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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Thu, May 28, 2009 - 2:42 PMAlcohol is a crutch, and so is religion. So how in the coon dog fuck can you kick one crutch using another one? You cant. All you can do is wallow yourself further into mental oblivion. It is fucking retarded. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Thu, May 28, 2009 - 3:16 PMThe AA approach is absurd from the get go. The first concept they drum into your head is to a accept that you are powerless over addictions. They then tell members that will power does not work and and that only god can keep them from drinking again. The truth is that self will if the key to stopping an addiction. Many people use the powerless BS as an excuse to drink again.
At least some courts have recognized the religious nature of AA and have ruled that forcing people to attend 12 step meeings violates the concept of separation of church and state. AA splits hairs by claiming they are spiritual and not religious. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sat, May 30, 2009 - 8:49 AM<<<At least some courts have recognized the religious nature of AA and have ruled that forcing people to attend 12 step meeings violates the concept of separation of church and state. AA splits hairs by claiming they are spiritual and not religious.>>>
I have seen people that have had to attend those meetings who were Atheist and they were told their "Higher Power" could be named anything, like Charlie or Bob. They were also told it could be a doorknob or a book...It is pathetic when a person does not have control of their own self discipline.
Any time there is a rule mandating the recognition of a "Higher Power", that is religious. That hair splitting bullshit doesnt wash with me because spiritual and religion go hand in hand.
Main Entry: spir·i·tu·al·i·ty
Pronunciation: \ˌspir-i-chə-ˈwa-lə-tē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural spir·i·tu·al·i·ties
Date: 15th century
1 : something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such
2 : clergy
3 : sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4 : the quality or state of being spiritual
Main Entry: 1spir·i·tu·al
Pronunciation: \ˈspir-i-chə-wəl, -i-chəl, -ich-wəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Late Latin; Anglo-French espirital, spiritual, from Late Latin spiritualis, from Latin, of breathing, of wind, from spiritus
Date: 14th century
1: of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : incorporeal <spiritual needs>
2 a: of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs> b: ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority> <lords spiritual>
3: concerned with religious values
4: related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir>
5 a: of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b: of, relating to, or involving spiritualism :
No matter how you slice it, they are religious... -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sun, June 7, 2009 - 5:04 PMBut if you slice it just right, it's so d'licious...
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Mon, June 15, 2009 - 9:00 AM>>>their "Higher Power" could be named anything, like Charlie or Bob.<<<
Dear Adam,
I would be honored to become your "Higher Power" if such is your will. But if you ever have a need to cure an addiction, I would be happier to give you the magick spell I cooked up that helped me quit smoking almost sixteen years ago.
It is, however, quite accurate to say that one crutch cannot cure another. Religion is indeed a crutch for people unable to face responsibility for their lives. And I do distinguish spirit and religion. From my perspective, religion means surrender to an external source for validation. Spirituality means taking personal responsibility for one's life and purposes. A distinction perhaps too subtle for some, but for me, it makes a world of difference. I present these personal definitions in the interest of full disclosure and in order to avoid misunderstanding.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra.
The Wizzard of Jacksonville -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Mon, June 15, 2009 - 12:57 PMBob
>>>their "Higher Power" could be named anything, like Charlie or Bob.<<<
Dear Adam,
I would be honored to become your "Higher Power" if such is your will. But if you ever have a need to cure an addiction, I would be happier to give you the magick spell I cooked up that helped me quit smoking almost sixteen years ago.>>>
I appreciate the gesture, but I am the highest power in my life. That is why when I get ready to stop doing something, I just do it. I quit smoking for 7 years. I picked them back up when I got injured because boredom really hacks on me. When I get my surgery I'm going to show you how it is done. I will be documenting my weight with photos on here once I get started and I will be starting a thread in "Raw Wisdom" where people can join me and even compete with me. I am really looking forward to that because I will not be smoking or drinking beer, and I will be working out as my recovery permits. My weight is hovering around 243lbs. My personal limit is 250, but I have not come near that as my routine keeps me at 243. My target weight will be 165lbs and I will reach it through diet and exercise. The fun part will be the photos and seeing the results and seeing other people joining me. I have an excellent diet plan that allows you to eat most anything you want as long as it is at the right time of the day and the right portions.
<<<It is, however, quite accurate to say that one crutch cannot cure another. Religion is indeed a crutch for people unable to face responsibility for their lives. And I do distinguish spirit and religion. From my perspective, religion means surrender to an external source for validation. Spirituality means taking personal responsibility for one's life and purposes. A distinction perhaps too subtle for some, but for me, it makes a world of difference. I present these personal definitions in the interest of full disclosure and in order to avoid misunderstanding.>>>
Thanks Bob, it makes a big difference when people know certain things. Your perspective on religion and spirituality is interesting. For me it is important to rely on myself and my abilities rather than anything spiritual. I dont have the need for superstition.
Main Entry: su·per·sti·tion
Pronunciation: \ˌsü-pər-ˈsti-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English supersticion, from Anglo-French, from Latin superstition-, superstitio, from superstit-, superstes standing over (as witness or survivor), from super- + stare to stand — more at stand
Date: 13th century
1 a: a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation b: an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition
2: a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary
In my opinion, spirituality is not reality. It is imagined, not real, and a very shoddy foundation to shore up a persons life.
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sun, June 21, 2009 - 7:31 AM>>>I appreciate the gesture, but I am the highest power in my life.<<<
Dude, that wasn't a gesture, it was a somewhat snarky quip. Sorry that I didn't add an LoL or a ROFL to clue you in. In sober fact, I believe that everyone should be the highest power in his/her own life. The responsibility of being someone else's higher power is too dangerous and way too much work That's what "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" means in my current spiritual path. It certainly is not to be misunderstood as, "Do what someone else wills shall be the whole of the Law." , especially if the someone else comes down to "anyone else."
>>>For me it is important to rely on myself and my abilities rather than anything spiritual.<<<
Hello, how does that differ from my previous comment, "Spirituality means taking personal responsibility for one's life and purposes?" Can we please get past meaningless labels and actually look at what is going on? So far as I am concerned, anything that contributes to my own Light, Life, Love and Liberty falls under the heading of "spiritual." Anything that falls under the heading of "Darkness, Death, Despair and Despotism falls under the heading of Satanism. Not that I believe in a literal Satan, you understand, but the word is great invective.
Adam, I hate to put it this way, but you and I are on the same page in these matters. It's simply that you seem to keep missing the page number. LOL. Just rhetoric.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sun, June 21, 2009 - 9:08 AMBob,
<<<Adam, I hate to put it this way, but you and I are on the same page in these matters. It's simply that you seem to keep missing the page number. LOL. Just rhetoric.>>>
Ha!Ha! I think the reason we are on different pages is because I have chosen to accept the definition of "spiritual" as:
Main Entry: 1spir·i·tu·al
Pronunciation: \ˈspir-i-chə-wəl, -i-chəl, -ich-wəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Late Latin; Anglo-French espirital, spiritual, from Late Latin spiritualis, from Latin, of breathing, of wind, from spiritus
Date: 14th century
1: of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : incorporeal <spiritual needs>
2 a: of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs> b: ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority> <lords spiritual>
3: concerned with religious values
4: related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir>
5 a: of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b: of, relating to, or involving spiritualism :
Meaning that I do not care to relate anything in my life to that which I find does not exist. Spirit=Ghost, and I dont believe in ghosts.
>>>For me it is important to rely on myself and my abilities rather than anything spiritual.<<<
Hello, how does that differ from my previous comment, "Spirituality means taking personal responsibility for one's life and purposes?">>>
The difference is that I do not rely on an imagined "spirit" or "soul" as an incorporeal part of myself that benifits from moral progress or accepting responsibility. Spirituality as is defined in your post does not exist in the dictionary, so I do not use it in that manner. I am not trying to be a smartass or anything. I just keep myself firmly rooted in reality and "spirituality" in my opinion is violative of that which is real.
<<<Can we please get past meaningless labels and actually look at what is going on? So far as I am concerned, anything that contributes to my own Light, Life, Love and Liberty falls under the heading of "spiritual." Anything that falls under the heading of "Darkness, Death, Despair and Despotism falls under the heading of Satanism. Not that I believe in a literal Satan, you understand, but the word is great invective.>>>
Anything that falls under the heading of "Darkness, death, despair and depotism" are things that exist as a fact of life for me. I certainly try to avoid the bad things, but I acknowledge their existance. For me to call it "Satanism" seems silly to me because I see satanism as the rediculous belief in matters satanic. That too is nonexistant to me. I keep these things in order because when speaking to others I would not be understood completely. I believe this is why we are not on the same page at times.
Hummingbird,
I have seen "SOS" which is the "Secular Organization for Sobriety", and I have found it to be inclusive of religious based ideologies just like AA. And they still expect you to follow the "Big Book" written by Bill who started AA. You are still required to admit that you are powerless too, which I disagree with totally. Failure to control ones actions does not equal being powerless to do so RIGHT NOW! In fact, to even set foot in one of those meetings evidences the power one has taken over their actions to do so instead of going to a bar. Just being there blows the "powerless" thing out of the water. Because they were powerful enough over alcohol to seek help...
Just because one gets as fucked up as a soup sandwich every time they drink alcohol and do stupid shit does not mean they are powerless over their lives. It just means they cant handle it and dont need to drink.Ha!Ha!
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Thu, May 28, 2009 - 4:54 PM -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Thu, May 28, 2009 - 5:17 PM -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sat, May 30, 2009 - 5:22 PM
Volumes and volumes have been written about addiction and recovery. There is now enough current research to suggest that addictions run in families, people with "thrill-seeking behaviours" tend to become addicted to substances most often as well as those with various levels of neuroticism and obsessive-compulsive characteristics. However, not all addicts are dysthymic. As soon as typical addictive personality characteristics and traits are identified, someone who does not fit the expected construct appears and this causes a need for an exception - something like a "transitory addiction," (for example, becoming addicted to pain killers after an extremely painful surgery.)
Psychology is a soft-science, not like mathematics, and as such, will always draw the wrath and ire of those who cannot conceptualize the fact that all behaviour is not predictable or clearly understood. For purposes of this thread, the 12 Step Programs described here are clearly faith based and are only marginally successful for some of those addicts who have a highly developed religious background. Important questions are not asked and most problems are not addressed in these 12 Step Programs and as a result, we need to stop depending on them.... but that would then cost millions upon millions of dollars, that are just not there for anything having to do with mental health or prevention of any other health problems.... we typically treat rather than prevent most medical problems and it costs far more to provide far less in terms of overall longevity. :)(:
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sun, May 31, 2009 - 12:02 PMDavid
<<<we typically treat rather than prevent most medical problems and it costs far more to provide far less in terms of overall longevity.>>>
You are so very right in all that you have posted here. But this part of your statement holds such profound truth that really needs to be addressed by society. I see the D.A.R.E. program instituted in many schools around the country, but they are more of a snitch program than one that addresses the root causes of addiction and how to prevent them.
Although it has endured, it has had its problems.
Does it work?
Criticism and lack of money caused some districts to drop the program.
www.dare.com/home/Hometo...ome_back.asp
They have police officers go in and talk to the kids about how to identify drugs and what happens to people who use them. But it never focuses on the deeper social and psychological factors that lead to addiction and abuse. And the one drug that sticks out in my mind is ALCOHOL. Because here the adults are saying how bad it is, but they sell it in every convenience store in America. You have television glorifying the outrageous "Spring Break" parties with kegs of beer and funnels to do beer bongs. What kind of message does this send? Then you have the religious right who preach total abstinance, but then the kids see the other people doing these things and having fun. And those who fall for the religious crap end up with feelings of guilt because they can not resist the temptation to have fun and find excitement in their lives. While the others who do refrain from those activities feel left out and cling to the false image of GOD as their ever present accepting peer, which is psychological mindfuck in of itself. And they end up exhibiting other mental illnesses besides addiction.
Then you have AA there to reinforce GOD as the higher power that will deliver them from addiction. When they are successful, they attribute that success to GOD instead of themselves, and become addicted to the religion as their crutch. The more they see it is bullshit, the more likely they are to relapse. It is pitiful.
I think one thing that should be taught and stressed in school from the beginning is SELF DISCIPLINE. It is paramount to understand the power of self and what can be accomplished through self discipline. JMO -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sun, May 31, 2009 - 5:18 PM
We are on the exact same page here Adam! :)(: The idea that most people in America believe (incorrectly) that mental illness is some form of "weakness" of the individual, (hence the paucity of funding and programs to assist those who are "weak in the head." )
As far as the D.A.R.E. Program goes, it can be useful in some instances, however, this and other programs are a poor substitute for one on one parenting... scaring kids to keep them off of drugs, when there are tremendous social pressures and media messages giving kids the opposite message, I think that this would be a stop-gap messure aimed at making those who promote the program more successful. FWIW, I did a dissertation on threatening learning vs. non-threatening learning - guess which type of learning is retained longer and considered much more useful to promoting overall learning? :)(:
<<<we typically treat rather than prevent most medical problems and it costs far more to provide far less in terms of overall longevity.>>>
This is so profoundly true and as a society, we need to develop a new paradigm to adress this issue. I wonder how bad things have to get before we can begin to see a change... we need to get over the "survival of the herd" mentality. Of course, not all is doom and gloom and one of the fastest ways to improve things is to reduce and/or eliminate the bible thumpers stranglehold on the gov't. purse-strings and school curriculums and to start a new dialogue based upon science and scientific facts....:)(: -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sun, June 7, 2009 - 3:42 PMAA and it's "12 step program" are a JOKE! it is simply just another Christian Organisation hiding behind the term "Spiritual Based" (your "higher power" could be Jesus,God,or even your bathroom toilet) and not "Jesus Based" and the ONLY reason this 100% Christian-based organisation operates this way is so it can get public funding..
It also doesn't work for over 90% of it's participants. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sun, June 7, 2009 - 5:06 PMFrom "Bill Cosby:Himself"
"You're the only one who understands me, toilet bowl...
thank you for being cool on the side...my wonderful
toilet bowl..." -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Thu, June 11, 2009 - 8:54 AMPersonally,I think worshipping The Flying Spaghetti Monster is better than worshipping your Toilet Bowl it's "Much tidier" even with the addition of "Tidy Bowl"!
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 4:12 PMI think you have all it wrong. The problem is that AA apologists don't argue their talking points correct. I happen to be a 12-step program by choice and I like it.
The reality is that we humans have spirituality wired into us. Most humans tapped into part of the brain and get recovery. In reality, they are tapping the part of brain that is spiritual and from that part of the brain, allows them to recovery from addiction. Since most people are wired by genetics to believe in God, they think that God did it. In reality, it is very strong support community that offers love and tolerance and tapping that part of the brain that is wired towards spirituality.
You are arguing the sheer willpower is the path to recovery. Yes, willpower can allow somebody to have a lifelong soberity but they are not content inside. They have to tough to dealing with emotions and coping with the life. There is a lot of toxic emotions that never get purged because people do not tap that part of the brain that deals with spiritual dimension. The AA steps are designed to rid oneself of toxic emotions and designed for a person to get into touch with the part of the brain where spirituality orginates from. The problem is that most people are not aware of this fact and they need to rely on cruch which is called God for recovery.
My life has got infinitely better via that program and I am strong believer in evolution. But look, this is just my viewpoint and I could be wrong. But I have to argue this because I know that I did not do it alone on sheer willpower.
I strongly believe in other recovery system such as SMART Recovery and I believe they can supplement AA. In my county, Orange, I will be in charge of the non 12-step recovery program. There is NO other alternatives to AA in a county of 3,000,000 outside of Christian faith-based solution such as Celebrate Recovery.
Look if you any alternatives or solutions to make my life managable other than AA, be my guest to tell the path. Tell me how my life will be better and how your program through me will make my life better. Tell that your path will allow me to have more sernity in life than what AA is giving me right now,
It is sad to see one of the largest county in America that this task falls to an austic GS-11, step 4 auditor for DOD but I doing this to make my life more manageable. And it should not be that a guy in the AA program is the county coordinator but that is the truth,
But again, how many AA aplogists argue the subject arguement, very few. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 5:00 PMPart of my issue with AA is the lie that we are powerless. If people actually are convinced they are powerless it very often leads to a slip. A program to deal with addictions should be encouraging people to believe the truth that we do all have the power to stop using a substance that is doing us harm.
Not everybody is "wired" to need religion. Atheists and agnostics can achieve sobriety and remain non spiritual. If your reigion helps you that is fine, but it is not necessary for everybody. Secular Organizations for Sobriety exists to help people recover and does so with zero reference to any higher power.
WIll power along with support from friends and family is actually more effective than any organized program. People who quit on our own do as well and better than AA. In one study ony 5-10% of AA members were still sober after one year. IMHO that is a result of buyong into the powerless lie.
AA needs some rigirous honesty and needs to admit that they are religious. Federal courts in the US have ruled that AA is a religion and because of AA's religious nature courts and prisons cannot force attendance at AA any more than they can force someone to go to a church.
If AA works for you I am happy for you, but they need to stop acting like they are the only game in town. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 5:03 PMp.s. here is a link to a very critical look at the 12 steps.
www.orange-papers.org/menu1.html -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 5:11 PMAnother interesting article that questions the unproven theory that addiction is a disease.
www.addictioninfo.org/article...ge1.html
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 5:20 PM>> The reality is that we humans have spirituality wired into us. <<
Wired into us in the sense that we have the propensity to the fall prey to the delusion because it served our ancestors by facilitating social cohesion and conformity, but it is not necessary. It is no more wired into us than murder or prejudice, and perhaps just as destructive. There are many human behaviors that we need to struggle to overcome. Religion and substance abuse are two of them.
The benefits or the religious crutch in dealing with addiction could be provided by many things besides imaginary friends. Although I can't speak from experience, I think social support is the only active ingredient in that placebo mix of AA. Spirituality or "higher power" is just along for the ride as a backdoor method of spreading religion. Still if you find it necessary, then I could be wrong. Well controlled clinical studies are needed, if they haven't been done yet.
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sun, June 14, 2009 - 11:00 AMRegardles of wether humans have spirituality "wired into them" organisations like AA should NOT be hinding under the spirituality banner to recieve federal funding.
AA is as "Christian as Christ Himself" and they practice VERY "Christian-esque" Morals in their "spirituality code" its a thinly veiled "Christian Organisation" not unlike all the others like it. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sun, June 14, 2009 - 5:49 PMAA is a religion and quite a Christian one at that. Most meetings end with the Lords Prayer instead of the more neutral Serenity Prayer. They just assume a Christian domination of everything.
I reccomend to anyone I have know who is dealing with an addiction issue to avoid 12 step programs at al costs. I even convinced one friend to leave AA and because he did his sobriery is more solid than ever.
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Mon, June 15, 2009 - 8:03 AMThe Cult I was in "The Children of God" adopted these 12 steps and altered them differently for their "Miracle" practices. There was even a kid's reader book made and we memorized the steps. I remember as a teenager trying multiple times in times of desperate need and of course it never worked. Long forgotten now. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Mon, June 15, 2009 - 8:19 AMI would be interested in hearing more about your time with 'The Children of God".
The 12 steps are used many other cults in addition to aa. Here is an article about the snake oil known as the 12 steps:
www.orange-papers.org/orange-...oil.html -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Mon, June 15, 2009 - 2:26 PM<I would be interested in hearing more about your time with 'The Children of God". >
I used to live right behind their main American compound. Scary people. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Mon, June 15, 2009 - 2:38 PMHere is a bit of history about the "Children of God"
"In 1973, David Berg, founder of the Children of God, predicted that Comet Kohoutek foretold a colossal doomsday event in the United States in January 1974.[3][4] Children of God members distributed Berg's messages, which warned of impending doom, across the country. The majority of U.S.-based members then fled in anticipation to existing group communes (or formed new ones) around the world. No such event actually occurred"
This is from the Wikipedia article about Comet Kohoutek.
As an aside I wonder if many people will take the year 2012 predictions this seriously. There is a related hoax related to a nonexistent planet called Nibiru.
astrobiology.nasa.gov/ask-an-...uestion/
P. T. Barnum famously said "There's a sucker born every munute" It may now be every 15 seconds. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 1:13 PMMy take on the "higher power" position that 12-step groups take is that the point is to replace compulsive behavior with an acknowledgment that some things are beyond individual control. For some, that may translate into evangelical bible thumping, and for others - something entirely different and not especially recognizable as traditional religious faith.
The claims here that addictions can be dealt with merely by will power is undoubtedly true for many types of milder forms of addiction, however for many people, the underlying dynamic must be addressed in a more profound way. This is where the "faith based" aspect of 12 step programs come into play.
Additionally, there are non-faith-based 12 step programs which are growing in popularity. These work in the same was as the more traditional type, but change the verbiage a bit to make it less objectionable to some. Indeed, there are plenty of addicts who come from abusive religious backgrounds. For these folks, a 12-step program which is specifically non faith based might be the best approach.
In any event, personal recovery from addiction can be a difficult process for many. There is no single path which is the most effective for everyone. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 1:18 PMInteresting article that points out that addiction is a behavior and not a disease.
www.addictioninfo.org/article...ge1.html -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 1:22 PM<Interesting article that points out that addiction is a behavior and not a disease. >
I am appalled. I have never read such tripe in my life. It makes Fundie Christianloids look good. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 1:28 PMI would like to see scientific evidence of the disease theory. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 1:36 PMThe AA cult actually has it's roots in fundamentalism. The Oxford Group was the "moral majority" of it's time and William Wilson had his "spiritual vision" while on powerful mind altering drugs.
From the article....
"Bill W. and Dr. Bob were the founders of AA, but Bill W. was probably the more influential of the two. Bill W. wrote AA's The Big Book and AA's infamous Twelve Steps after experiencing a spiritual awakening while undergoing a hospitalized treatment for his alcoholism. Bill W. also readily acknowledged that AA was modeled after the Oxford Group Movement.
The Oxford Group Movement was led by Dr. Frank Buchman, a very charismatic leader, as are all cult leaders. Buchman and his groupers were not in the business of converting heathens to Christianity. What they did do is to subversively and deceitfully 'steal' those Christians from their own church.
Dr. Buchman was never secretive about his possessing superior knowledge and abilities. He readily admitted, and his followers readily acknowledged, that Buchman knew what was best for society. The Oxford Group Movement subscribed to the 'any means justifies the end' philosophy.
Dr. Buchman once stated in an interview that the world would be a far better place it were led by a leader such as Adolf Hitler. Buchman was quoted: "I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler . . ."
Dr. Buchman and his Oxford Group Movement were so despised by the American public that they were forced to change their name to the Moral Rearmament and subsequently they had to go underground. This is the philosophical foundation of AA.
AA's infamous Twelve Steps has just as interesting a foundation. Bill W. was hospitalized for alcoholism. During this hospitalization, he was treated by Dr. Silkworth with Dr. Silkworth's own belladonna cure. This was a standard treatment for alcoholism at that time.
The belladonna cure consisted of a blend of morphine, belladonna, henbane and other hallucinogenic drugs. Any of these drugs individually are powerful hallucinogens, let alone the synergistic effect of such a combination.
It was while under the influence of this hallucinogenic cure that Bill W. had his white light experience.' This was his religious epiphany. Bill W. describes this experience: "I found myself crying out, "If there is a God, let Him show Himself! I am ready to do anything!" Suddenly, the room lit up with a great white light . . . All about me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself, "So, this is the God of the Preachers"
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 1:53 PM<I would like to see scientific evidence of the disease theory. >
Nobody claims that addiction is a disease except for fascist bigots like the asshole who wrote that article. Addiction is a sickness. In many cases it is a symptom of more serious problems such as schizophrenia or depression. In either cases, alcoholism causes changes to the body chemistry that makes it very difficult to function without it.
www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/alco...ses.htm
In the case of heroin addiction, changes in the endocrine system making it impossible for the addict to live without it.
www.nida.nih.gov/researchr...roin3.html
One of the problems that I kept running into while trying to kick my nicotine addiction was the judgmental attitude of those who did not recognize the medical causes of nicotine addiction and the changes in the brain chemistry that nicotine addiction causes.
www.nida.nih.gov/ResearchR...tine3.html
I was helpless in the face of my nicotine addiction until I turned to a higher power. Science. By attacking my problem as a medical condition I have been tobacco free for over six years.
Another problem problem I have with that article is that the ignoramous attacked both children with "invisible disabilities" such as autism and learning disabilities (which are related) and the ADA which protects their rights as human beings. The writer of that article is as ignorant as a sack full of hammers on all the subjects he was prattling on about. I would expect that sort of ignorance from a Christianoid.
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Thu, June 18, 2009 - 6:09 PMInteresting article that points out that addiction is a behavior and not a disease.
www.addictioninfo.org/article...ge1.html
WOW!!! That is the most incredible tripe. I would suggest that the author find a time machine and go back in time at least 60 years so he can feel more at ease with the prevailing wisdom.
Anyone who believes that compulsive or addictive behavior is volitional has no understanding of what she or he is talking about, and should simply be dismissed out of hand as being irrelevant to the topic for any useful discussion on the subject. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Thu, June 18, 2009 - 6:59 PMThe part of the article I agree with is that it causes harm to to tell people that they are powerless. I believe that a program to fight addiction should begin with encouraging self will. I believe will power is the key first step.
In speaking of going back in time part of the problem with AA is they act like nothing has changed since the Big Book was published. It's as if medical science has learned nothing about addiction and that William Wilson is the last word on addictions.
Personally I dismiss the 12 step program out of hand because they do more harm than good. One study showed that after one year only about 5 - 10% of people who joined AA were still sober. People who quit on their own have better success than those who try AA.
Again I ask where is the scientific evidence that addiction is a disease? -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Thu, June 18, 2009 - 7:15 PMA searching and fearless moral inventory of AA. www.orange-papers.org/menu1.html
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 1:26 PM<The part of the article I agree with is that it causes harm to to tell people that they are powerless. I believe that a program to fight addiction should begin with encouraging self will. I believe will power is the key first step. >
If a doctor diagnosed you with cancer and told you that the first step is to encourage self-will, you would say he was bat-shit crazy and you would be right. The key to fighting cancer is medical treatment. The key to fighting addiction is also medical treatment. The problem is that addictions are not straight forward like cancer. There are a variety of medical causes of addiction ranging from addiction from birth (You would be amazed what second hand smoke can do to a child) to brain chemistry dysfunctions such as depression and schizophrenia. To claim that addictions are a matter of will power is as scientifically ignorant as creationism and as damaging as a Phelps protest.
An addict is not entirely helpless in the face of addiction. An addict makes choices. An addict can decide to face his problems and find professional medical help to cure them or the addict can go to AA and fail. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 1:53 PMThe difference between an addiction and cancer is that we can prove that cancer is a disease. We have no such proof for addictions. The problem is not that people are being told that will power is the only solution. That would be as wrong as AA claiming that will power plays no role at all. Which is what they do. They say all is hopeless and that the only thing to do is to turn it over to a higher power. In other words faith healing.
The fisrt step of AA is to accept that we are powerless. If somebody actually believes that to be the case it can lead to slips and the person trying to justify that slip by claiming to be powerless.
Another thing AA does is that they are frozen in the 1930's. They discourage and dismiss what medical science has learned since then. They frown on the use of things like anti-depressants which in some cases can help a person get out of an addiction. While they may take no official stand the prevailing attitude among members is that discoveries about brain chemistry and their role in addictions do not count. The predominant attitude is that if it's not in the Big Book (their Bible) then it is dismissed out of hand.
IMHO the danger comes from AA telling people that will power plays no role what so ever. Self will along with social support, therapy, dietary changes, medications and their own pre existing spiritual beliefs can help someone get out of an addiction. We are far from powerless. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 2:19 PM<IMHO the danger comes from AA telling people that will power plays no role what so ever. Self will along with social support, therapy, dietary changes, medications and their own pre existing spiritual beliefs can help someone get out of an addiction. We are far from powerless.>
My argument is not with your stand on AA, which I agree with you fully. My argument is with the article that you posted, which I found to be so bigoted as to be objectionable. Not only did that swine discriminate against addicts with his prattle about will power but he discriminated against autistic people and people with learning disabilities as well as attacking the ADA. Thinking like his makes AA drivel harmless in comparison. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 7:33 PM"the first step in AA is to accept that we are powerless"
not too unlike the first steps to becoming a Christian eh?
"you are POWERLESS! the POWER OF CHRIST IS WITHIN YOU"! (as the Evangelical Preacher SLAPS you in your forehead almost knocking you off your knees!)
*need we say more*? -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sat, June 20, 2009 - 4:01 PM<<<I would like to see scientific evidence of the disease theory.>>>
It's difficult to understand the emphasis u seem to be placing on a black or white answer (yes or no) regarding the existance of a disease associated with an addiction... diseases and addictions come in many various degrees and levels, the idea that u can quantify and label something as a disease or not a disease is simply not workable in this context. Although I agree with your take on AA, I find your mixing of apples and oranges disquieting and your labouring over labeling reminds me of George Bush when he said "u are either with us or against us..." completely overlooking all the shades of gray associated with the hair-splitting process of determining whether addictions are a disease or if a particular component of an addiction does not fit a traditional medical model for what currently qualifies as a disease. :)(:
Freud often spoke about Thanatos and Eros - suggesting that there is an on-going struggle in the mind over the self-destructive "death" and self-avowing "life" forces we have developed from infancy to adulthood in terms of our personality development, this can be applied to our understanding of addictions, aside from the actual physical changes associated with addictions, there are mental and emotional changes as well. Thusly, some addictions clearly mimic disease and respond positively to a medical treatment model, whilst other addictions do not. In addition, the patient's educational level, socio-economic level, et. al., all need to be taken into account in the quest for a cure or at least a cessation of the addicitive behaviour.
In conclusion, your statement contains a fatal flaw and is basically combative in nature by it's implication that since addictions are not a disease they require no medical treatment.... and if they were to receive medical treatment, the outcome would be useless, because it was not a disease that was being treated. If only it were so simple to think, that if only we were to apply our willpower, we would have a "cure!" :)(: -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sat, June 20, 2009 - 4:44 PMActually I am in favor of what ever medical treatment might be available regardless of it being a disease or not. What I have found in my own experience with AA and AA members is that their is a deep denial about what medical science has learned about addictions since the 1930's. As I indicated before I do not see will power as the only answer. The problem is that AA totally disempowers people by claiming that self will plays no role at all. I think the powerless concept cripples people right from the start. Furthermore the AA paradigm dominates the field of addiction recovery in this country to the point where (up until recently)* courts would force the 12 steps on people.
I admit to being a bit combative and that is due to some justified anger about the situation I see some people get into because of AA. BTW I view anger as a natural and healthy response to some situations. Anger can be a constructive driving force for change. I currently have somebody close to me who does AA, has had numerous slips, and keeps falling back on the powerless excuse. He recently began to look into Secular Organizations for Sobriety and the SMART program. Both of those are non religious and both encourage self will as an important part of dealing with an addiction. SMART especially promotes the idea that drug use is a behavior that we all have the ability to control.
*forced AA is coming to an end due to a federal court decision that declared AA to be a religion and that forcing somebody to AA violates one's Constitutional rights.
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sat, June 20, 2009 - 4:54 PMThis one of several court decisions that say that AA is a religion and that therefore courts can no longer order people to go to 12 step meetings.
www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi
All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion or engages in religious activities:
the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
The Federal Appeals Court in Hawaii, September 7, 2007, in the Inouye v. Kemna case.
The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to those rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By letting them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sat, June 20, 2009 - 5:59 PM
I can sincerely understand your anger and deep frustration.... I felt similar anger and rage when I lost my BF due to our completely useless and dysfunctional mental health system. He suffered from what many addicts are dealing with - a DUAL DIAGNOSIS. He had to deal with a rapidly deteriorating type of schizophrenia and he often compensated for this with binge drinking, the police had to be frequently called to the scene, because when he got drunk enough, he became dangerous and psychotically violent.....this DUAL DIAGNOSIS and the lack of any kind of available, competent, multi-disciplinary medical care resulted in his very early death. The combination of alcohol/street drugs and potent psychiatric medications are often deadly. It was beyond frustrating to hear over-worked, incompetent mental health workers state their typical, useless platitudes --> "...he has to hit bottom before he can get better....."
I think that it's fair to say that treatment has little to do with WILL POWER and everything to do with a comprehensive, multi-disciplinary, long-term treatment plan. Something extremely difficult to find and cost prohibitive to those most in need of treatment. Personally, I think that a jail cell for the severely mentally ill is a criminal action - but, sadly, that is what most people in this situation face - jail and an early death. Pretty damn grim I would say.
It's impossibly difficult to get help for people suffering with such catastrophic mental illness and when an alcohol or drug addiction turns the condition into a DUAL DIAGNOSIS, the prognosis is extremely bleak. Hopefully, your friend does not have a DUAL DIAGNOSIS. If at all possible, ask your doctor or your friend's doctor for a referral to a local treatment facility. Presently, residential care and treatment seem to be the most helpful course of action - but as in most of these situations, your friend has to be sincere in their quest for help. If they are not sincere, they will most likely reject the tools for recovery and prolong the healing process. I wish u the best as u help your friend through this process. :)(:
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sat, June 20, 2009 - 6:52 PMI appreciate your suggestions. He does seem to have a clinical depression. He does know full well that alcohol is a depressant, but as you might guess his addiction keeps him drinking. The longest he went without a drink was six months and during that time his depression did seem to lift a bit. I know he spoke to his doctor about an SSRI for depression, but acccording to him the doctor thinks he should stop drinking before he starts a medication. He may indeed have a DUAL DIAGNOSIS. My observation as a layman is that booze is the primary cause of his depression.
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Mon, June 22, 2009 - 7:51 PM"Here is a bit of history about the "Children of God"
"In 1973, David Berg, founder of the Children of God, predicted that Comet Kohoutek foretold a colossal doomsday event in the United States in January 1974.[3][4] Children of God members distributed Berg's messages, which warned of impending doom, across the country. The majority of U.S.-based members then fled in anticipation to existing group communes (or formed new ones) around the world. No such event actually occurred"
This is from the Wikipedia article about Comet Kohoutek."
Well, actually, I was born in January of 1974.
Perhaps that is the colossal doomsday event he foretold? -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, July 1, 2009 - 12:03 PMAddiction is well recognized as a medical condition. It is a compulsive need for a substance, and activity or to engage in a behavior. There is plenty of science regarding its being a disease.
It is a mental illness. As with many mental illnesses, there are also often psysiological correlates. Dismissing addiction as simply being a matter of insufficient willpower, is a quaint notion which has been discredited in scientific and medical circles for decades. I'm a bit surprised to find that sort of thinking here.
If anyone here is serious about tracking it down, just start at Wikipedia and proceed through the DSM IV or DSM V stuff. There is plenty of sound medical literature and scientific literature on additions, compulsive personalities, addictive personalities, etc.
Challenging members of the group to prove that addiction is pathological is a bit like challenging the group to prove that the planet is more sperical than flat. I would recommend catching up with the past 40+ years of medical thinking on the topic.
12 step groups are not for everyone. There is more than one way to deal with addiction.
Anyone who gets emotional or positional about a path that someone else has found to be helpful with a personal problem or psychological illness might want to take a closer look at where his or her prejudice is coming from. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, July 1, 2009 - 12:14 PMSorry about my sticking keys on my keyboard. I hope that the preceding made sense.
One more thing that I would like to point out about the quaint notion of willpower and serious addictive tendencies. I large part of the problem that we had with the last president was that he was an addict who never got into recovery. All he did was stop drinking, and take up fundamentalist religion, which can be another form of addiction.
There were a number of good psychological profiles of President Bush in light of his addictive personality. For example, the childhood abandonment by his parents, which is often a characteristic of addict's childhoods, was expressed in his pathological insistence on loyalty by his close advisers. It was more important that they stand by him, than it was that they be competent. This is just one of the examples of his "addict behavior" which was apparent to me.
This is precisely why old fashioned and naive notions of addiction and will power should be discarded for more current thinking. As more is learned about addiction, the better we can deal with it as a problem. An addict who stops one form of addictive behavior, but who fails to deal psychologically with the underlying reasons for the behavior, is often better off, but often worse off because they replace one addiction with another. Once they have understood the dynamics underlying the addictive behavior, then it becomes easier to act in a more healthy manner. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, July 1, 2009 - 1:23 PMLeaving Bush aside for a moment I have known many people who quit drinking and went on with their lives. The term "dry drunk" is an oxymoron. Once you stop drinking other problems can be solve with a clear head, a therapist, clergy and the support of family and friends. AA complicates the matter by insisting that a series of other steps are necessary. IMHO sobriety is defined as no longer drinking. It is a really a one step process. Abstinence equals sobriety.
As to why people drink it is not complicated. People drink because the booze produces physcial pleasure. AA seems to be in denial about that.
As for taking up religion. AA is a religion an courts have ruled that because AA is a religion that people can no longer be ordered to attend AA any mor than they can be ordered to go to a church.
Somebody who has quit drinkng for five years and never gone to a meeting is every bit as sober as a person who has attended a meeting a day for five years.
We need to get pas the quain notion that we are powerless and that the only solutuon it to abandon one's self to God. AA is a religion that promptes faith healing. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, July 1, 2009 - 1:49 PMDemystifying why people drink; www.orange-papers.org/orange-...joy.html
Once you make the decision to never drink again the other problems in your life can be approached with a clear head. That we all have a natural and healthy desire to have pleasure is not in and of itself an underlying problem. The problem is that the pursuit of this particular pleasure has become a problem. Once you have stopped drinking you can make the decision to remain abstinent for the rest of your life. It does not need to be a tentative arrangement of "one day at a time" We all have the ability to make it a life long decision and to move on.
It is not necessary to refer to your self a a "recovering alcoholic" for the rest of you life. I just tell people I no longer drink and call myself a teatotaller. Viewing it that way makes it eaiser to move on with your life and not dwell in the past. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, July 1, 2009 - 2:36 PMOne alternative to the THEORY that addiction is a disease:
rational.org/index.php
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, July 1, 2009 - 4:00 PM<Once you make the decision to never drink again the other problems in your life can be approached with a clear head. That we all have a natural and healthy desire to have pleasure is not in and of itself an underlying problem. The problem is that the pursuit of this particular pleasure has become a problem. Once you have stopped drinking you can make the decision to remain abstinent for the rest of your life. It does not need to be a tentative arrangement of "one day at a time" We all have the ability to make it a life long decision and to move on. >
The only reason that I quit drinking is that I got tired of it. Not everybody who drinks is an alcoholic, nor am I a 'dry drunk'. I still have my cup of hot saki on a cold day, or the occasional six pack of Fat Tire finds its way to my fridge. Another thing that we need to get rid of is the self-righteous attitude of the non-addict. It does as much harm as AA.
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, July 1, 2009 - 3:54 PM<We need to get pas the quain notion that we are powerless and that the only solutuon it to abandon one's self to God. AA is a religion that promptes faith healing.>
Hey, Hummingbird. Mudgeley was pretty clear. The two of you are saying pretty much the same thing only in different ways. I really doubt that anybody here will give AA any credence. We all agree that it is a cult.
The difference is that we are not being as judgmental towards the addict. Judgmental people used to piss me off so badly that I kept on smoking because it is a "right". Addiction is a medical problem that the addict may choose to get help for. As far as AA is concerned, it is the shits. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sun, July 5, 2009 - 11:21 AMI wholeheartedly agree that ceasing an addictive behavior, whatever its form - alcohol, compulsive sex, gambling, spending... the list is a long one, but what they all have in common is as a way to avoid one's self... is the first step to dealing with addiction.
I would much rather be with an addict who is not abusing than one who is abusing. Given that, I would much rather be with an addict who has stopped using, and who has worked on the underlying dynamics that lead to addiction.
This is easier for some folks than it is for others. The roots of addiction can run very deep.
I also believe that people are capable of different sorts of growth at different points in their lives. There are a number of ways to try to get to the roots of addiction. Anyone who decides to do this is usually trying to bread long standing family patterns which have been passed down for generations.
As for AA, I have been to a couple of AA meeting to see what they are about. I was not very comfortable, there. It was not something that I thought would work for me if I were an alcoholic. However, I might change my mind, if I were one and everything else had failed. A lot of time has been spent bashing AA here. However, I would like to observe that recovery from addiction is a gradual process which only starts with sobriety. Somewhere drifting up from the cobwebs of my memories is reading a study, at least ten years ago, on recidivism and AA attendance for alcoholics. According to the study, there was a large percentage who attended meetings for a short time in order to achieve some initial sobriety and insights, and then moved on to other means to deal with their addiction.
There was a fairly large percentage who had gotten healthy enough that they were able to drink, and it was no longer addictive behavior for them.
For the record, I have nothing against the recreational use of alcohol, or most other things that also can become addictive habits. I like wine with good food, but I don't drink very often because it just doesn't add much to the quality of my life compared to how it dulls my perceptions when I drink. I also find that just one or two drinks, and I am a bit foggy the next day, which I don't care for. I imagine if I drank more, then my tolerance would be higher.
While I understand how damaging evangelical and other fundie religions can be, I guess I am more inclined to give AA a break because I see it as a stepping stone for suffering people to get on a track toward sobriety. I don't know this, but I suspect that AA meetings can be addictive as well, just as evangelical christianity and mohammedism can be.
As I've mentioned before though, my take on the 12-step "higher power" notion, is that addicts have made their addictions their "higher power", and that they need to replace that thinking with something else. It need not be a god, or any other traditional religious notion. My understanding is that it is simply a way to get the addict to try to stop controlling that which is beyond his/her control which is triggering the addictive behavior. The fact that many addicts approach the idea of a "higher power" with addictive zeal is more of a statement about the addict than the program. If I am right about this, then one would expect the addict to be less "god oriented" as recovery progressed, and personal insight and enhanced self esteem replaced the need for and outside entity. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Sun, July 5, 2009 - 12:34 PMI think the bottom line for me is that up until recent times AA was presented as being the only way to deal with addictions. It got to the point where people could be ordered to AA as if it alone had the answers. The truth is that AA is only one of many ways to deal with addiction. There are numerous other ways like Rational Recovery, SMART, SOS and many others including the thousands who just quit on their own.
If the 12 steps work for someone that is fine, but for me being told from the get go that I was powerless just did not resonate with who I am. The reason I use SMART is that they are not dogmatic. They rely on science and accept that we have learned a thing or two about addiction since the 1930's. They also start off by telling people that we do have the power to stop. If one has a spirituality that they find helpful then that can be incorporated in their recovery. If one is agnostic or atheist there is no push to change that because they accept that atheists can recover just as well as believers.
I think that two developments are leading to the end of AA as the paradigm. One is that the era of court mandated AA is behind us. The other is that all of the various alternatives are becoming more well known because of the internet. I am optimistic that within a decade AA will take it's place as just one of many methods available to people. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Fri, July 17, 2009 - 8:40 AMMuch has been learned about addiction, especially in the past 20 years as the behavioral and medical science have improved.
My father was an alcoholic who died of internal bleeding from a perforated esophagus by the age of 42. Although I was only a child, I still remember clearly the aura that surrounded AA as being his only hope for recovery. A lot of what I was told then would be considered cornswaggle today. AA was just the best thing available, at the time, in terms of success rates. People were also a lot more religious, so the faith based component probably was just taken for granted by most folks as being normal.
Because of the family history, and the well known increase in risk for the children of alcoholics, I have been vigilant in moderating my own drinking. It was a real fear in my 20's and early 30's that I might have that potential.
It turned out that I had other addictive tendencies, mostly to high risk adrenaline producing behavior and relationship addiction. I have come to terms with it using a variety of resources. Probably the most helpful was a psychotherapist who was an expert on addiction. However, many people don't have the financial resources or sufficient insurance coverage to pay for that sort of help.
I agree with Hummingbird that 12-step programs are just one resource which are probably becoming less relevant as we learn more about addiction, and develop better tools to deal with it. I suppose they will always make sense to some people, and I would not discourage anyone from using a 12-step program if the alternative is addiction.
I heard an interesting episode of "this american life" a couple weeks ago. Two babies were sent home with the wrong mom's from the maternity ward after birth. One of them came from an evangelical minister's family, the other from a non-religious family. Even though raised in a non-religious family who made fun of the fundies, the girl who was born to the evangelical mother became a fundie as an adult. The girl who was raised in the evangelical family, but who was born to the non-religious family, did not become a fundie, in spite of her upbringing. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 10:11 PMI used to drink way too much caused me to nearly murder someone, and do time. I ended up in AA, in bad shape. Got with the program. It eventually worked.
The higher power thing? I just beleived there was something out there strong enough to help me. I thought it might be God, or a part of my brain as yet unused. Powerless? at the time, yes. But they said I could never drink again. I stayed sober 5 years, and then drank again. At first I freaked. then I realized, after the world didn't end, that I COULD drink. I'm drinking right now. I've had a beer, and I might have 1 or 2 more before I crash. According to them, I have no control and I won't be able to stop. Truth is, i've only been drunk 3 times in a year and a half, and rarely drink too much. I'm FAR from what they said would happen if I picked it up again. I've got a bottle of tequila handy that I won't drink tonight. That shouldn't be possible, and yet it is. But there's no way i would walk into an AA meeting sand tell someone it's OK for them to drink, just take it easy. No way I would do that to someone.
I think, I know, that AA works. I've seen hundred of lives saved that simply were on their last legs, doomed. But how? Did God do it? I don't think so. I think now that the power of the group, with peer support, and a liberal dose of brainwashing got these dead men walking sober when nothing else could. Even if the whole premise of a higher power is sheer bullshit, it's worth it in this instance bc it really did, without question, saved doomed men. So in this case, I must regretably side with this quasi- religious orginization.
I like drinking. But it wasn't so fun when I had lost control. I'm glad I can have few cold ones, or a couple glasses of wine at dinner. You can't really enjoy a nice meal to the fullest without a decent wine pairing anyway. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 7:23 AMYep I drank two beers by the fire last night. Acoording to them, I shouldn't, and won't, be able to do that for long. They were wrong. I AM careful around the hard shit though, don't really mess with it too much.
I alwas argued with them about wether it's a disease. I say no, it is not. It's a condition of the mind and body. They would say of the soul as well. If it were a disease, this would not work. Faith healing does not work. But thier system does.
I can't talk shit on AA. I've seen too much good come out of it. -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 7:46 AMwww.smartrecovery.org/resourc...programs
There is by no means a consensus about the theory that it is a disease. The following is from the above link to SMART recovery.
Also here is a link tot The Orange Papers which takes a searching and fearless moral inventory of AA. www.orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Q. How is SMART Recovery® different from traditional Twelve Step programs?
A. SMART Recovery® has a scientific foundation, not a spiritual one. SMART Recovery® teaches increasing self-reliance, rather than powerlessness. SMART Recovery® views addictive behavior as a maladaptive habit, rather than as a disease. SMART Recovery® meetings are discussion meetings in which individuals talk with one another, rather than to one another. SMART Recovery® encourages attendance for months to years, but probably not a lifetime. There are no sponsors in SMART Recovery®. SMART Recovery® discourages use of labels such as "alcoholic" or "addict". -
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Re: The 12 Steps = Faith Healing
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 8:07 AM
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