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moon in fourth house

topic posted Tue, May 13, 2008 - 10:01 AM by  LegionOfMary
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moon in pisces in 4th house-any insight?
posted by:
LegionOfMary
New York
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  • Re: moon in fourth house

    Mon, April 13, 2009 - 7:49 PM
    you must be really SUPER sensitive. I have the moon in the 4th also...but in cancer. I am really affected by other people's feelings and their feelings influence me a lot. So much so that I have to get away from negative people or end up getting sick.....but with pisces, it seems like it would make you even more of an empath than me.
    • Re: moon in fourth house

      Wed, July 8, 2009 - 6:09 PM
      wow that's interesting ...i have moon in 4th and its scorpio and I developed and anxiety disorder at a point in my life when I had to deal with others negative emotions as a job.
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      Re: moon in fourth house

      Thu, August 19, 2010 - 1:56 PM
      I have Pisces on my 4th, no planets. Very private at home. Dislike "drop-ins'. Do not like to share my space. Love quiet and solitude at home. Never threw a party.
      Married first time for 5 years to a Pisces. Send husband of 15 years was Pisces. Lived with roommate for two years that was Pisces.
  • Re: moon in fourth house

    Wed, April 28, 2010 - 2:26 PM
    I have a Capricorn Moon in the fourth, and Neptune is Conjunct the IC... do you guys think this would make me a little more emotional than the average Cap Moon? It's just that sometimes I read the Capricorn Moon descriptions and I feel like a lot of it matches me and a lot of it doesn't... my Midheaven is Cancer naturally, so maybe that makes me a bit more sensitive too.

    Would you say that my Moon being in the 4th gives it a touch of Cancer?
    • Re: moon in fourth house

      Wed, April 28, 2010 - 4:30 PM
      Antonis,

      of course, moon in 4th house would do that.
      • Re: moon in fourth house

        Wed, April 28, 2010 - 4:38 PM
        So it's like this for every house then? For instance, I have Mars in Virgo in the 12th house, so that means that there is a touch of Pisces to my Mars?
        • Re: moon in fourth house

          Wed, April 28, 2010 - 4:47 PM
          From what I have seen, yeah. I have a friend who has mars in Leo in the 12th house. He has typical mars leo attributes, yet he only shows them when he feels safe. he cannot express his anger directly, alot of it is channeled into his imagination, and he creates amazing art. He has outer body experiences, and he used to sleep walk when he was younger. He is very very good at martial arts, but prefers the softer Tai Chi forms. His physicality is quite feminine, introverted yet proud.

          Moon in 4th in Capricorn, highly sensitive and reserved. Finds structure through nurturing, or feels nurtured through structure. Perhaps the moon in 4th house indicates mothering father? Especially in capricorn..Also depends on the moons aspects.
          • Re: moon in fourth house

            Wed, April 28, 2010 - 9:29 PM
            i imagine a general sense of emotional security, or at least stability, associated with moon in 4th, all other aspects and signs being neutral
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: moon in fourth house

          Thu, July 29, 2010 - 4:48 PM
          "I have Mars in Virgo in the 12th house, so that means that there is a touch of Pisces to my Mars?"

          I would read that as having 'hidden' aggression (mars) first, then expressing it in a 'judgemental' way next (virgo)....

          Sorry, not sure why I had to respond to this particular post, since it is a 4th house post and all I have in the 12th is my sun and moon.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: moon in fourth house

    Fri, July 9, 2010 - 2:42 AM
    My moon is in virgo in my 3rd house,conjunct my IC so it's also interpreted in my 4th house. So, I have the influence from both houses.

    I would think the moon in 4th in Pisces would cause you to be sensitive to your environment. Maybe you read people? These are just thoughts on how this might manifest.
    • Re: moon in fourth house

      Wed, July 28, 2010 - 6:31 PM
      my daughters moon is in gemini in the 4th. any insights?
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        Re: moon in fourth house

        Thu, July 29, 2010 - 4:51 PM
        Yes, you have an air trine, actually, you're all air...that's what she sees: you are her 4th house (which is traditionally given to the dad)..but, shes attached to you and your air...she likes to talk to you, it comforts her. enjoy this, since it it you!
        • Re: moon in fourth house

          Mon, August 2, 2010 - 10:50 PM
          Varoom!! Thank you so much, this is music to my ears!! But are you sure that it applies to me? i have an air trine? ill have to go look at my chart again!
          I am not all air, we both have sun leo signs...not sure how you worked this out but i have seen you on tribe from time to time and you seem to know a bit about astro, so im clinging to your words!! When i first saw the moon gemini in her chart i was seriously freaked out and was told things like...she thinks your more intellectual than emotional/comforting...somethings along those lines and when you read up on moon gemini the stereotypes are not all that comforting to read as a first time mum. but i like the way you put it, if it is true.

          the other thing was that her moon has a wide orb (9degrees i think) with saturn!!! That was the other thing that really freaked me out!! any thoughts? but she also has moon trine jupiter, so i think that maybe balances it out... Our composite chart shows that we have sun/mercury/marsconjunction in the eighth (!!!) trine moon/chiron conjunction in the 3rd...which is also intreging! Anyway, any thoughts would be appreciated (can be honest bout it!)

          Sorry for going OT...

          Thank you all...

          Love S.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: moon in fourth house

            Thu, August 5, 2010 - 10:37 PM
            She has an air trine...It's all about her...
            That's what happens when we have children, it stops being about us.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: moon in fourth house

              Thu, August 5, 2010 - 10:38 PM
              It was my error earlier, I meant to say "she has an air trine...she sees you as comforting, because..."
              • Re: moon in fourth house

                Sat, August 7, 2010 - 6:24 AM
                ah ok that makes sense. she is a real character thats for sure and has well developed verbal skills for a one year old! After dadda, mumma, bubba and nan nan came....Teddy!!! aaaawwww... oh she is so cute, so lovely. my bubs!
                thanks varoom
                S.
                • Re: moon in fourth house

                  Sat, August 7, 2010 - 6:27 AM
                  and yes it is all about her she is the centre of my universe but of course as a mum you always think about what YOU can do to be the best mum possible. anyway, i think the answer is simple- love x
          • Re: moon in fourth house

            Thu, August 12, 2010 - 8:17 AM
            "I am not all air, we both have sun leo signs...not sure how you worked this out but i have seen you on tribe from time to time and you seem to know a bit about astro, so im clinging to your words!! When i first saw the moon gemini in her chart i was seriously freaked out and was told things like...she thinks your more intellectual than emotional/comforting...somethings along those lines and when you read up on moon gemini the stereotypes are not all that comforting to read as a first time mum. but i like the way you put it, if it is true. "

            It's a bad idea to project yourself into your child's chart (and by proxy onto your child). Nothing good will come of it. You do not have monopoly over your child's moon in gemini nor her moon generally. It means a lot more than you, her physical actual mother. Just like your moon isn't a caricature of your own mother. Moon and motherhood is just one connection.

            "Our composite chart shows that we have sun/mercury/marsconjunction in the eighth (!!!) trine moon/chiron conjunction in the 3rd...which is also intreging! Anyway, any thoughts would be appreciated (can be honest bout it!) "

            But why are you so worried about it in the first place? Sounds like you've got some other issue with parenting yourself that are kind of unrelated to your child and are your own issues.

            "the other thing was that her moon has a wide orb (9degrees i think) with saturn!!! That was the other thing that really freaked me out!! any thoughts?"

            Yes, you're expecting yourself to be Perfect Mother, who your child will adore and see as without fault or stress. Your child's chart is perfect for her and you shouldn't try to bounce back opinions on yourself by way of your child's chart. A 9 degree orb is pretty wide to begin with but even let's go along with it, so what? Moon square Saturn isn't the end of the world and it doesn't mean that you are a terrible, evil, cold witch mother who is harsh and cynical and critical! Also it's not about trying to 'balance' it out by other chart factors like trines to jupiter, it shouldn't be reduced to a jupiter aspect so put a tick in the 'positive' side of the equation, square to saturn so add a tick to the 'negative' side of the equation and then count up the pros and cons and see which is best. It is not that one cancels the other out, they both work together properly in a complicated system. They do not compete against one another.

            Here's my view on moon square saturn instead. Let Moon = Mother and Saturn + Sun = Father. Let's simplify it even more by saying Saturn = Father. What do we have? A relationship of the Mother and Father and the relationship is one which aspects by Square - mommy and daddy create friction between them. They do not see eye to eye, there is tension there, there is a bit of strain, they're from differing worlds and needs. The most likely? Mommy and Daddy are not together or are arguing.
            Moon square Saturn, or Moon opposition Sun etc are not uncommon in the charts of people whose parents were like chalk and cheese, or who didn't get on well or who were literally separated somehow.

            What it isn't, however, is YOUR chart, it's your child's. This is why I have a problem with reading the chart of children, particulary your OWN children. We use their chart as a tool to examine ourselves. We shouldn't. That's what our OWN charts are for. NOthing good ever seems to come of this, instead fears and worries are projected into the child's chart and fears about bad parenting and "what if she doesn't like me" start emerging. Suddenly the child, who can barely even talk, shoulders a great deal of responsibility that she has to be 'just right' for mommy - and hey, look, child has moon square saturn/responsibility. By doing this you may actually become the very thing you didn't want to become. One thing you cannot do is pervert the course of nature, that child has moon square saturn for a reason and you can try as much as you want but ultimately that child will STILL have moon square saturn when you're done.

            Still afraid that something awful will happen or your child will hate you?
            Luckily I have a similar set up. Moon isn't in Gemini, but in another air sign, Aquarius. It is also in my 4th House. It is also square Saturn and more tightly than your child's and Saturn is in my 1st house.
            I get on great with my mother. My problem is in my inability to be able to move out. Moon in the 4th like the comfort of living at home, yes, even when it's in an air sign cos maybe with Moon in an air sign Mom eventually realises that what this kid needs is plenty of space and air to breathe.
            • Re: moon in fourth house

              Sun, August 15, 2010 - 6:10 AM
              I dont disagree with your opinion entirely and your entitled to it but everyone gets into astrology for their own personal reasons and to be quite frank (sorry) but its none of your business to judge me for that. if im barking up the wrong tree in looking into astro to understand things (which are more complicated than anything i write or query on tribe) then thats my path, my problem. I only ever dabble with astrology occasionally, it doesnt dominate my life or my thinking OR (most important) my relationship with my daughter. and your defined boundaries and "ethics" of astrology are fine to have, for you but i may not prescribe to that. i wasnt asking to be judged for my thinking, in fact what i have asked on tribe is onyl a small aspect of my thoughts and thinking but you probably dont see that.

              paul you said: "What it isn't, however, is YOUR chart, it's your child's. This is why I have a problem with reading the chart of children, particulary your OWN children. We use their chart as a tool to examine ourselves. We shouldn't. That's what our OWN charts are for. NOthing good ever seems to come of this, instead fears and worries are projected....."" -->

              but on the other hand people are quite happy to use their chart to form opinions about the relationship that their parents had...or the type of mother they had, or the environment they grew up in...or they look at the chart as a REPRESENTATION of aspects outside of themselves! Which probably isnt fair either really. So it doesnt take much logic to understand how a mother might examine her childs chart and look to understand how the "mother" might be represented in the chart.

              re the moon square sat thing, your actually spot on....and yes we do argue a bit. i hope we can sort it out. its causing me a lot of grief but hopefully it hasnt been so bad as to impinge on my daughters healthy development...i dont think so she certainly is a happy baby and is gregarious and social too...

              And...of course my daughter doesnt/will not hate me...we are going to have a close and wonderful relationship, no doubt about that. but ii think you ghave made it quite clear that you dont support the use of astrology to examine aspects of a relationship with a child. doors closed. fair enough. i could say plenty more but i am beginning to realise that this forum is not the place to get constructive feedback about these matters. or to learn to interprete this stuff.. ok
              • Re: moon in fourth house

                Sun, August 15, 2010 - 11:20 AM
                "and to be quite frank (sorry) but its none of your business to judge me for that."

                Erm I'm not judging you for getting into astrology. I'm just providing my own understanding of your question.

                "and "ethics" of astrology are fine to have, for you but i may not prescribe to that"

                Of course, I don't recall trying to force you either way. However I don't see why offering my viewpoint on it should be criticised. I'm not the only person who wouldn't read the chart of a toddler, most astrologers wouldn't either. In fact many astrologers who have a qualification have to sign a code of ethics of sorts and some of them even state not to read the charts of children. This is not arbitrary, it is for a reason. I'm not saying you have to adhere to that reason, I am just saying that it is worth being aware of the problems here.

                "i wasnt asking to be judged for my thinking, in fact what i have asked on tribe is onyl a small aspect of my thoughts and thinking but you probably dont see that."

                Again, I'm not judging you, just cautioning you.

                "but on the other hand people are quite happy to use their chart to form opinions about the relationship that their parents had...or the type of mother they had, or the environment they grew up in...or they look at the chart as a REPRESENTATION of aspects outside of themselves! Which probably isnt fair either really."

                The HUGE difference is that you can project your fears and opinions etc onto anything you want, however a child is DEPENDING on you and is utterly helpless to you completely. Unlike your parents and anybody else, in fact there are no other situations that are the same as projecting yourself into a child's chart.

                "So it doesnt take much logic to understand how a mother might examine her childs chart and look to understand how the "mother" might be represented in the chart. "

                If you say so. If you disagree with me, go for it.

                "hopefully it hasnt been so bad as to impinge on my daughters healthy development"

                These things can go either way, one thing that you have to accept if you agree with astrology is that there is no tabula rasa state. In certain branches of psychology there is a a priori 'blank slate' approach to the mind which is a blank slate written upon by life and by experiences such as with the parents etc etc. Astrology does away with this as it assumes certain in built characteristics or approaches. As an example take a stereotypical example of a mother and parent. Let's imagine that the mother treats the child the EXACT same in both instances but one child has a venus moon conjunction, the other has a pluto moon opposition. In the first case there is an ASSUMPTION that mother is pleasant, nice, touchy feely, perhaps some kind of erotic aspect too. In the other example mother is poisonous, she doesn't hold us enough, she shouts sometimes, there is a psychic hold over the child and when the mother is feeling blue the child is scared ...etc etc etc. You get the idea, so the basic premise is that NO MATTER what you do, the child still has moon square saturn, you can be St. Sarah The Perfect Mother, but child still PERCEIVES a moon square saturn environment all the same - how objectively true that is is actually irrelevant as people are not entirely objective. The whole crux of it though is that the child has moon square saturn for a reason, there are things to be learned about those aspects that one way or another WILL be learned and there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it. That's just part of being alive and incarnating is all about. In fact experiencing these moon square saturn themes early on may in fact be beneficial in the long term when other moon square saturn themes occur in adulthood. One thing Saturn is good at, in fact is best at, is cutting the BS and showing you life just as it really is, not holding your hand and treating you with kid gloves, but just putting it out there. This is life, it's not a fantasy land and yes, sometimes mommy and daddy argue too, but hey we still love you even if we argue. Life isn't always a bed of roses.

                "And...of course my daughter doesnt/will not hate me"

                Okay because from your earlier posts it appeared that this was a fear of yours. I wanted to put that fear out of your head by using my own example.
                Consider some of your early posts and you'll probably see why I thought that:

                "the other thing was that her moon has a wide orb (9degrees i think) with saturn!!! That was the other thing that really freaked me out!! any thoughts? but she also has moon trine jupiter, so i think that maybe balances it out"

                "i was seriously freaked out and was told things like...she thinks your more intellectual than emotional/comforting"

                It paints a picture of someone 'freaked out' by certain aspects of a child's chart. That's the bit that was worrying when there's no need to be freaked out. I could of course have just ignored the posts and let you continue to allow your child's chart to freak you out, but why, when a simple post can (hopefully) show things in a different light. For example the moon in gemini does not indicate that the mother is emotionally aloof or cold etc etc. These are all really irritating things that astrologers write but aren't true and then they do the damage as they appeared to do with you. There are no 'good' and no 'bad' placements of the moon, especially with regards sign.
                • Re: moon in fourth house

                  Sun, August 15, 2010 - 12:09 PM
                  i agree with paul
                  it's okay to look at your kids' charts, but only with a degree of detachment that the average mother simply can't muster.
                  take a peek and marvel, but don't even begin to grope for "answers" to ANY of the questions that will almost certainly cross your mind.

                  a pair of leo suns . . . what more is there REALLY to say ?
                • Re: moon in fourth house

                  Mon, August 16, 2010 - 2:12 PM
                  I do understand your perspective. and i understand the pitfalls of looking at a childs chart. most astrologers on here that i have spoken to who are parents have done the same but may have not posted their questions or thoughts online. i can see exactely how it may be deterimental but with me i only dabble in astro from time to time, pulll it out and all to pieces and put it away again for months and sometimes years. it doesnt absorb me completely.

                  the word "freaked out" was used very loosely and I say that now bc i have some perspective on things and the initial concern that i felt having looked at those aspects has diminished. i was describing my reaction at the time but i dont feel "freaked"out.

                  but despite all you say about the chart not representing me objectively (which i agree with), you still go on to give examples of how the moon in a chart might represent mother in this post, so it is not hard to see how and why a mother might be curious to see how "mother"is represented in a childs chart. Re ethics, i can understand why astrologers dont read childs charts and I too have turned a blind eye to most other astrological aspects and dont intend on probing into the rest. But understanding the mother dynamic is something that i am interested in, for the most obvious reason but also as i have looked closely at the moon aspects of my own chart (moon aquarius) and along with my mother we have discussed various family dynamics in my brothers' charts and my step dad and its fascinating. my mum doesnt know as much about astrology as me but i see how my mother is the "moon aquarius"mother, more as i grow up, anyway OT....


                  u say there are no good or bad placements with the moon ---> disagree. sure its all learning and karma and ones own path etc... but in a more practical sense, who really wants moon square uranus! (i have it, dont want it, makes me an anxious person! yeah yeah i know there are other ways of looking at it)


                  and as i was saying about other astrologers on here who have all looked at their childs chart.....if you know more about astrology then a quick look would suffice to get all the information you were interested in but if you dont know, then its partly left up to your imagination and the rest you might can some persective on by asking questions. or you might end up in a debate about the wisdom or ethics of what you do! but i challenge you to find an astrologer on here who IS a parent who hasnt had a little look at their childs chart! Theyll all say... oh but i only had a little look and didnt focus on it...what ever! my thoughts are out there, so sue me. i dont focus on it either. when i walk away from this computer i will get on with my day and enjoy being a mum! Time for coffee and some breakfast.

                  So you judge me but as i say i challenge you to find a parent on here who hasnt to some degree or another. (and you probably will now and ill be silenced...) maybe those ppl know how to intepret things basically and that has satisfied their interest.

                  i dunno.

                  anyway, yes fixating on this stuff would be unhealthy and the point you make about projection is valid i think but you dont need astrology to project...
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: moon in fourth house

                    Tue, August 17, 2010 - 12:56 AM
                    "most astrologers on here that i have spoken to who are parents have done the same but may have not posted their questions or thoughts online."

                    I'm sure they do, how could you not, however my main point is more to do with seeing something in your child's chart that would freak you out as it's a sure sign that you're just projecting into the chart. The question is less whether astrologers check the chart and more whether they are freaked out by the chart. If you'r esaying now that the freaked out was used loosely and not really reflective of what you felt then my post is probably unwarranted. But if there really is something in a child's chart that causes you to be worried or freaked out then you should really not look at the chart!

                    "but despite all you say about the chart not representing me objectively (which i agree with), you still go on to give examples of how the moon in a chart might represent mother in this post"

                    Okay I thought I was clear on this, but obviously not, the Moon represents a whole host of things ONE of which is the mother and even then it is not an objective outlook of the mother but is more a subjective outlook on how the child expects and likes to be nurtured which is projected onto the mother. Taking moon in gemini, this could just as likely indicate that the child needs mental stimulation and degree of light heartedness in order to feel emotionally safe and nurtured and may project this onto you and think "mommy is smart and cereberal and gives me space and teaches me lots of things". It doesn't have to be something like "mommy is cold and unfeeling". In other words you can either focus on the best qualities of air or on the worst. Neither of which will be indicative of you REALLY as proven by the fact that the different children with the same mother will have different moons each of which pick up on different aspects of their perception of their mother. If you want to understand yourself, your best bet is to study your own chart and not your children's.

                    "u say there are no good or bad placements with the moon ---> disagree"

                    Okay, we'll have to agree to disagree then. You say Moon square Uranus is a 'bad' aspect, but it in fact makes you who you are. However sometimes moon square uranus can experience moments of feeling 'divorced' from their feeling nature and depending on the person and on other factors this can seem like apathy or like objectivity. Some, however, fear the idea that at times they can feel cold and unemotional. To be frank about it, I wonder if that's partially at work here as it would explain the disdain for anything in the child's chart which might portray you as cold and unemotional like your description of moon in gemini suggested. It would make sense why you wouldn't want that and that it would freak you out.

                    "So you judge me but as i say i challenge you to find a parent on here who hasnt to some degree or another."

                    Always the presumption of being judged. It's your child and your life, do what you want, all I'm offering is the opportunity to not be freaked out by a toddler's chart. If you feel that it's judgemental of me to offer my viewpoint on the lack of wisdom in reading a child's chart nobody will stop you, but it doesnt' make it the case.
                    • Re: moon in fourth house

                      Thu, August 19, 2010 - 7:28 AM
                      yeah might be some truth in the moon uranus thing. also moon aquarius.
                      i dont disdain anything i see in my daughters chart, just trying to understand a few basic things. i didnt even want to delve into the chart and examine all aspects, just look at the aspect that may potentially represent mother/mothering/parenting ... i know you dont agree. i think its the mooon sign and aspects that are most relevant..?

                      and yes all your arguement about it being her perception and not objective reality is probably true but when you read personality focused texts like Linda green (i think thats her name) it isnt really presented that way.

                      does a wide orb dampen effects? is it technically a sq with a 9 degree orb? between moon/sat that is?

                      anyway, i am getting tired of defending my position. you do present a strong case for not probing and i appreciate your passion about it but just knowing the basics would suffice. and i guess i am open to examinging my own chart but i dont want to get lost in that either. i have examined my chart on many levels but not regarding being a mum tho! i might have a look but im not getting to far into it. its almost time to pack astology away again; for a while.

                      S.
                      • Re: moon in fourth house

                        Thu, August 19, 2010 - 7:50 AM
                        "i didnt even want to delve into the chart and examine all aspects, just look at the aspect that may potentially represent mother/mothering/parenting ... i know you dont agree. i think its the mooon sign and aspects that are most relevant..? "

                        My advice would be to read the sign that the moon is in and stop there. Don't worry yourself into reading more into it cos after that things get compliated very quickly and there are all sorts of ways that even the sign can be manifested never mind incorporating all these aspects as well. I mean really it goes back to examining the whole chart, a moon in aquarius is very different is the moon is the ONLY air planet for example, or is the subject of a t-square or is the handle of a bucket chart etc etc etc. It's complicated because people are complicated and although only a small child now, the blue print for all the complications and nuances of an adult are all there in latency.

                        So if you're trying to get a grasp on nurturing check the moon sign and the venus sign and then just stop. Looking further and you're liable to eitehr get yourself into a worry, start obsessing, or even start misinterpreting things. Even professional astrologers engage with their clients by way of dialogue cos there's so many ways that anything can be expressed that they need to double check. If they need to do it to get it done right, chances are you would have to as well, but of course in the case of a child you can't. So don't bother trying. Kinda simplistic but that's just my attitude. (this is just advice btw, not a judgement, you gotta do what you gotta do, so make the decision that you feel is best all around).

                        Moon in gemini - gonna need some intellectual stimulation, watch out for the child maintaining that she is feeling left out, give her some space, let her curiosity shine through, don't be phased if she asks 'blunt' tactless questions without considering the emotional impact of them, when it comes to that time in her life when you can, ask questinos that will cause her to think about the answers. Above all else, teach her to read as soon as you can, she'll love you for it later. Don't be surprised if she picks up adult conversation eerily quickly. Above all else, talk to her, let her be heard if she's something to say, do not use silence as a punishment against her ever, geminis don't take too kindly to that.

                        "and yes all your arguement about it being her perception and not objective reality is probably true but when you read personality focused texts like Linda green (i think thats her name) it isnt really presented that way. "

                        You'r eprobably confusing two people here. One is linda goodman, the other is liz greene. Linda goodman is a sun sign author and a good one too .... if you just want sun sign stuff. The problem with sun sign astrology is that it 'pretends' that the sun sign is the only important planet in a chart and basically ignores everything else, INCLUDING the moon sign. Liz greene on the other hand is a psychological astrologer who works with the whole chart and actually were you to read her books the sentiments I'm expressing here are likely to be found mirrored in her work, mostly because I've read nearly every one of her astrology books that she co-authored with howard sasportas and this idea of perception and expectation could have been taken almost whole sale from those books.
                      • Re: moon in fourth house

                        Thu, August 19, 2010 - 7:51 AM
                        "i didnt even want to delve into the chart and examine all aspects, just look at the aspect that may potentially represent mother/mothering/parenting ... i know you dont agree. i think its the mooon sign and aspects that are most relevant..? "

                        My advice would be to read the sign that the moon is in and stop there. Don't worry yourself into reading more into it cos after that things get compliated very quickly and there are all sorts of ways that even the sign can be manifested never mind incorporating all these aspects as well. I mean really it goes back to examining the whole chart, a moon in aquarius is very different is the moon is the ONLY air planet for example, or is the subject of a t-square or is the handle of a bucket chart etc etc etc. It's complicated because people are complicated and although only a small child now, the blue print for all the complications and nuances of an adult are all there in latency.

                        So if you're trying to get a grasp on nurturing check the moon sign and the venus sign and then just stop. Looking further and you're liable to eitehr get yourself into a worry, start obsessing, or even start misinterpreting things. Even professional astrologers engage with their clients by way of dialogue cos there's so many ways that anything can be expressed that they need to double check. If they need to do it to get it done right, chances are you would have to as well, but of course in the case of a child you can't. So don't bother trying. Kinda simplistic but that's just my attitude. (this is just advice btw, not a judgement, you gotta do what you gotta do, so make the decision that you feel is best all around).

                        Moon in gemini - gonna need some intellectual stimulation, watch out for the child maintaining that she is feeling left out, give her some space, let her curiosity shine through, don't be phased if she asks 'blunt' tactless questions without considering the emotional impact of them, when it comes to that time in her life when you can, ask questinos that will cause her to think about the answers. Above all else, teach her to read as soon as you can, she'll love you for it later. Don't be surprised if she picks up adult conversation eerily quickly. Above all else, talk to her, let her be heard if she's something to say, do not use silence as a punishment against her ever, geminis don't take too kindly to that.

                        "and yes all your arguement about it being her perception and not objective reality is probably true but when you read personality focused texts like Linda green (i think thats her name) it isnt really presented that way. "

                        You'r eprobably confusing two people here. One is linda goodman, the other is liz greene. Linda goodman is a sun sign author and a good one too .... if you just want sun sign stuff. The problem with sun sign astrology is that it 'pretends' that the sun sign is the only important planet in a chart and basically ignores everything else, INCLUDING the moon sign. Liz greene on the other hand is a psychological astrologer who works with the whole chart and actually were you to read her books the sentiments I'm expressing here are likely to be found mirrored in her work, mostly because I've read nearly every one of her astrology books that she co-authored with howard sasportas and this idea of perception and expectation could have been taken almost whole sale from those books.
                        • Re: moon in fourth house

                          Thu, August 19, 2010 - 7:52 AM
                          oops double post

                          sorry stevo, it came up saying that an error occurred when I tried to post so tried again and then realised it probably double posted. oops.

                          Feel free to remove the double post and this one also!
                          • Re: moon in fourth house

                            Sat, August 21, 2010 - 7:18 PM
                            oh yes i meant liz greene. have her book here...."the development of personality"vol 1. it makes numerous references to the moon and assumptions as to what kind of mother or relationship a person might have due to the moon placements in a chart. but havent looked at it for a while.

                            i have read some stuff on moon gemini and yes of course there are many positives. i think i have my head around that. thanks.

                            no comments on moon sq sat and the 9degree orb? thats ok, dont want to push you beyond your comfort zone (boundaries etc). have to admit tho, if you google moon/sat and take an average of the responses it doesnt paint a positive picture, however i am feeling philosophical about things now...im sure there are aspects in her chart that reveal my love and devotion. and no im not going hunting for them.

                            on astro.com i read an article about the moon and the mother who wrote it spoke of her concern about seeing a mars sq moon aspect (or something?) in her childs chart and watched how it manifested in their relationship and spoke of how she came to terms with it...im nt the only one! not crazy. but yes the article does make mention of the pitfalls of trying to interprete the moon too. www.astro.com/astrology/in_dg_moon_e.htm

                            well, thanks for the feedback and the time you put into responding, thats appreciated.

                            S.
                            • Re: moon in fourth house

                              Sun, August 22, 2010 - 8:30 AM
                              "oh yes i meant liz greene. have her book here...."the development of personality"vol 1. it makes numerous references to the moon and assumptions as to what kind of mother or relationship a person might have due to the moon placements in a chart. but havent looked at it for a while. "

                              Actually it doesn't. Instead it makes it clear that the Moon in a child's chart is not related to the objective 'real' mother, instead it is related to an inbuilt EXPECTATION of nurturing and motherhood. That's exactly what I've been saying all along.
                              In fact if you have the book on you, turn to pages 3 and 4:

                              "...psychological astrology believes that you are already born with an innate predisposition which expects certain things to happen. It is not just the childhood conditioning which is of primary importance - it is your own inner nature as seen through placements in the birth chart which predisposes you to perceive experience in a certain way."

                              "We are already born with an image of mother, an image of an archetype; .... For instance the Moon has to do with mother and all of you have the Moon in your chart, so you all have an expectation of mother already there from birth, EVEN BEFORE YOU ACTUALLY ENCOUNTER HER" [emphasis added]

                              "Inborn images and archetypes organise and structure what we experience. So, if you are born with Moon trine Jupiter then you have an inborn EXPECTATION of abundance and expansion coming through mother. Because this is what you EXPECT to see, your perception is selective; and you will tend to register more readily the times when she is being generous, expansive and Jupiterian". [ emphasis added]


                              Okay so actually if you reread the book, or even just the first section "The Stages of Childhood", you'll see that a lot of the things I've been talking about are actually referenced in that book. Also if you have The Luminaries by them, then this will expand upon it more because it is a book dealing with just the luminaries - Moon and Sun - so expand more upon the childhood stages.

                              One final quote from the book:
                              "Traditional astrology often blames the parents for what they do to us; but psycholoigcal astrology says that we are partly responsible for how we experience our parents - because of our tendency to interpret the mother's and father's actions on the basis of inborn assumptions and beliefs about what we are likely to meet.... If we are wearing blue glasses, life looks blue. If we are wearing red glasses, life looks red. Most imporatntly, it is the birthchart which depicts our archetypal conditioning and expectations."


                              "no comments on moon sq sat and the 9degree orb? "

                              Sorry I thought I already mentioned this with the example of parents not always seeing eye to eye etc, but if you mean the orb particularly then I would say that it's probably a bit too wide for me. I wouldnt' discount it entirely, but I'd be cautious about reading too much into it.
                              • Re: moon in fourth house

                                Mon, August 30, 2010 - 11:26 PM
                                Hi Paul,

                                Just wanted to say thanks again for your feedback and interpretations; cant spend too much time on computer at the mo.

                                I think the whole concept that the chart is in fact a reflection of a persons perception and not an objective reality is not to be dismissed. Started to sink in. V important point of view i think. and sensible.

                                Re the 9 degreee orb- also remembered that the "Pullen chart" weighting system (ie- on astro website) rated the moon sq saturn as not being strong in her chart anyway. But she also has moon trine jupiter, which is another positive if i were to look at it that way...

                                I dont have The Luminaries but i will keep an eye out for it. sounds interesting.

                                More chat later...

                                Thanks again

                                S.
                                • Re: moon in fourth house

                                  Tue, August 31, 2010 - 4:04 AM
                                  No problem Sarah!

                                  "I think the whole concept that the chart is in fact a reflection of a persons perception and not an objective reality is not to be dismissed. Started to sink in. V important point of view i think. and sensible. "

                                  I think this is perhaps the biggest paradigm shift between traditional and psychological approaches. The traditional approaches tend to deal with an "objective" standpoint where the chart is a reflection of an objective reality about the person. For example mars in the first house might have been read as "blemish or scar on the face" or somethign like that.
                                  Psychological astrology tends to deal more with a person as being a highly subjective individual, with the chart as the map of that subjectivity. Of course part of our subjective perceptions are because of objective realities, but that's not to say that they ALL are, or even that MOST of them are. Our perceptions may be because of genetics or environment for example, but the chart does not necessarily describe the genetics nor the objective environement - just our perception of it, for whatever reason we have those perceptions.

                                  Personally I find the psychological approaches better when it comes to interpreting a natal chart, but the traditional approaches are better for non-person oriented astrology - as in things like horary or electional astrology where the chart is not a reflection of anybody's mindset - at least not entirely. Of course the chart is always 'tinted' by the astrologer's own perceptions, but this is true of any subject or study, not just astrology.

                                  "Re the 9 degreee orb- also remembered that the "Pullen chart" weighting system (ie- on astro website) rated the moon sq saturn as not being strong in her chart anyway"

                                  Yeah I think most people wouldn't include a 9 degree orb to be honest. I mean at best I'd apply a 8-10 degree orb for a conjunction to an angle, only because the angles move so quickly that if you're not ENTIRELY sure of your birth time, it coudl be out by a couple of degrees, so I allow that additional orb of 'inaccuracy' just in case. The moon, although a quick mover, only moves a half a degree an hour, so if you've even got the right hour, chances are the orb should be kept tighter. Of course I don't think the influence works for 7 degrees 59 minutes, and stops working at 8 degrees 1 minute, but definitely the further away from exactitude you go, the less strong is the influence.

                                  A bit of a tangent, but one way I would 'widen' the orb is in the case of a planet aspecting two others in conjunction. Because a conjunction is literally a 'conjoining' of the two planets, they 'act as one'. So if you had, for example, Saturn at 19 degrees of Virgo, and Moon at 10 degrees Gemini, the orb between the square is 9 degrees, which is a bit out. But if you also had, for example, Mercury at 16 degrees Virgo, then you have a mercury-saturn conjunction. Mercury is square the Moon by 6 degrees which is totally in orb, and mercury itself is conjunct Saturn so I would read it that the Moon is square the mercury-saturn conjunction. Saturn by itself is a bit out, but is 'entwined' with Mercury and mercury is within orb. I hope that makes sense, it's probably irrelevant anyway and I'd still consider the influence of saturn on the aspect to be weaker than mercury. Basically I'm just saying there are times when you can't be too formulaic about it, but generally stick to an 8 degree orb for planets but be a bit more liberal with angles in case the time is not perfect.


                                  About Moon trine Jupiter, with Moon in Gemini particularly and then with this trine included as well, one pattern that emerges is that both gemini and jupiter have links to education, expansion of the mind, learning in general. That's why I'm saying that perhaps, instead, your daughter will grow to see you as somone who is educated, or who, for whatever reason, inspires their own desire to learn and broaden their horizons. Of course she may also think "mommy is a bit of a chatter box" too! :P

                                  Cos it's so easy to read into the chart our own private fears etc, that's why I tend to dissuade the idea of reading your own child's chart. You're just too emotionally attached to the chart to be too objective about it. There's probably a similar argument to be made for synastry and also for romance horaries.

  • Unsu...
     

    Re: moon in fourth house

    Fri, September 3, 2010 - 10:14 AM
    My Libra Moon is conjunct my IC and I've got a Stellium in the fourth house....it's been a long road to learn how to strengthen my defenses. It's a love/hate relationship. Sometimes I wish I had the personality that was able to work in to business world and do what this world deems as "successful", but I don't. But I like that I feel close to the source and it has blessed me with the life that I am able to live.

    "...you've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it. " - The Matrix

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