"Your honor, I don't know"

topic posted Mon, October 26, 2009 - 1:14 PM by  JM
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In Battle Over Gay Marriage, Timing May Be Key
By ADAM LIPTAK
Published: October 26, 2009 NYTimes
WASHINGTON
In a San Francisco courtroom two weeks ago, a prominent lawyer opposed to same-sex marriage made a concession that could mark a turning point in the legal wars over the purpose and meaning of marriage.
The lawyer, Charles J. Cooper, has studied the matter deeply, and his erudite briefs are steeped in history. He cannot have been blindsided by the question Judge Vaughn R. Walker asked him: What would be the harm of permitting gay men and lesbians to marry?

“Your honor, my answer is: I don’t know,” Mr. Cooper said. “I don’t know.”

A couple of hours later, Judge Walker denied Mr. Cooper’s motion to dismiss a lawsuit seeking to establish a constitutional right to same-sex marriage. The concession and the ruling that followed it have transformed a federal lawsuit that had been viewed with suspicion by many gay rights advocates into something with the scent of promise.
The suit, filed in May by Theodore B. Olson and David Boies, made the bold claim that California’s voters violated the federal Constitution last year when they overrode a decision of the state’s Supreme Court allowing same-sex marriages.
The suit was, gay rights advocates said then, the wrong claim in the wrong court in the wrong state at the wrong time. There was wariness about Mr. Olson, a former solicitor general in the Bush administration, and there was frustration about what some viewed as his meddling in a carefully plotted and methodical strategy focused on state-by-state litigation and lobbying.
Those objections are waning. The ship has sailed, said Kenji Yoshino, a law professor at New York University, and gay rights advocates “need to focus on getting it to the right destination.” He added that Judge Walker’s refusal to dismiss the case “was a major victory for Olson and Boies.”
In the courtroom, Mr. Cooper’s arguments seemed to fall of their own weight. The government should be allowed to favor opposite-sex marriages, Mr. Cooper said, in order “to channel naturally procreative sexual activity between men and women into stable, enduring unions.”
Judge Walker appeared puzzled. “The last marriage that I performed,” the judge said, “involved a groom who was 95 and the bride was 83. I did not demand that they prove that they intended to engage in procreative activity. Now, was I missing something?”
Mr. Cooper said no.
“And I might say it was a very happy relationship,” Judge Walker said.
“I rejoice to hear that,” Mr. Cooper responded, returning to his theme that only procreation matters.
Later in the argument, Mr. Olson added his own observation. “My mother was married three years ago,” he said. “And she, at the time, was 87 and married someone who was the same age.”
Still, it is one thing to persuade Judge Walker. The ultimate destination of Mr. Olson’s suit is the Supreme Court, and it is hardly clear that he will be able to convince five justices to see things his way.
Andrew Koppelman, a law professor at Northwestern and the author of “Same Sex, Different States: When Same-Sex Marriages Cross State Lines,” said Mr. Olson will have trouble attracting votes from the current justices. Asked how many justices Mr. Olson could count on, Professor Koppelman said, “I have trouble getting to one.”
It is not obvious that even the more liberal justices will want a piece of this fight. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, for instance, has long said that Roe v. Wade, the 1973 decision that identified a constitutional right to abortion, went too far too fast and may have been counterproductive.
“The court bit off more than it could chew,” Justice Ginsburg said of the case in remarks at Princeton last year.
In a new book called “The Will of the People,” Barry Friedman, a law professor at New York University, argued that the Supreme Court is quite responsive to public opinion in constitutional cases.
When the court found no constitutional problem with a Georgia law that made homosexual sex a crime in Bowers v. Hardwick in 1986, two-thirds of Americans supported such laws. By 2003, when the court overruled Bowers and struck down a similar law in Lawrence v. Texas, public support had dropped to about a third.
This was, Professor Friedman wrote, “a screamingly evident case of the court’s running right along the tracks of public opinion.”
Mr. Olson’s problem, then, is that he may reach the Supreme Court too soon. Public support for same-sex marriage is gaining ground, particularly among younger people. But a majority of Americans remains opposed to the practice.
At the argument, Judge Walker seemed to share this concern. “Aren’t you just getting ahead of yourself by asserting this claim under the federal constitutional provisions?” the judge asked.
Mr. Olson responded by comparing his case to Loving v. Virginia, the 1967 Supreme Court decision that held bans on interracial marriage to be unconstitutional. But 34 states permitted interracial marriage when Loving was decided. Only six states permit same-sex marriages.
The Loving decision, moreover, came almost two decades after the California Supreme Court struck down a state law banning interracial marriage in 1948 in Perez v. Sharp. The California Supreme Court’s same-sex marriage decision is a little more than a year old, and it has been repudiated by the state’s voters.
At the argument in San Francisco, the two sides did agree on one point. “The name ‘marriage’ means a lot,” Mr. Cooper said. “It does have, by virtue of its ancient and venerable heritage, an imprimatur that is special.”
Judge Walker has scheduled a trial in the case in January. He wants to hear about the history and purpose of marriage and the consequences of allowing same-sex couples to marry. And he has hinted that he may allow the proceedings to be televised.
“We should buckle our seatbelts,” Professor Yoshino said. “A comprehensive vetting of the empirical issues by a judicial tribunal is welcome and long overdue. Walker’s trial bids fair to be a trial in an almost scientific sense of the word.”
posted by:
JM
offline JM
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  • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

    Tue, October 27, 2009 - 2:53 PM
    Watch last night's The Colbert Report. State of Washington, lifted an allowance for same-sex civil whatevers (not marriage) because of petitions – or something I didn't really understand. When people demanded to see the signatures on the petition the records were sealed.

    Anyway… Somebody apparently ran a smear campaign in which ALL information was falsified or entirely made up.

    The "country" of Scandinavia (psh) allowed same-sex marriage, and since then there have been more suicides and something like 19 times more people using drugs (or something equally ridiculous).

    What?

    I remember back in the day, Rick Santorum said that gay marriage would lead to children born out of wedlock. How? I mean… does he understand how these things work?
    • JM
      JM
      offline 97

      Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

      Tue, October 27, 2009 - 11:58 PM
      • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

        Wed, October 28, 2009 - 1:25 AM
        "The "country" of Scandinavia (psh) allowed same-sex marriage, and since then there have been more suicides and something like 19 times more people using drugs (or something equally ridiculous). "

        Goodness, where did you find that?
        The country of Scandinavia? This is almost like Palin's Africa... These people are no better than my friend from Dahab who cannot point to his place of birth on a map of Egypt except vaguely (somewhere between the Suez canal and the Nile and the coast of the Mediterranean sea...) but you can't blame him because he never went to school. But these people did and still! They do not teach logical reasoning there either, right? Though they seem to be quite strong in religious bigotry if that can be counted as a subject.
        • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

          Thu, October 29, 2009 - 6:51 PM
          Canela, the Religious Right in this country take pride in not being Taken In by the false Doctrine of education!
          • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

            Thu, October 29, 2009 - 9:07 PM
            So I noticed, GReybat! Intellectuals seem to get a really bad rap in America. Better to say "Hey, I am just an ordinary guy", even if you are president than to be badnamed a "geek"...
            • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

              Tue, November 3, 2009 - 2:00 PM
              Somehow there's some kind of difference between "intellectual" and "geek."

              Geek is the guy you need to pay to fix your computer.
              Intellectual is the douchebag boss from Harvard who earns 4 times your salary but couldn't do half your job.

              That's the connotation.
              • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

                Wed, November 4, 2009 - 2:11 AM
                So, what does that make me? The obnoxious loudmouth who is not cute like this? That's what they thinnk of me in Japan sometimes, I am a girl, after all. Now they rather want a dumb blonde with a poodle, it seems...
                • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

                  Wed, November 4, 2009 - 2:27 AM
                  LMAO,,Maybe an Intellectual Geek Belly Dancer!! Bwaa Haaa!

                  BLONDE?? Oh not ever,my Dear!!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    An intellectual geek bellydancer, that sounds about right. Make that a dancer with other, more obnoxious and even more damnable qualities, yes? Man, am I glad, I don't live in America, and this must be the 4th time I am saying this on tribe this autumn...
                    In Japan they have this thing that Japanese are formerly a farming people, and they still have all the farmers' values they state officially (what they really think is very different from that, of course): "studying too much is unhealthy, all the people in Tokyo University are either insane or monsters, physical strength and team spirit is more important than intellectual striving, thinking too deeply causes trouble and makes life difficult for the people around you if you pester them with your thoughts..."- sound familiar? And once a boyfriend almost left me when I laughed about him because he did not know which language people in Israel speak. This is weird, geeky stuff nobody in Japan needs to know because Israel is far away and Hebrew is such a minor language, and it was pure maliciousness of me to belittle his ignorance, he said, sort of, and was furious. ...
                    Anyway, re blonde, Phae- did you know that they made a statistic in Germany some years ago by some hair dye manufacturer, and found out that most of the men want blondes (coz they look more innocent, or maybe notoriously dumb, I guess) while most of the women dream of dyeing their hair not blonde but flaming red which is the hair colour typically associated with young witches.
                    My hair, however, transformed itself with the help of "kizil kina" yesterday which is Turkish for burgundy henna, straight from Istanbul's bazaar. ; )
    • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

      Wed, October 28, 2009 - 4:41 AM
      ROFLMAO !!!! Rick Santorum... what an ass. No he doesn't have a clue how things work. That's why Casey is not the Senator from Pennsylvania and not Santorum.
      • JM
        JM
        offline 97

        Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

        Wed, November 4, 2009 - 2:41 PM
        As moderator, I hereby pronounce Canella and Duck our tribe's official intellectual and geek mascots (if you could post a photo of yourselves wearing a mortarboard and/or installing software or hardware, we would be most grateful).

        And, on to other issues, why is it, in America, there are not more derogatory terms for idiocy?
        I can really only think of a few:
        Dumb-fuck
        Idiot (but does anyone really use that anymore?)
        Really, I run out after that.
        Does the fair land of Liberty no longer deride stupidity?
        (And... what language DO they speak in Israel? A) Israeli? B) Hindi? C) Jewish? D) Wog-talk? ... brownie points hang in the balance here...)
        • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

          Wed, November 4, 2009 - 8:47 PM
          Happy to be a mascot. I will try to install a key holder clip-on on my shoulders at once. Since I do not know what a mortarboard is and much less how to wear one, I cannot post a pic of that, but I will upload an image into the album here of my new toy which all pink, haha! Which was not my intention, it just turned out that way. My skills are limited to writing research papers on the space saving properties of the French baguette and such, remember, JM? ; )
          synergisticstories.tribe.net/thr...c219
          I submitted my paper on the "neo-alternative subjectivism school of reactionary vegetarian existentialist survival strategies in the 21st century " and you accepted it after I gave you the abstract:

          "Abstract:
          According to the neo-alternative school of vegetarian existentialist survival strategies in the 21st century the self-disinfecting wheat germ biscuit presents a major step in the progress of the sub-fields of air and space technology which moreover can be utilised in a profitable way in pet shops selling squirrel and duck food. The completely revolutionary, innovative biscuit, a byproduct of rocket science, was tested among 230 volunteers and evaluated according the formula of r=x-(2px3q) :y(m2+3mx9p) and turned out to be non-harmfull to any person in a state of average health, with an error margin of 8,5% if tested at a temperature of 75 degrees F. Therefore our findings constitutedinconclusive proof as to the the feasiblity of replacing French baguette with the less space-consuming hypo-allergenic wheat germ biscuit, thus making a raise in the utilisation of dining table space unprecedentally possible. Previous research has on this had been initiated by Groselli, Pinioli and Fynes in 2003 but lacked practical application. With our findings further nutrionally developments will be facilitated within the next 3 years."
          Oooooh, that was fun! I still miss that thread.
          • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

            Wed, November 4, 2009 - 8:51 PM
            And regarding your other question: "what language DO they speak in Israel? A) Israeli? B) Hindi? C) Jewish? D) Wog-talk? ... brownie points hang in the balance here..."
            Some of the Jews I know are fairly fluent in about six languages which usually are something like American English, German, Spanish, French, Hebrew, Russian and Arabic or Yiddish or Danish or all of those, so it is hard to tell.


            • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

              Wed, November 4, 2009 - 8:54 PM
              Those were the guys. My Jewish girlfriend has three native languages: French, Greek and Spanish. English is her first foreign language and I don't know what else she speaks. (her parents were from Paris and Athens and conversed in Spanish at home because that is from where their families emigrated) Just an exemple.
              • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

                Wed, November 4, 2009 - 9:36 PM
                And re synonyms for "idiot", the thesaurus is your friend if one can't figure them out from one'sbexperience of common daily conversation (which may be limited to belittling those obnoxiously clever pain in the necks):

                Main Entry: idiot
                Part of Speech: noun
                Definition: very stupid person
                Synonyms: blockhead, bonehead, cretin, dimwit, dork, dumbbell, dunce, fool, ignoramus, imbecile, jerk, kook, moron, muttonhead, nincompoop, ninny, nitwit, out to lunch, pinhead, simpleton, stupid, tomfool, twit
                Notes: an idiot is a stupid person with a mental age below three years, while a moron is a stupid person with a mental age of between seven to twelve years
                Antonyms: brain
                Main Entry: ass
                Part of Speech: noun
                Definition: stupid person
                Synonyms: blockhead, dolt, donkey, dope, dunce, fool, idiot, imbecile, jackass, jerk*, nitwit, numbskull, simpleton*, twit

                * = informal/non-formal usage

                GRE Antonyms Synonyms
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                Main Entry: bungler
                Part of Speech: noun
                Definition: person who blunders
                Synonyms: addlebrain, blockhead, blunderer, bonehead, botcher, bumbler, butcher, butterfingers, clod, clumsy oaf, dolt, donkey, duffer, dunce, featherbrain, fool, foul-up, fumbler, goof off, goofball, harebrain, idiot, ignoramus, incompetent, klutz, mismanager, muddler, muffer, numskull, screw up, spoiler
                Antonyms: success
                Main Entry: cretin
                Part of Speech: noun
                Definition: obnoxious stupid person
                Synonyms: creep, fool, idiot, imbecile, loser, moron

                The synonyms for "geek", however, come up with some very strange connotations (I am neither an engineer nor a programmer, for exemple, nor a queer nor a sport nor a guru. (?????????????????? what do those have to do with each other?) I'll accept "long hair" and to a certain limit, and "blue stocking", make that "blue socks", as of today. "Canela, too hot for you blue socks, دارسين
                ", how is that?


                Main Entry: geek
                Part of Speech: noun
                Definition: odd person; computer expert
                Synonyms: buffoon, computer specialist, curiosity, dolt, dork, freak, goon, guru, nerd, techie, weirdo
                Notes: a geek is any smart person with an obsessive interest, a nerd is the same but also lacks social grace, and a dweeb is a mega-nerd
                Main Entry: cyberpunk
                Part of Speech: noun
                Definition: computer hacker
                Synonyms: computer nerd, engineer, geek, hacker, programmer

                Ask Geek Tech Support Now
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                Main Entry: egghead
                Part of Speech: noun
                Definition: intellectual
                Synonyms: bluestocking, bookworm, brain*, geek*, genius, highbrow, know-it-all, longhair, rocket scientist, scholar, thinker

                * = informal/non-formal usage
                Main Entry: freak
                Part of Speech: noun
                Definition: something, someone very abnormal
                Synonyms: aberration, abortion, anomaly, chimera, curiosity, geek*, grotesque, malformation, miscreation, misshape, monster, monstrosity, mutant, mutation, oddity, queer, rarity, sport, weirdo*
                Antonyms: normality, ordinary, regular

                * = informal/non-formal usage





        • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

          Thu, November 5, 2009 - 12:40 AM
          "JOE", If we must go there, in the derogatory terms,, please do allow me some apologies ahead of this list,

          F--k wad
          Public Cum receptacle
          Dingle Berry
          Cheney Brainey
          THEIVES
          LIARS
          HYPOCRITES
          MASTERS OF DELUSION
          • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

            Thu, November 5, 2009 - 1:14 AM
            we best never get likkered up together miss phae, tween the two of us, we could sunder a large crack in the earth.

            shitbags
            dillholes
            fuckholes
            fecal flapperies
            asswad (one of my personal favorites, for general, all about town use. :)
            BEADY EYED SHIT WEASELS! (i told everyone 20 years ago that meester bush was a beady eyed shit weasel. And it took the damn world that long to figure it out. phyyt.
            This is why i lauph at sophistry.
            king assgas
            "is everybody getting their yA Ya's?"
            "dementors of desire"
            and an old fasioned "bunghole"! (for good measure)

            anyways, have a nice evening.
            ahem.
            (imported candy)
            • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

              Thu, November 5, 2009 - 2:03 AM
              Now wait a minute. We were talking about synonyms for dumb people. How does all this sexual and fecal stuff get in there, if you don't mind me asking? I am suffering a bit of culture shock here. "Public cum receptacle" as an equivalent for "moron"? Aw, come ooon...
              And someone please enlighten me as to the significance and etymological roots of "dingle berry". I thought, this was something edible. Maybe still is, but... (???)

              Canela, off to the right in a ladylike saunter
              • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

                Thu, November 5, 2009 - 2:28 AM
                'And someone please enlighten me as to the significance and etymological roots of "dingle berry". I thought, this was something edible. Maybe still is, but... (???) ''

                it is not particularly tasty to, uh, eat. oh no.

                you have to be kidding me. i will fucking pee my pants.
                • Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

                  Thu, November 5, 2009 - 2:29 AM
                  i have to pee now
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: "Your honor, I don't know"

                    Thu, November 5, 2009 - 8:08 AM
                    No, I am not kidding you. Don't you know that English is a foreign language for me, no matter what I sound like? Go pee, Flint, and it better be quick. I was under the impression that dingle berries are related to boysenberries and whatever else.
                    My language is so much nicer, we call unnervingly smart people "intelligence beasts" and dumb people "weak heads" or "bottles", e.g".
                    All things sexual are reserved different topics unrelated to cursing.
                    Maybe I should just go back to dictionary.com then...stop teasing me, duh.

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