Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

topic posted Sat, April 12, 2008 - 9:57 AM by  Avishai
What a bunch of dumbasses.
www.youtube.com/watch
posted by:
Avishai
Portland
  • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

    Sat, April 12, 2008 - 1:42 PM
    Avishai,

    www.youtube.com/watch
    It's not like Christians are pulling this stuff out of thin air. Much seems designed to provoke a negative reaction from Christians. Why associate Satanic themes to one's music if that’s not what one wants to promote?

    I know someone who goes to Joe Schimmel’s church in California. Schimmel does anti-rock, pop, and rap music talks and videos. I’m curious what you think of this clip?
    www.youtube.com/watch

    Peace,
    Peter
    • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

      Sat, April 12, 2008 - 2:25 PM
      <It's not like Christians are pulling this stuff out of thin air. Much seems designed to provoke a negative reaction from Christians. Why associate Satanic themes to one's music if that’s not what one wants to promote?>

      Peter, I am not here to attack you. Please do not take this post as an attack on either you or on Christianity. You have said on many occasions that you are not political, and here you are stepping directly on a political controversy. FYI, Sarah Mclachlan is not a Satanist nor is she promoting Satanism or Satanic thought, practice, or philosophy. To modern non-Christian/oid feminists the story of Lilith has become the symbol of the female oppression which is institutionalized in Catholic and Christianoid religious practice and thought. Modern feminists have adopted the Gnostic interpretation of the Lilith story where Lilith escaped the tyranny or mad Yahweh and sought and found the Sophia or the spirit of the truth of the true creator/rix. Tales of Lilith's association with Satan stem from those Gnostic sects who claim that Satan was cast out of Heaven for refusing to accept Yahweh's illegal claims of sovereignty, and together Lucifer and Lilith work to free a deluded humanity. So Lilith has become a symbol of the female search for a non-oppressive spirituality.

      The putzes who put out this video are deliberately misrepresenting Mclachlan in their claims that she even cares enough about their idiocy to pay even negative attention to it, and the Lilith Fair has not toured in nearly 10 years and Mclachlan is too busy caring for her family to organize another one.
      • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

        Sat, April 12, 2008 - 5:28 PM
        Bill,

        The Wikipedia Lilith article begins "Lilith (Hebrew לילית) is a mythological female Mesopotamian storm demon associated with wind and was thought to be a bearer of disease, illness, and death. The figure of Lilith first appeared in a class of wind and storm demons or spirits as Lilitu, in Sumer, circa 3000 BC."
        I don't know what McLachlan believes, but Lilith seemed to be viewed as a negative figure, before Christianity. I would think Sarah knew this. It's not unrealistic for a Satanist (whatever that is) to be in music.

        <To modern non-Christian/oid feminists the story of Lilith has become the symbol of the female oppression which is institutionalized in Catholic and Christianoid religious practice and thought.>
        I can understand that. So, if Sarah's music is specifically anti-Christian (for whatever reason), why is it wrong for a Pastor to point that it.

        Actually my Satanic comment had more to do with the MTV commercial.
        I'd also like to hear thoughts about the second clip, and thoughts concerning the influence of music on culture. As I see it, gangster rap music has a very negative effect on Black culture and culture in general. I wonder if others feel the same about other forms of music, or if it's just the "Fundies"?

        Peace,
        Peter
        • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

          Sat, April 12, 2008 - 5:46 PM
          <I don't know what McLachlan believes, but Lilith seemed to be viewed as a negative figure, before Christianity. I would think Sarah knew this. It's not unrealistic for a Satanist (whatever that is) to be in music.>

          Peter, Lilith was shared between quite a few cultures. If you check the Nag Hammadi links Krampus provided us, you will find many fascinating Gnostic legends regarding Lilith. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, Lilith has become a symbol of female empowerment here in the 21st Century. If the Christianoids do not like it, they are more than welcome to lump it. They can make as many U-Tube videos they want and whip as many dead horses as they please. It keeps them too busy to blow up Women's clinics or assassinate abortion doctors, and provides us with hours of harmless entertainment from these most amusing of quacks.

          <I'd also like to hear thoughts about the second clip, and thoughts concerning the influence of music on culture. As I see it, gangster rap music has a very negative effect on Black culture and culture in general. I wonder if others feel the same about other forms of music, or if it's just the "Fundies"?>

          I understand your point about Gangster Rap; it is a form of oppression funded and promoted by fat white executives who enjoy seeing their racist stereotypes reinforced, while many sects of Christianity are a form of social oppression promoted by fat white executives to organize people to vote against their best interests. In other words, I see little difference between the two.
          • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

            Thu, April 17, 2008 - 9:22 AM
            >>>It keeps them too busy to blow up Women's clinics or assassinate abortion doctors,<<<

            If only that were true. The Christianoid cult(s), however, have enough deluded adherents to be able to handle a great many assaults Christianity at the same time by assigning various tasks to various pawns.

            With love under will,

            Bob, Adastra, WOJ
        • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

          Sun, April 13, 2008 - 8:46 AM
          >>>It's not unrealistic for a Satanist (whatever that is) to be in music.<<<

          Peter, at times like this, I remember the statements by one of my early teachers on "Satanic" or "evil" music. He said that there is something divine in music, something that Satan can attack, but not completely destroy, so any music can inspire and entertain regardless of whether someone has paired the melody with lyrics inspired by "Satanism" or any other perceived evil.

          And I've often said that given the need to ask someone to hold my wallet for a time (for whatever reason), I would trust a Satanist before a Southern Baptist. The Baptist would need only about five minutes or less to decide that God had placed my money in his hand so that he could use it for a "worthy cause" like supporting his church or his favorite charity or simply buying himself a good meal because he's a bit hungry. The Satanist believes that any dishonesty on his part will result in his being harmed very quickly to balance any harm he has done to me (or anyone else). Of course, this applies only to Satanism as an organized religion, not to teenagers acting out their rebellion against society or psychopaths using Satanism as their excuse for acting out the diseases of their thoughts.

          I once had a chance to look at some training material from the Temple of Set, which claims (or used to claim--it's been awhile) to be a Satanic organization. To my surprise in view of the propaganda levelled at Satanists of all kinds, I found this statement in the lesson plans, "Satanists revere blood, so long as it REMAINS IN THE ORIGINAL CONTAINER." The original container is, of course, the circulatory system of the animal, or human, whose blood it is. So much for horror stories about human sacrifice and other crimes on the part of Satanists.

          In truth, I don't think Satanism of that kind has really anything to do with the Biblical myth of Satan. Modern Satanists seem to be people who have listened to what the Christianoids say about God and decided that if God really is the typical Oriental despot the churches describe, then the only thing a self-respecting human can do is to sign on with the opposition. In this, I find a kind of rational thought, except for the fact that I disagree with the idea of God as a cruel, power-drunk, absolute monarch.

          With love under will,

          Bob, Adastra,
          The Wizzard of Jacksonville
          • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

            Sun, April 13, 2008 - 11:18 PM
            Adastra,

            <so any music can inspire and entertain regardless of whether someone has paired the melody with lyrics inspired by "Satanism" or any other perceived evil.>
            I meant to refer to lyrics, rather than music.

            <Modern Satanists seem to be people who have listened to what the Christianoids say about God and decided that if God really is the typical Oriental despot the churches describe, then the only thing a self-respecting human can do is to sign on with the opposition.>
            I agree that much seems to be fueled by more of an "anti-Christian" sentiment than "pro-Satan" sentiment. Still, the end result is people taking opposing positions. Is it "dumb" to point out/recognize that some sets of cultural and/or religious values create opposites?

            Peace,
            Peter
            • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

              Mon, April 14, 2008 - 11:07 AM
              >>>I meant to refer to lyrics, rather than music.<<<

              The lyrics are part of the music experience, but ony a part. Whatever fault we might find in the lyrics is offset by the uplifting experience provided by good music. Of course, this means music that is worth listening too. I don't get rap, especially gangsta rap, and I don't care for a lot of gospel, since I do object to much of what I hear in the lyrics (which somewhat contradicts my first statement, but then I never said I m always consistent). I also find most country and western "music" more annoying than entertaining; can't understand why it's so popular in Japan.

              >>>Is it "dumb" to point out/recognize that some sets of cultural and/or religious values create opposites?<<<

              Of course not, but it can be a bit ignorant to assume that just because Pat Robertson finds something evil, that it is, therefore, evil. I would suspect that anything condemned by Robertson or any of those other televangelist Ronald McDonalds must have some virtue to recommend it or they wouldn't be so quick to criticize.

              I remember one of my favorite scenes in "Illuminatus", a scene in which Padre Pederastia (a truly inspired name for an unfrocked Catholic priest) was leading a group trying to summon the devil (though I don't remember why they wanted to do anything so useless). When the Prince of Darkness began to manifest in the circle, the summoners felt an overwhelming sense of pure, threatening evil and the priest commanded him not to appear in that form. Apparently willing to oblige his fans, the devil switched his style and began to appearas an evil tempter, with a foul, corrupting sweetness. Again, he was commanded not to come in that form, but in "the form which thou customarily usest as thou goest about thy business on the earth."

              At that point, all threatening appearances vanished and the devil appeared in the circle, but he didn't look frightening at all, he looked just like Billy Graham. And the next sound heard was me, laughing my ass off--"the form thou usest when going about thy business on the earth, indeed."

              With love under will,

              Bob, Adastra,
              The Wizzard of Jacksonville
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

          Sun, April 13, 2008 - 5:12 PM
          Peter,

          As has been pointed out, Lilith means different things to different people. I don't know what any actual Satanists believe, but I can tell you that a great many Pagans don't consider her to be a demon at all, but a Goddess of women, applicable to any situation a woman might face.

          Granted, the idea can bother Christians (and at least one Jewish woman I've talked to) because of some traditions' holding her to be the mother of all demons. But none of the people I know who revere Lilith do so specifically as an anti-Christian stance. In other words, it's not a statement of how anti-Christian they are. More, it's just that in the West (America in particular) where Christianity is by and large the default assumption for a number of presumptions, Lilith represents the ultimate "fuck you" to God, the Church, and Misogyny. It's not intended to be anti-Christian, even though it can be perceived that way. It boils down to empowerment.

          <<<So, if Sarah's music is specifically anti-Christian (for whatever reason), why is it wrong for a Pastor to point that it.>>>

          To begin with, we're not talking about a Pastor "merely" pointing out that MacLachlan's music is anti-Christian. For another, while I would hardly say that it's wrong to say of an artist's music that it is anti-Christian, in the sense that it's somehow bad for them to do so, I would say that in more a few cases, music that has been labeled as anti-Christian is music that was not examined by the labeler. In several cases I know of, a given song's lyrics were, upon examination, a criticism not of Christianity per se, but of hypocrisy within a church or amongst self-styled believers. I've seen enough songs maligned as satanic/anti-christian when they were actually accurate social commentaries on the state of mainstream religion, that I'm automatically suspicious now whenever I see a song smeared as evil. And between the (out of context!) quotes in the video in question and the lyrics of "Dear God" posted (which I looked up in full) I would hardly conclude that Lilith's a satanist. Hell, the song that's posted on that video is meant to be portrayed by the maker as anti-Christian, but if you actually read the damn song it's more of a plaintive cry to God.
          • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

            Sun, April 13, 2008 - 11:37 PM
            Nimbrethil,

            <It's not intended to be anti-Christian, even though it can be perceived that way.>
            I understand. Still, a few of you have told me, It doesn't matter that I didn't intend to be offensive, you were offended. I think that applies with of how Sarah's lyrics are perceived, and with how Joe's videos are perceived.

            <To begin with, we're not talking about a Pastor "merely" pointing out that MacLachlan's music is anti-Christian... And between the (out of context!) quotes in the video in question and the lyrics of "Dear God" posted (which I looked up in full) I would hardly conclude that Lilith's a satanist. Hell, the song that's posted on that video is meant to be portrayed by the maker as anti-Christian, but if you actually read the damn song it's more of a plaintive cry to God.>
            Sarah's "Dear God" song ends:
            “The hurt I see helps to compound
            That Father, Son and Holy Ghost
            Is just somebody's unholy hoax
            And if you're up there you'd perceive
            That my heart's here upon my sleeve.
            If there's one thing I don't believe in.....
            It's you.....
            Dear God.”

            Like I said, I don't know what Sarah believes, in real life (she may even believe differently now than she did when the song was recorded). The song plainly claims the Father Son and Holy Ghost is a hoax and a disbelieve in God, but reading a few of her songs I get more of a sense of sadness than anger.

            In any case, I posted the additional links, because I'd like to know what impact you think music lyrics have on society, especially youth. Maybe I'm sensitive to it, because I'm a parent of teenagers. If you're not a parent, it may be a non-issue.

            Peace,
            Peter
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

              Mon, April 14, 2008 - 12:13 AM
              Peter,

              Did you read the entire song? Or just the final bit? There's more to the song, including the final lyrics, than the immediate assumption of pure disbelief. Here, I'll help.

              Dear God,
              Hope you got the letter and
              I pray you can make it better down here.
              I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer
              But all the people that you made in your image,
              See them starving on their feet
              'Cause they don't get enough to eat
              From God
              I can't believe in you.

              Dear God,
              Sorry to disturb you, but
              I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
              We all need a big reduction in the amount of tears
              And all the people that you made in your image,
              See them fighting in the street
              'Cause they can't make opinions meet

              About God,
              I can't believe in you.

              Did you make disease, and the diamond blue?
              Did you make mankind after we made you?
              And the devil too?!

              Dear God,
              Don't know if you noticed, but...
              Your name is on a lot of quotes in this book,
              Us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look,
              And all the people that you made in your image,
              Still believing that junk is true
              Well I know it ain't, and so do you

              Dear God,
              I can't believe in...
              I don't believe in...

              I Wont believe in heaven OR hell.
              No saints, no sinners, no devil as well.
              No pearly gates, no thorny crown.
              You're always letting us humans down.
              The wars you bring, the babes you drown.
              Those lost at sea and never found,
              And it's the same the whole world 'round.
              The hurt I see helps to compound
              The Father, The Son and Holy Ghost
              Is just somebody's unholy hoax
              And if you're up there you'd perceive
              That my heart's here upon my sleeve.
              If there's one thing I don't believe in.....

              It's you.....
              Dear God.

              I'm not a parent, no, but I remember the bullshit in school, and from my parents. It was somewhat of a non-issue for me personally because the kind of music I enjoyed back then was the certified safe kind, though my parents had plenty of opinions on the issue and made them clear. I also had friend who did listen to a lot of controversial music and consequently took a lot of flack from the local churches. My favorite one was when my friend Kerry was informed by a churchgoer that she would pray for Kerry not to go to hell--because Kerry was wearing a Metallica t-shirt! (The result being that Kerry made that shirt her Speshul Church Attire thenceforth)

              But my thing about music is this: If you don't like it, DON'T BLOODY LISTEN TO IT. Turn off the fuckin' radio!

              On intent to offend: you're damn right that the intent of person A doesn't mean a damn thing to whether or not person B should take offense. But when it comes to music, and poetry, and books, and any other form of art...no one holds a gun to your head. There's a lot of music out there that I find offensive. My response is to not listen to it. I don't buy it, when it comes on the radio, I change the station. If someone asks me to listen to it I decline. If I'm given a choice in the matter I request some _other_ music to listen to. If not, and someone else is listening to it, I ignore it if I can, or leave the room if I can't.
              • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                Mon, April 14, 2008 - 9:32 AM
                Nimbrethil,

                <Did you read the entire song?>
                Yes. In fact, I read several of her songs. Many seem to have spiritual themes.

                <There's more to the song, including the final lyrics, than the immediate assumption of pure disbelief.>
                From the first verses, "Dear God" tells why she “can’t believe” in God. Because people starve, and because of religious wars, “I can’t believe in you.” Then the belief that God is a manmade concept. That the Bible is full of junk that crazy people wrote, but she knows isn’t true. She does not believe in heaven or hell, saints, sinners, the devil, heavenly Jerusalem, or the crucifixion. All of the suffering she sees has convinced her that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a hoax. And God knows that she doesn’t believe in God.
                As I read it, that’s pretty much the message of the song. Did I miss something?

                <There's a lot of music out there that I find offensive. My response is to not listen to it.>
                When MTV runs a commercial that states “Some people say this music is loud, stupid, excessive, vulgar, and appeals to the basest animal instincts. That’s why we play it.” I think parents need to be warned. I think this kind of information is mostly for parents who don’t know what their kids are listening to.

                My son is a drummer, who listens to different kinds of music, because of the different beats. He was recently listening to a song with the vocalist making this noise that I couldn’t understand. My son said the group plays “Christian Metal.” When I asked what the song was about, he took out the lyric sheet and tried to follow along with the “screamer.” He couldn’t follow a single verse with the words right in front of him. But he likes the drummer. I still don’t get why the lyrics are unintelligible. Maybe it helps satisfy a teen's innate need for things their parents don’t understand. ;) LOL!

                In any case, I don’t think it’s dumb to be informed about the music your kids are listening to, what the artists believe, and what kinds of ideas they promote. I think it’s smart.

                Peace,
                Peter
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                  Mon, April 14, 2008 - 1:59 PM
                  <<<In any case, I don’t think it’s dumb to be informed about the music your kids are listening to, what the artists believe, and what kinds of ideas they promote. I think it’s smart.>>>>

                  This is one of those times when your statements really irritate me, Peter, because no one HAS suggested it's dumb. No reasonable person would object to the statement above...but that's NOT what's being argued against.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                    Mon, April 14, 2008 - 6:42 PM
                    Nimbrethil,

                    <This is one of those times when your statements really irritate me, Peter, because no one HAS suggested it's dumb.>
                    This thread began with the statement "What a bunch of dumbasses."
                    The title of this thread suggests that "fundies" as a group, don't like Sarah McLachlan. The comment was not limited to Joe as an individual. I was included in the "bunch", since I have presented myself here as a fundie. By what standard is Joe a fundie? Could it be by the same standard that makes Crowley a Satanist.

                    <but that's NOT what's being argued against.>
                    The McLachlan clip was apparently edited from a 10 hour program. Of the 10 hours, less than 2 minutes was devoted to Sarah McLachlan. I haven't seen the original program. What is being argued against?

                    Peace,
                    Peter
                    • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                      Mon, April 14, 2008 - 11:09 PM
                      <This thread began with the statement "What a bunch of dumbasses."
                      The title of this thread suggests that "fundies" as a group, don't like Sarah McLachlan. The comment was not limited to Joe as an individual. I was included in the "bunch", since I have presented myself here as a fundie. By what standard is Joe a fundie? Could it be by the same standard that makes Crowley a Satanist.>

                      Peter, my mother always said that if you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas. So if you are going to identify with a bunch of fundie mutts don't go crying when you start itching. You keep telling us you are not political and then you start defending political fundies.
                      • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                        Tue, April 15, 2008 - 2:35 PM
                        <So if you are going to identify with a bunch of fundie mutts don't go crying when you start itching.>
                        I'm not clear what the complaint is. In fact, I might welcome these particular fleas.

                        <You keep telling us you are not political and then you start defending political fundies.>
                        I'm not advocating legislation, or calling for votes. To me, this conversation is about the influence of music on culture, and especially children. You may consider that political.

                        Peace,
                        Peter
                        • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                          Thu, April 17, 2008 - 10:02 AM
                          >>>I might welcome these particular fleas.<<<

                          So you don't care if you contract bubonic plague of the soul?

                          The questions to be asked are these, "Who appointed this minister (whether fundamentalist or not) to be the official guardian of public morals? Do we really need a censor motivated by reliigious bias?" It is one thing to remind parents that they should monitor what entertainment their children are watching and listening to, but quite another to point out specific music, television or movies that offend the preachers very narrow sense of propriety. He is trying to remove the decision from the parents and tell them what specific artists, themes, genres they should forbid their children on the grounds that he, personally, finds these things offensive. Add the fact that much of the time he doesn't begin to understand what the entertainment is really about, what it is really saying and you have the makings of another petty tyrant in embryo. This is one casee where I think abortion is not merely a right, but a duty. <G>

                          Again, you are merely endorsing the opinions of one ignorant pastor whom you seem to trust simply because he calls himself a pastor. I may be mistaken in your motivation, but that's the way it looks at the moment. This clown is an imposter who forgets that the title "minister'" originally means "servant", not "master". The minister is appointed to serve his congregation, not to rule them; too many ministers have forgotten that, or worse, never learned it at all. And too many ministers are not appointed by God, but have thrust themselves forward on their own initiative because they see the ministry as a fine profession, where they can be paid (often well-paid) merely for talking to people. Not exactly hard labor, neh?

                          If you remember some of what I have shared before about the fact that the New Testament describes the church as a very small group, chosen for specific purposes in God's plan, but not numerous because our role doesn't necessitate great numbers, it should be obvious from simple arithmetic that most of the so-called ministers around today in the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or perhaps even millions are imposters who have not been called by God and are simply professional busybodies who believe turning their collars backwards give them license to meddle in the lives of everyone around them. As human beings, we are responsible to our God, not to our servants. What insane version of faith gives our servants power over our lives? power that belongs to God alone?

                          You seem to suffer, Peter, from a mistaken belief that having faith means that taking a position on any issue means that you are required to hold onto that position forever even in the face of clear evidence that you may have made a mistake. This is not the case. Faith requires adherence to one's fundamental values. Christian faith should include the fundamental values of truth, freedom, love, compassion, forgiveness and humility before God. Or such is my belief. In the words of Cromwell, "I beseech you, consider that you may be mistaken."

                          If I have mistaken your motives in these matters, please forgive me; we can only know you by what you show us on our monitors and whatever conclusions we can draw from what we see.

                          With love under will,

                          Bob, Adastra,
                          The Wizzard of Jacksonville
                          • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                            Thu, April 17, 2008 - 7:40 PM
                            Adastra,

                            I have a last minute trip, but wanted to respond briefly before I go.

                            Joe's approach is very different from mine. I doubt Joe would care what I have to say about his videos, as he thinks I'm a heretic. I don't expect you to agree with all that Joe presents. This conversation for me is about the influence of music. Many other people seem to think that music videos are benign. I disagree. I'm not clear why people are so offended by Joe's video, but can ignore the hateful messages of gangster rap and metal videos and post as if they have no impact on people. Millions more people are watching MTV and BET than have even heard of Joe's videos.

                            <In the words of Cromwell, "I beseech you, consider that you may be mistaken.">
                            About the cultural influence of music videos, or something else?

                            I may be a few days getting back to you.

                            Peace,
                            Peter
                            • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                              Thu, April 17, 2008 - 8:37 PM
                              Peter, ya came on here and sidetracked the whole thread with your AGENDA. I wasn't talking about "gangsta rap" I was talking about innocuous folks like Sarah Mclachlan, which is WHY it's ridiculous. Sure, she managed to sneak the "fuck" word through on several stations with "building a mystery" but that's about it, not saying stuff like "Nigga you full of shit Bitch now what is this, trick Some new shit Straight from yo hottub piss" (actual rap lyrics) Which is why it's so ridiculous to be going after a folky pop singer and a singer from the 1920's. OK? Irony? Oh, wait, I forgot, dogmatic folk don't "get" irony.
                              • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                                Wed, April 23, 2008 - 9:06 PM
                                Avashai,

                                <Peter, ya came on here and sidetracked the whole thread with your AGENDA. I wasn't talking about "gangsta rap" I was talking about innocuous folks like Sarah Mclachlan, which is WHY it's ridiculous. >
                                I asked you a question in my first post that you never answered. Don't claim I have an agenda, because you chose to ignore me. What makes people innocuous, what they sing about, or how they sing it?

                                <Sure, she managed to sneak the "fuck" word through on several stations>
                                What some consider innocuous others may consider insidious.

                                Peace,
                                Peter
                            • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                              Sun, April 20, 2008 - 7:06 PM
                              >>><In the words of Cromwell, "I beseech you, consider that you may be mistaken.">
                              About the cultural influence of music videos, or something else?<<<

                              Something else. I quoted him out of context because his words echoed my own thoughts, not because the context was relevant. Cromwell, spoke those words to the Irish rebels who declined to abandon the Catholic faith to become Puritans (at least, I think that was the occasion). Apparently, the Irish were not eager to trade one stupid religion for another equally stupid religion.

                              It is signigicant that Cromwell would probably have agreed with the video opposing Sarah what's her name's music, not because the video was right but because it caters to the same urge to meddle in the lives of strangers that Cromwell and the Puritans so dearly loved.

                              With love under will,

                              Bob, Adastra,
                              The Wizzard of Jacksonville
                        • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                          Sun, May 4, 2008 - 11:53 AM
                          I love being Reformed Christian. It liberates me for fundies and makes Jesus message so straight and clear.

                          The fundies block the real message of Christianity and I am now liberated from them and now believe in that faith without fundies BS. It is good day.
                    • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                      Tue, April 15, 2008 - 3:29 PM
                      <<since I have presented myself here as a fundie.>>

                      Note to Bill: Just recently u told me in no uncertain terms that Peter wasn't a fundie, apparently, not only is he a "literalist" but a self-proclaimed FUNDIE as well... :)(:

                      Note to Peter: How or why is Crowley a Satanist and would u plz enlighten us how one can be a Literalist and a Fundie? How does it make u feel when time after time and fact after fact is presented to u that completely controverts your positions, while u just brush them aside and continue to make unscientific conclusions based on your dogma..... there are psychological conditions attributed to people who can't "get it" or modify their positions when presented with incontestable facts..... u are in danger of being labeled as such! :)(:


                      • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                        Tue, April 15, 2008 - 4:11 PM
                        David,

                        <Note to Peter: How or why is Crowley a Satanist>
                        He isn't.

                        <and would u plz enlighten us how one can be a Literalist and a Fundie?>
                        I don't know. I never said I was a Literalist. That's Bill's label.

                        <How does it make u feel when time after time and fact after fact is presented to u that completely controverts your positions, while u just brush them aside and continue to make unscientific conclusions based on your dogma.....>
                        What are you talking about?

                        Peace,
                        Peter
                      • Re: Boy, fundie's don't like Sarah Mclachlan

                        Thu, April 17, 2008 - 10:21 AM
                        >>>not only is he a "literalist" but a self-proclaimed FUNDIE as well... :)(:<<<

                        David, one of the defining characteristics of fundamentalism is that fundamentalists insist that the words of the Bible are to be understood in the literal sense, despite the fact that the Bible itself tells us this is not so and also that fundamentalists don't actually do it. They don't even understand the "literal" sense of the words; it would be more accurate to say that they understand the "traditional" sense of the words and simply pretend that is the literal sense. So being, or claiming to be, a fundamentalist means claiming to be a literalist as well, though Peter does pay more attention to the literal sense of the words rather than the traditional sense, for which he is to be commended IMNSHO. I believe Bill is right in describing him as a literalist, but not a fundamentalist. Since Peter calls himself a fundamentalist, I will simply say that I believe he is mistaken in that belief, possibly because, as a literalist, he believes the fundamentalists pretense that they follow the literal sense of the scriptures and that he (Peter) hasn't yet realized that they are either mistaken or lying in that pretense.

                        Of course, Peter has a perfect right to call himself a fundamentalist if he so chooses, but it would be a mistake to think that makes him one except in his own opinion of what a fundamentalist may be. I have seen Peter take positions that no fundamentalist would ever agree with, such as the complete humanity of Jesus, the idea of God as a unity not a trinity, or as that ultimate weasel word, a "triunity".

                        It's okay; you can't be expected to make fine doctrinal distinctions in a faith you do not share, just as I would not be qualified to explain fine doctrinal distinctions in Buddhism to Doc Awkward. I am somewhat familiar with Buddhist teachings, but Doc IS a Buddhist, so his understanding of the faith is much greater than mine.

                        And, in religion, it is true, there is a lot of posturing, declamation and outright hot air. <G>

                        With love under will,

                        Bob, Adastra,
                        The Wizzard of Jacksonville