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Pluto IN the 4th

topic posted Wed, February 20, 2008 - 5:14 AM by  Unsubscribed
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So there's this recent thread about Pluto transiting the 4th, but what if Pluto is sitting there in your birth chart?
I've got Pluto in the 4th in Libra, making aspects with my Cancer rising and Mars (conjunct Moon) in Gemini in the 12th.
But i'm still not sure what to make of it.
You?

This is one explanation i found:

With Pluto in the Fourth House opportunities for transforming or regenerating yourself may come through experiences associated with the home and family environment. A danger of this placing is a tendency to dominate and coerce - this could alienate others against you and create a power struggle with family members. There may be some mystery or secret relating to home activities and this is strictly confined to the family circle. On a higher level there could be a desire for self-mastery at a deep, psychological level and this could lead you into the realms of metaphysics and the occult. The potential here is the capacity to grow into a wholesome and powerful personality possessing profound inner knowledge and deep emotional strength.

But what do all of you with this placement make of it?
What are your experiences, thoughts, insights?

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    Re: Pluto IN the 4th

    Wed, February 20, 2008 - 6:51 AM
    Embrace your planetary nature. Pluto has also got the reputation of being the ruler of messy situations. Heck when you go out into a field see a girl and steal her away from her mother and family and then concoct some plan for her to spend half the year w/you and half w/her family it sounds a bit messy. Indeed.

    As owning and living this transit I am happy to speak as to the messiness that putting documents in a storage place and losing them and not knowing who or what owns what seems correct. Seen this mess w/Junk bonds too. This is a field I understand and grew up. Pluto can confer rewards and riches and Pluto is not all that horrible a task master nothing like Saturn. But when there is messes someone has to talk about it so it can get cleaned up. My personal family is interesting but probably no more interesting than anyone else reading this right now. Heck who does not have messiness in their family. And if you family is all orderly and perfect well I just think that sounds fake and scary.

    It's a process.
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      Re: Pluto IN the 4th

      Wed, February 20, 2008 - 6:57 AM
      But please Natesa 0 you are right as one of my Aries close friends used love to walk around his enviornment and say "CONTROL" (too funny) I agree w/you 100%.

      ebm.cheetahmail.com/c/tag/tB.../doc.html

      Control
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        Re: Pluto IN the 4th

        Thu, February 21, 2008 - 6:44 AM
        uhmm, help me out here, you agree with me on what?
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          Re: Pluto IN the 4th

          Thu, February 21, 2008 - 6:56 AM
          natesa,

          not sure how much help... i have pluto in 12th house not 4th, but here is something i found on pluto in the 4th house

          Pluto

          With Pluto in the 4th House, the soul, over many lifetimes, is learning emotional awareness and self-sufficiency by means of a process which involves reducing dependence upon outer forms of security, particularly that provided by the mother and the home.

          People with Pluto in the 4th House usually confront situations which make them grow up early and yet the nature of the circumstances designed to develop independence in a person, varies considerably, depending upon which other planets are in H4 with Pluto.

          If Venus or Jupiter is with Pluto, then the parents are likely to be loving to the child but committed to making him independent early in life. Mars or Uranus in H4 with Pluto nearly always indicate some trauma with parents which involves drink, drugs or violence, as do the circumstances produced by Pluto alone. When Saturn is with Pluto in H4 the parents’ emotional inhibitions prevent them from doing anything more than look after the child’s physical needs. The combination of Jupiter, Uranus and Pluto tends to produce exces­sively liberal parents who thrust freedom upon the child.

          How a person deals with the challenges brought by Pluto in H4 will depend very much upon the level of development. The childhood circumstances may take a person the rest of his life to come to terms with, or they may equip him with a sound understanding that he and he alone is responsible for his own happiness and emotional well-being.

          With Pluto in the 4th House, a person’s life tends to be made up of a number of distinct phases or watersheds, and it is not uncommon for the Plutonian to quit a property and even a country in order to bring a phase of his life to a close.

          peace & luv,
          natty
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            Re: Pluto IN the 4th

            Thu, February 21, 2008 - 3:24 PM
            Thanks Natalie, that's very sweet! I found this piece on the internet already though.

            "People with Pluto in the 4th house usually confont situations which make them grow up early..."

            ...is very true for me. I'm having a real hard time finding back the pieces of me that i lost during childhood.
            And i was just wondering what other people make of this placement.
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              Re: Pluto IN the 4th

              Thu, February 21, 2008 - 3:31 PM
              oops...sorry...


              i was wondering, is pluto conjunct IC? -- if so what 's the orb?
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                Re: Pluto IN the 4th

                Thu, February 21, 2008 - 4:26 PM

                O, don't apologize! I really appreciate the effort. ;o)
                It was one of the better descriptions i read anyway.

                Now i'm doing it myself (lol): I'm sorry, but i'm new to this more advanced astrology-stuff and i know nothing about orbs.

                I do know Pluto is not conjunct the IC (that's in Virgo the third house).
                It's sitting there in the 4th all by itself. My Sun is in the 8th in Aquarius though, and Uranus (conjunct the NN) is in Scorpio....
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                  Re: Pluto IN the 4th

                  Thu, February 21, 2008 - 4:39 PM
                  orbs are just how many degrees planets are away from each other with regard to the aspect they are forming...example is if you had sun at 2 degrees scorpio and neptune at 4 degrees scorpio... the sun neptune conjunction would have a 2 degree orb...
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Pluto IN the 4th

                    Fri, February 22, 2008 - 4:30 AM
                    Aah, another mystery solved!
          • Re: Pluto IN the 4th

            Sun, February 24, 2008 - 2:01 AM
            Moon in the 4th house squaring Uranus in one chart I have seen translated to the child being abruptly abandoned by her mother.
    • Re: Pluto IN the 4th

      Wed, February 20, 2008 - 6:46 PM
      "Heck when you go out into a field see a girl and steal her away from her mother and family and then concoct some plan for her to spend half the year w/you and half w/her family it sounds a bit messy. Indeed."

      This is so true for my boyfriend whose Pluto is moving into his 4th house where he has moon, Saturn, Mars in Capricorn. Jupiter on the 3rd/4th house cusp, and Venus on the 4th/ 5th house cusp.

      He's going to hoist me upon his shoulders like a sacrifical lamb lol.
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    Re: Pluto IN the 4th

    Thu, February 21, 2008 - 4:22 PM
    natesa,

    In ur case, Pluto is actually the ruler of the 4th house, which would, I think, emphasize even more the secretiveness of the family affairs.

    maybe some secrets were so deep they were even hidden from u, as well.
    It would also mean you draw power from your family background-mostly psychological and emotional, but possibly also through the relations or status or ur family members.
    It also means u are a very thrifty character-u hate waste, and strive to make the best of every given resource.
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      Re: Pluto IN the 4th

      Thu, February 21, 2008 - 4:53 PM

      Thanks!

      By Pluto being the ruler of my 4th do you mean it's sitting there on its own (and therefore in charge)?

      The part about being thrifty really amuses me. It's true. For instance, 85% of my wardrobe consists of 2nd (4th,6th) hand clothes. But i DO know how to to assecerise! ;o)

      The secret and power-stuff i've got to ponder on a little longer.
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        Re: Pluto IN the 4th

        Thu, February 21, 2008 - 9:02 PM
        So you need to find the fourth house cusp. What is on the cusp of your fourth house and then find the ruler. My cusp is either Cancer or Leo. I like them both on the fourth house cusp. If it is Cancer then the Moon rules my fourth house and the moon is in a triangulation w/a Cancer cusp if it is Leo (my usual thoughts) then there is the Sun being the ruler of my fourth house so for me it is Yin/Yang energy all the way w/my fourth house.

        BTW is your chart posted to look at here? NO ONE has mentioned what sign is on your 4th house cusp? If you want.
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          Re: Pluto IN the 4th

          Fri, February 22, 2008 - 4:36 AM
          Reid,

          There's a picture of my chart on my page. Virgo is on the 4th house cusp.
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            Re: Pluto IN the 4th

            Fri, February 22, 2008 - 5:03 AM
            ooops, my bad.

            I thought that was Scorpio on the 4th house cusp-it's the chart. they colored the earth signs blue, and it's friggin small...but the things I said still stand...

            So, Pluto isn't the ruler of ur 4th, Mercury is. And it's conjunct Venus-that would mean comfort in the home is quite important, and so is beauty. U can only feel at home in a beautiful surrounding. Since Venus rules possessions and money, the conjunction to Mercury would mean u are rational with regards to the money investments u make in ur home.
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              Re: Pluto IN the 4th

              Fri, February 22, 2008 - 1:31 PM
              Ha, and again your description amuses me! I was just cleaning up the mess in my livingroom this evening, thinking of new ways to create a more comfortable and, yes, beautiful home, which to me is all about light, colours, the feel of things, atmosphere; not about owning expensive stuff. Although i could really do with a new couch. ;)
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                Re: Pluto IN the 4th

                Fri, February 22, 2008 - 1:41 PM
                Natesa,

                If you read your 4th house cusp starting w/Virgo then Mecurey would be the ruler of the 4th house. That would give a 90 degree angle of house w/ruler. Generating a lot of energy w/well thought out communication skills.

                If you read your 4th house cusp starting w/Libra then Venus would be your ruler of that house and that is not quite squared the cusp but just shy of 90 degrees in Capricorn close to Sagittarius. Not quite the same energy producer as Virgo/Mecurey. Maybe lots of peacemaking abilities in the home, making the home comfortable for close friends and family. A natural ability to construct a warm beautiful enviornment. I wonder do you easily spend money on your home settings or are you more discretionary in spending, perhaps even enjoying a rustic setting now and then? Pared down and easy going. Did not read the whole chart.

                Pluto is visiting in the 4th cusp.Pluto in Libra sounds rather interesting. What can you tell about that placement.
                • Re: Pluto IN the 4th

                  Sat, February 23, 2008 - 2:48 AM
                  This is all very intereting as I have Pluto in Libra in the 4th opp. my Moon in Aries ... the moon, of course, being another indicator of the home. It can indicate serious power struggles concerning where you call home and can mean periods of wandering and homelessness even if these power struggles go your way. But ...hmmm... it does sound better than Saturn in the 4thH, I guess :) I think the Libra here means you are wanting a peaceful environment, a harmonious environment, but perhaps this cannot occur until you have a one - on - one confrontation with the source of the power struggle. Libra probably wants to do it diplomatically, but maybe Pluto keeps wanting to throw the whole thing in the deep end.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
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                    Re: Pluto IN the 4th

                    Sat, February 23, 2008 - 9:01 AM
                    This is very interesting indeed! Thanks for all your comments.

                    Reid,
                    I wouldn't know what Pluto in Libra is like, because this material is all new to me and i haven't quite figured out how it relates to me and my life. So, i have to get back to you on that one.

                    I do think both Mercury and Venus have an impact. Firstly bacause they're conjunct, secondly because the 4th house cusp is definitely in Virgo, while Pluto is sitting in the 4th in Libra.
                    I recognize myself in both your descriptions: the well thought of communication skills (I'm a poet, writing in my mothertongue, which is dutch), and being the home's peacemaker (which i hate, but can't seem to help).
                    And i do crave for a warm, harmonious, beautiful home, trying to fulfill those needs, without ever really succeeding. I'm very messy, never satisfied (sounds plutonic?), always thinking of better ways to furnish my house, but hardly ever spending money on furniture, because i just don't have a lot of it. I am known for creating a comfortable atmosphere and thinking up creative solutions though.
                    • Re: Pluto IN the 4th

                      Sat, February 23, 2008 - 9:12 AM
                      Pluto in Libra = Transformational relationships? Your partner seen as a foil or agent of your own psyche. The people who are in a relationship with you are aids to your own transformation and that would usually mean greater potential for intense make or break relationships emotionally and psychologically; a tendency to want deeper than just dinner dates and social banter. A kindredness if you like. I was told that this is further accentuated if this placement is in the 7th house.

                      Pluto in the 4th house- wise I would agree with Mantis that this could mean family secrets, or a tendency for the family to be subjected to life- threatening or life- changing incidents; the sole breadwinner may pass on for instance, forcing the family to take on responsibilities that they would otherwise not undertake, or the family has decided to convert to a new religion. A history of sexual abuse in the family is another possibility, in my opinion this falls under life- threatening/ life- changing incidents, rarely are people the same after such afflictions, but this also calls for healing within the home and depending on the people who make it up, how much this healing can take place on a collective and/ or personal level.
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                      Re: Pluto IN the 4th

                      Sat, February 23, 2008 - 9:22 AM
                      "Libra probably wants to do it diplomatically, but maybe Pluto keeps wanting to throw the whole thing in the deep end."
                      That probably nails it Elka!

                      How do you relate to the whole power struggle in the home environment part?
                      I've always felt as if my whole life is one big power struggle, so i don't know how to separate the indoors from the outdoors (yet) when it comes to power issues.
                      • Re: Pluto IN the 4th

                        Sat, February 23, 2008 - 11:48 AM
                        Hi Natesa. Trine Mars, i can't tell what house mars is in from your chart.
                        Mars Moon. very willfull conj. My son has this in 11th Taurus.

                        you said: "How do you relate to the whole power struggle in the home environment part?
                        I've always felt as if my whole life is one big power struggle, so i don't know how to separate the indoors from the outdoors (yet) when it comes to power issues"

                        That be the trine I'd suspect. I can see this from either 11th or 12th.
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                          Re: Pluto IN the 4th

                          Sat, February 23, 2008 - 2:56 PM
                          Pluto trining Mars, yup, that's correct. Makes a lot of sense also!

                          Mars and moon are in the the 12th (I must admit this chart i put up isn't too clear...).
                          Can you tell me something about the willfullness of a moon/mars conjunction?
                          • Re: Pluto IN the 4th

                            Sun, February 24, 2008 - 12:39 AM
                            The 12th after midnight..yep yep..lol
                            Anyway I see stuff in 12 as automatic. Instinctual.
                            They say about 12th energies that often others see it clear, but the person doesn’t.
                            I think of it like: if someone tosses a ball at you, your hand goes up to catch it,
                            or just to fend it. Your aware you did this, but not really how.

                            Mars/ Moon conj. Well Mars is the “Me first” fire. And think of the moon as the needed fuel.
                            My son has this energy that’s often really hard to manage as a parent. You see he wants to be the boss. Power struggles. Have you seen the movie “The river runs through it”
                            Brad pit character when he was a kid. The scene were he sits all day, and into the night NOT eating the bowl of oatmeal. He was NOT going to be told what to do. Some Uranian stuff there too but… It’s not so much a stubborn-ness per say, my son does have this in Taurus so…..eeeeeeh!!..
                            But a definite willfulness.
                            In Gemini 12th I’d say there is a strong need to have a certain control over your perceptions of connective-ness. With the 12th placement you may be a little reserved about interacting until you feel you are more in the driver’s seat, so to speak.

                            Anyway yes –no??
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                              Re: Pluto IN the 4th

                              Sun, February 24, 2008 - 3:36 PM
                              Well, uhmm, let's see...

                              I'm this honey-pie turning tough cookie when it comes to exchanging thoughts and insights (moon&mars in Gemini, Sun in Aquarius?).
                              I just need to have the upper hand when it comes to psychological insight. I just do. lol (not that they let me have it). I'm always dissecting other peoples behaviour: searching for their motives, underlying psychological energies etc. etc. (not to their face ofcourse, at least most of the time i don't) but nobody is allowed to approach me any closer than a foot or two. I need to figure myself out all by myself, unless ofcourse i chose you to help me.
                              Sounds oatmealish? (I didn't see that movie, but it's a clear picture)

                              This 12th house placement is much more emotional complex to me though. Providing a vulnerability and sensitivity that are overwhelming.
  • Re: Pluto IN the 4th

    Wed, February 27, 2008 - 8:41 AM
    I have a Mars/Pluto conjunction in Leo in the 4th house. Many times, Pluto in the 4th indicates a strong matriarch, usually a grandmother, in the family sphere growing up. I grew up in the same household with my father's mother, who was always at odds with my mother. Mars/Pluto is a vivid description of that early family environment.

    Having a Mars/Pluto conjunction in a house usually associated with water is interesting, as my chart does not contain the water element.

    Michele Adler
    www.micheleadler.com
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      Re: Pluto IN the 4th

      Sat, March 1, 2008 - 3:24 PM
      Thank you Michele.

      And it doesn't surprise me one bit, since my family is crowded with (strong) matriarchs.
      I keep being amazed by the power and clarity of astrology though!
  • Re: Pluto IN the 4th

    Thu, March 6, 2008 - 9:25 PM
    I have Pluto in the 4th in Virgo in my natal chart though it doesn't conjunct the IC. It not only conjuncts Uranus; it also makes more aspects than any other planet in my chart, including opposition to retro Saturn and retro Chiron both in the 10th house in Pisces, square to Jupiter in the 12th house in Gemini, square to the Moon in the 6th house in Sagittarius, square to the North Node in the 12th house in Gemini and square to the South Node in the 6th house in Virgo.

    What's really strange is that I have two brothers, born in different years and at different times of year, yet both also have Pluto and Uranus in the fourth house! One has them in a loose conjunction with Uranus in Libra and Pluto in Virgo. His Pluto is conjunct the IC and opposes his Moon in Pisces in the tenth house. The other brother has Uranus in Scorpio and Pluto in Libra in the fourth, but they are not conjunct. His Pluto also conjuncts his IC and opposes Jupiter conjunct the MC in Aries in the 10th house.

    Recently, I've come to realize that I and my family have a lot of Pluto-Moon energy in our backgrounds. I seem to have it strongest and have come to accept myself as a Plutonian person, that is someone very intense, interested in the occult, into digging deeply to find the root causes of problems, and someone a little too familiar with emotions that are less than politically correct. I still find it fascinating that three siblings would have the same two planets in the fourth house and would be interested in any additional interpretations anyone may offer about this.
    • Re: Pluto IN the 4th

      Fri, March 7, 2008 - 10:03 AM
      Natesa,
      We are almost in the same boat. I have Virgo cusp 4th house, but Libra 4th with Moon and Pluto tenants. Mercury is on the 10th/11th cusp in Aries. This is what I am thinking, based on what you discussed with your family and your chart, about my chart and my family: I was raised by a single mother (Pluto or Moon in 4th?) in a family that has alot of secrets (Pluto?) and growing up the environment was wrought with alot of changes and spontaneous shifts, some volatile, some violent (Mercury conjunct Mars?) which always affected me with alot of burden because I always searched for harmony and put myself on the line (Pisces MC?) for the sake of harmony in my family (Libra 4th?), including denying my own physical, mental and emotional needs, therefore internalizing these familial issues, carrying the burdens (Pluto?) instead of reacting to them. Also, the kids in my family were always told to "make something of themselves," (Mercury conj Mars 10th/11th cusp?) but we were never given support to do so. I'm a Cancer rising, so my emotional body (Moon in natural 4th home?) has always been intrinsic to me.

      I read somewhere (I forgot where, sorry) that Pluto in the 4th, karmically, means the person in question was under rule of a heavy-handed element in a past life, pertaining to the 4th house. For example, perhaps in my past life I was ruled by a heavy-handed, strict mother (Moon in 4th as well?) and this karmic energy followed me into this life?

      In terms of my Virgo-Libra home, I too need to have a pleasant, beautiful to look at house. But it has to be practical and make sense to me. People who have luxurious homes for the sake of luxury don't make sense to me. The details have to come together to make sense, but in the end still be aesthetically pleasing. It's really important that i decorate in a way that makes people feel comfortable that come into my house, too.
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        Re: Pluto IN the 4th

        Sat, March 8, 2008 - 7:43 AM
        Wow, you both really hit a nerve! Our upbringings probably were quite different, but the feel of it all seems to be very similar.
        I have to get back to you on this, because over here it's almost 5 p.m. and the shops are nearly closing...
      • Re: Pluto IN the 4th

        Sat, March 8, 2008 - 9:58 PM
        Hey everyone! I just had to join this tribe. I am excited to find others that have similar natal positions as mine. Thanks for starting this blog! I too have Virgo as my 4th house cusp with Libra in most of the 4th. Sorry can't remember the degrees. My SN is in Libra then following that I have Uranus and Pluto in the 4th as well. I can agree with alot of what was said about disfunction, family secrets, etc. I was in and out of foster care 3 times during my childhood, but always returned back to Mom, eventually. And I would agree with the posts about having to learn to stand on my own as an adult as a result I don't like changes to my home life now. I would also agree that home to me means to me harmony and I strive for that - I will move heaven and earth to get it too :') Life for me right now is stable, but Uranus will always be there. They say that 4th house placements also effect the later years. Do you all believe that some patterns will repeat those of the earlier year experiences?
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          Re: Pluto IN the 4th

          Wed, March 12, 2008 - 2:10 PM
          Thanks for the comments everybody!
          Seems good old little Pluto (or should i say Hades?) has given us similar experiences.

          A few months ago i went to see a (clairvoyant) manual healer. She asked me wether i was raised in fosterhomes, because something about me told her my parents hadn't been around when i was growing up(!).

          The truth is i was raised by both my parents. My father fell ill when i was still a little kid though, and he nearly died several times before he finally did when i was in my late teens. The disease that had caused his father to die at a very young age eventually also killed him, and has been genetically passed on to me. Because of this - from an early age on- my future has always seen to be a grim and dreadful prospect.
          So yes, i firmly believe these patterns will in one way or another be repeated.

          And i'm right there with you Derrick, when you talk about denying your mental, physical and emotional needs (I've also got a Pisces MC and Cancer rising! With Moon in the 12th). I still do that.
          Your comment about people buying luxurious stuff for the sake of luxury makes me smile - big time. You took that one right out of my head! Maybe we should all get together some time and do some serious interior decorating. lol
          • Re: Pluto IN the 4th

            Tue, March 25, 2008 - 9:23 AM
            Wow, it's interesting how we've all interpreted our charts so remarkably alike. It's always good to see reinforcement from others. I'm trying to figure out how to mix Virgo IC with Libra 4th, however. Does that mean at my core I'm very Virgoan, but my early home life was quite Libran? I have, in the past, continued my past poor Libran behaviour of glossing over domestic troubles in order to maintain harmony. I am definately working on keeping from doing that now but I think it ties into what you said Natesa about issue repeating. Especially with upbringing and family because I think it becomes so ingrained that it cna follow you into adulthood.
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              Re: Pluto IN the 4th

              Sat, March 29, 2008 - 2:46 AM

              "it's always good to see reinforcement from others."
              Yeah, it is.

              I'm not sure how to mix the Virgo IC with Libra 4th though.
              But maintaining harmony (being the diplomate!) sounds very familiar to me and is something that definitely stems from my childhood/upbringing. So what you say about Virgo being the core and Libra being the early home environment does make sense.

              It would be nice to be able to use these peacemaking skills when we really need them, and when we really want to, but without constantly disregarding our own (emotional) needs, dont you think?
              I found that i can be the glue that holds people together without me consciously doing the glueing. It's actually quite a powerful position, that i don't always want to have. But at the same time it holds great potential.
              • Re: Pluto's North Node

                Mon, March 31, 2008 - 9:09 PM
                Hi everyone,

                My Pluto's North Node is exactly conjunct my IC. I understand that this placement is similar to having Pluto conjunct the IC.
                Interestingly, I was born near a swamp in Miami Beach. (See first post.)
                Though Pluto is harmoniously aspected in my fifth house, there have been power issues galore in my household, which is my mom's house.
                There will be future power issues when I have to ban my siblings from the house for good reasons.
                Thanks to Raymond for helping me with planetary nodes.

                Kelly

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