Advertisement
expound on your thoughts on Anarchy...
outline it for me...own words please.
I would like to discuss...
outline it for me...own words please.
I would like to discuss...
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Tue, December 16, 2008 - 6:41 AMrandy is not quite that great, yet
at the wording
by on an older anarchy post, this gal ciero sp?
puts it so/w 2 planes...
who cares if i was confused, but she did lay it out
i have no idea where that thread is right now -
-
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Tue, December 16, 2008 - 9:48 AMSee I chose Randy...
I like his thought direction...
I simply choose this forum so to make sure he felt comfortable...
well if you find it we'll talk about it.
I see they hated my Roger thread so much they just kept typing shit in it until they couldnt help themselves and deleted it. And roger you said I couldn't get ppl to pay attention...and I only made two post of less then 50 words...45 post i think? -
-
Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Tue, December 16, 2008 - 12:08 PMWell, here is the thread that gives the basics on Anarchism:
2012.tribe.net/thread/20f...ed58ca100ad -
-
Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Tue, December 16, 2008 - 12:09 PMand here is a very good comment from another friend that clears up alot of the mis-conceptions:
"Infoshop has the best FAQ work on the subject possible, but it's draw back is that you can't get a good ideal of anarchism from it quickly. Infoshop FAQ is geared for the new anarchist that wants to sit down and really study in length, where as the Question Everything page and the anarchist leaflet is for those that have no introduction to anarchism at all. The Question Everything page is serves a good purpose other than an introduction too - it clarifies the most basic questions that people need answered before they can relax enough to study the Infoshop FAQ. Who can concentrate on hundreds of pages about hard core political change and human rights if they are still thinking this is JUST about "not wanting to follow the rules and co-operate within a society" as portrayed by the current system (and the social anarchist's)?
Also whenever speaking about anarchism you ALWAYS run up against one basic confusion, the massive difference between politcal anarchism and social anarchism (which is roughly nihilism). Nothing has caused more confusion about political anarchism (libertarian-socialism) than social anarchism. They are both lumped under one heading, but are radically different. Probably the easiest way to understand social anarchism is to picture the Sex Pistols and that attitude of *uck everyone - others DON'T matter etc. On the other hand you have The Clash that were political (at least Joe Strummer)..... But I digress. Political anarchism is not about a loss of order and chaos etc - it is more complicated than all those generalities. It seeks to break down external conventions of power that prevent the individual from self representation WITHIN society. It also very much focus's on co-operation and direct democracy within society in order to see that everyone is helped, listened to and respected. None of this s*it like with our present day external mobsters and corporate investors running the show without the people. The people have the "power" with political anarchism - no pyramid structures of oppression are protected. It's also important to mention that a lack of oppression structures is not the same as giving violence towards children and others free reign. Within a co-operative society personal rights do NOT extend to violation of another. So the term oppression is something that needs careful understanding in order to understand anarchism.. Social anarchist's define oppression as anything that prevents them from acting like ass's. Political anarchist's are careful to define oppression and likewise can easily spot when authentic oppression is occurring..
Anyway, that does not provide any condensed information about the differences between the two camps, I just wanted to say that the two camps are distinctly different. However I will add this - Obviously social anarchism can not be applied in a society in any real way without it setting up extreme violent and failed structures. This is NOT what the political anarchist's want at all, and they certainly don't believe in chaos. The ONLY thing that might be remotely attributed to the political's "wanting chaos" is that they ARE more than willing to fight a CLASS WAR in order to bring down the structures of oppression. But their views on society are all about community, mutual aid and co-operation, direct and consensus democracy (much like the religious Quakers even). Along a different note, "hippie passivity" is also all good and well except they that also stand by and allow madmen to rule the world. 30,000 children die every day because people have not learned to stand up and protect them! In the meantime there is a war already in progress. " -
-
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Tue, December 16, 2008 - 6:28 PMSocial anarchist's define oppression as anything that prevents them from acting like ass's. Political anarchist's are careful to define oppression and likewise can easily spot when authentic oppression is occurring..
this is my key...this one phrase is perfect.
Political Anarchist vs. Social Anarchist = Class/Majority Rule vs. Self-Governence
You my friend are a social anarchist yet to be realized.
I take anarchy to mean...rules without concensus.
We could be wordy and consult the dictionary...three words is fine by me, do be free to exercise your own volition. < anything less would be coersively political (governence - get it) >
So when you invision (see in your minds eye) your anarchy is it a social state of being or an event? The former being a goal, the later being a transitionary state...
If you were to ask; myself, I invision it as an end goal...the accomplishment and what it brings. (and then I might work backwards and ask what social paradigms changed to get here)...but im getting ahead of my thoughts.
How do you invision it state or event?
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Tue, December 16, 2008 - 6:38 PM"You my friend are a social anarchist yet to be realized. '
i really don't see anything wrong with governing ones own self, nor do i see anything wrong with having group agreement, that is consentual and not forced cooperation. so what i see is a bit of both, political and social Anarchism. but to govern oneself there must be a code that an individual by thier own life efforts abide by, a virtuous code of honor, loyalty, freedom, justice, and truth. and once there aren't just few people who have a virtous code, but many, then it can proceed to having the political Anarchy introduced that has nothing to do with class or majority, nothing to do with "demonocracy" as you see it today. .
-
Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Tue, December 16, 2008 - 6:42 PM"How do you invision it state or event? "
ofcourse there must be an event, the goals which are that the roots problems must be eliminated before even trying to transition anything into the advanced state that is seen or envisioned. -
-
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 9:35 AMHow do you invision the anarch in your mind when your thinking it over? focus on event or goal? -
-
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 9:48 AMto govern oneself there must be a code that an individual by thier own life efforts abide by, a virtuous code of honor, loyalty, freedom, justice, and truth.
loyalty and justice demand force co-op.
why is loyalty and justice hallmarks of Anarchy. Ancharist would be loyal to whom or what governence? What man could judge the injustice of an Anarchist...even another Anarchist? is not the dealing out of justice the vary authority the Anarchist resisst?
If i may, and im not TELLING u what is...
Does Honor demand Loyalty, and if so to whom?
Does Loyalty demand Honor? -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 10:13 AMagreement?
An anarchist governs himself by a code that, by his own life actions he honors.
agreement?
do edit...where you see fit...look for common ground...
i have to omitt loyalty and justice...as they lend to the goal of a group...and not the anarchist, per se
loyalty can displace honor...
justice is what the group seeks when the anarchist is anarching....
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 10:18 AMagain, we are speaking of peoples who are not like the ones you see in this world today.
-
Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 10:26 AM" i have to omitt loyalty and justice...as they lend to the goal of a group...and not the anarchist, per se
loyalty can displace honor...
justice is what the group seeks when the anarchist is anarching.... "
here is part of a conversation that i was having with bedouin in 2012 tribe, in which i say:
"....how about a third option, how about keeping ones own mind and individualism and becoming completely self-reliant. you may need others to survive, but that doesnt mean all of us need collectivism. you seem to favor collectivism for than individualism, how about balancing both of those, putting minds together to form a great solution(collectivism) with thier own unique minds, and striving to be self-reliant and not completely dependant on others for survival(individualism)."
An Anarchist Society would mean that there is more than one or 2 people, so a certain amount of collectivism is necessary. there must be a balance between collectivism and individualism if a certain amount of people would are to live in a symbiotic relationship of living.
-
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 10:16 AM"loyalty and justice demand force co-op. "
not so.
"Ancharist would be loyal to whom or what governence? "
to themselves, and thier bretheren, to all who are of honor and of the viruous code set by themselves, and to all that which is living essence, not by force but by thier own will alone, in a virtuous person this would only be natural. integrity and virtue do not force anything, they just are. therefore loyalty is part of integrity, and so is honor.
"What man could judge the injustice of an Anarchist."
they will judge themselves, but by thier own code, the conscience will not be permitted to let the injustice go unheard or un-challenged. again, you must stop looking at these modern humans, and stop comparing them to the others. beleive it or not, not all of us are like the primitive ones who delve into petty inferences. the true Anarchist would be responsible for thier own actions, and to be responsible is to take the consequences of the actions taken, but they shall be let to tell thier own side of the story, all sides would be gathered. in a sense, all of the virtous true Anarchists would be the court. and as for justice, it is not what you see in this modern state of afairs now in this human world, much of this that you see in this world is a great farce, therfore if the systems are corrupt so will thier "justice" systems be corrupt. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 10:32 AMand you may go as far as to ask what "corrupt" is, and i will say:
anything that is an opposition to living essence, is by the word, corrupt.
-
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 10:35 AM"How do you invision the anarch in your mind when your thinking it over? focus on event or goal? "
how do i envision it happening? i do not know, it is in an abstract form within my mind, all i can say is more needs to happen, and i need to know myself completely before right thinking which lead to right action ever comes to "be". -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 11:19 AMgee, will i ever be able to get in a word?
sideways... -
-
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 11:53 AM"....how about a third option, how about keeping ones own mind and individualism and becoming completely self-reliant. you may need others to survive, but that doesnt mean all of us need collectivism. you seem to favor collectivism for than individualism, how about balancing both of those, putting minds together to form a great solution(collectivism) with thier own unique minds, and striving to be self-reliant and not completely dependant on others for survival(individualism)."
individualism and self-reliance...exactly
so how is one self-reliant if you need others to survive...(want and need to different things)...
why must we seek out others? to have a group is to assign leadership base of some such merit...a
if you lend yourself to a group, you give up yourself while you are a part of that group...you will deny your code to be loyal to the group...
From your writtings remind me of this guy who wrote this book about coming needed change of 2012...talked about all the taboo things he did along his life...and how society would be much better if they changed their calendars...(i thought great idea<although not his>)...but then this person also decided he should sit at the round table of change and call the shots...in the end I concluded that all this person really wanted was to change reality to fit his desire for the taboo...he wanted to lead others.
By this I am concluding that you just want a better democracy...justice , loyalty and honor...red , white and blue
as apposed to self-reliance, independance, and freedom...
there is no freedom in groups only exemptions.
there is no self-reliance in groups (other then towards the group goal...like a 9 to 5 is not self-reliance...
-
-
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 11:59 AMi need to know myself completely before right thinking which lead to right action ever comes to "be".
lol...why i started this...conversation...
basically I thought you had a great thought trend...but i also 'thought' that some of your thoughts conflicted...
as we are discussing...
so we talk and maybe things will clarify themselves -
-
Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 12:26 PMi am, as i said, providing an alternative for those who want to rely on society abit longer, just like a couple who rely on eachother, a symbioses. for those who wish to rely on society, this type of society would be a sort of "guide" to true freedom, it would allow them to come to this state of true freedom naturally, and without anybody pushing them. it would be a progressive advancemnt to this state of true freedom, that the society itself would advance along with the people, until eventually they come to the state of true indedendance, they come to obtain thier true power from within. look at it as a sort of graduation. -
-
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Thu, December 18, 2008 - 1:42 AMwell...
at least this is worth
reading
and just a tad bit
more
-
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, December 17, 2008 - 12:08 PM"individualism and self-reliance...exactly
so how is one self-reliant if you need others to survive...(want and need to different things)...
why must we seek out others? to have a group is to assign leadership base of some such merit...a"
i never siad need, an individual if they so chose to, if they wanted could go join a society like this, but that doesnt mean they have a "need" to do so. a group or society doesnt necesarily mean having a leader, for all of them would be leaders,it is called symbioses, much like how humans live with nature, but now in this modern era the symbioses has become unbalanced, balance doesnt mean thier is a restricition to advancing.
"rom your writtings remind me of this guy who wrote this book about coming needed change of 2012...talked about all the taboo things he did along his life...and how society would be much better if they changed their calendars...(i thought great idea<although not his>)...but then this person also decided he should sit at the round table of change and call the shots...in the end I concluded that all this person really wanted was to change reality to fit his desire for the taboo...he wanted to lead others. "
(sigh)....it is quite frustrating when people start comparing me to others as if they know me. i really dont care to lead anyone, i wouldn't be calling the shots, every individual would be, this is part of symbioses.i am simply offering an alternative to people who do wish to live in a society. does it mean that i want to be a part of said society? not at all. i would rather personally do things on my own, and with my own power.
a balance of collectivism and individualism in this type of society doesnt mean that the individual would be set in a group/hive mind mentality. and again, what i am trying to explain is far from what you could ever compare with in this "modern" state that you see the world in now.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Tue, December 16, 2008 - 12:20 PMhere is another excerpt from myself from many of the discussions and bashings of this subject:
"i choose to speak of anarchism, becuase it is the closest to the utopia, the paradise , this ideal within my minds, my soul's eyes, it is the closest of words to it, becuase this that i envision has no word to describe it, nor does it need one...this ideal of an anarchy based society is the closest and outlines the basics of what i see, those links were only to inform those without the knowledge what the basics are, and then advance and evolve from their, a revolution in anarchy, for things were never meant to stay exactly the same, eventually this way of anarchy will advance, just as what religion was introduced for in the first place, was meant for steping stones to the next ladder rung, it wasnt meant to become stagnant and decayed....."
i am addresing someone else whe i say this:
"your view of anarchy is that of the stagnant and decayed anarchy, it is not the ideal i see....."
2012.tribe.net/thread/402...dec25d48a85
and another comment of mine form the same link:
Someone else:
>>do you sense the possibilities of danger in Anarchy, Randy, or do you have full faith that it is exactly what the world needs to finally lift the cloud of illusion and break the chains of false dogma.. whereupon we all awake bright eyed and bushy tailed to a new day!! <<<
Me:
no cali, i never once said it was that easy, i am not like those golden age "new agers" duped into beleiveing that everything will just happen and a golden age will just pop out of the sky without anything done, without total psychological revolution. no, first these shadow or secret groups must be eliminated and the mind wars on the people won, and no i am not talking about bilderberg or any other known group that has a name, these guys are just the ones closest to the bottom of the pyramid, however the ones without names are the ones most likely close to or are at the top of this pyramid. the pyramid of control and domination must be destroyed before we can even begin to move towards an Anarchy based society....
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Thu, December 18, 2008 - 3:03 PMso was this helpful, did this help clarify anything for you, Artorious? -
-
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Wed, January 14, 2009 - 9:08 AM -
-
Unsu...
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Thu, January 22, 2009 - 4:53 PMNice video by the way, i like what he says. -
-
Re: Randy - Anarchy / Chaos
Thu, January 22, 2009 - 7:57 PMi thought the link/vid excellent!
-
-
-
-