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So, I'm familiar with the 8-circuit brain model, and the periodic table of elements, which contains 7 families of elements, each family differentiated from the others according to its electron valence, its characteristic behavior and atomic relationship with the other elements.
As a thought-experiment, I wondered if the same be said of the circuits of consciousness, whereby, for example, different states of consciousness (i.e., trance-states, if you will) can be--with enough cultivated meditative attention--categorized according to its particular valence, depending upon which circuit (or family) under which it happens to fall... I know that, at one time, Tim Leary associated the first four circuits with terrestrial concerns, akin to the first four families of elements on the periodic table being "earth bound" or atomically heavier (i.e., falling to Earth) than the planetary atmosphere... and the second four circuits being "astral bound" having concerns with more elevated or advanced stages of consciousness development, akin to the second four families of elements on the periodic table being lighter (i.e., floating towards heaven) than planetary atmosphere...
The query explores whether, within the individual circuits, can distinctions be made such that a periodic table of consciousness can be devised to maintain a sort of zoological categorization of trance-states (entheogenic-induced or otherwise, gaia-/manifest matter-related, or imaginally/astrally concerned, etc.). This may be thought hair-splitting to some, but it was an interesting musing this afternoon, and I thought it worthy of posting for some discussion...
As a thought-experiment, I wondered if the same be said of the circuits of consciousness, whereby, for example, different states of consciousness (i.e., trance-states, if you will) can be--with enough cultivated meditative attention--categorized according to its particular valence, depending upon which circuit (or family) under which it happens to fall... I know that, at one time, Tim Leary associated the first four circuits with terrestrial concerns, akin to the first four families of elements on the periodic table being "earth bound" or atomically heavier (i.e., falling to Earth) than the planetary atmosphere... and the second four circuits being "astral bound" having concerns with more elevated or advanced stages of consciousness development, akin to the second four families of elements on the periodic table being lighter (i.e., floating towards heaven) than planetary atmosphere...
The query explores whether, within the individual circuits, can distinctions be made such that a periodic table of consciousness can be devised to maintain a sort of zoological categorization of trance-states (entheogenic-induced or otherwise, gaia-/manifest matter-related, or imaginally/astrally concerned, etc.). This may be thought hair-splitting to some, but it was an interesting musing this afternoon, and I thought it worthy of posting for some discussion...
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Fri, June 12, 2009 - 11:19 AMi dunno, dude, i just work here...
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Fri, June 12, 2009 - 12:42 PMThe periodic table, like the 8-cicuit brain, constitutes a symbolic map or grid. The symbols in the periodic table of elements refers to a spectrum of atomic structures, whereas the 8-circuit model refers to specific states of consciousness that (with practice, commitment and courage) can be experienced firsthand in and out of the physical body.
I think it's amusing and edifying that Leary's nickname in his Harvard days was "Theory Leary"; he had reams and reams of them. I also think his early attempts to super-impose the 8-circuits and the periodic table reflects such C-3 thought-experiments for achieving more and more theoretical satisfaction. He tried to do the same thing with Tarot and Astrology in his book, "The Game of Life", despite his scientific aversion to these non-scientific models.
I have seen how many people, perhaps like yourself Dan, who claim to be familiar with the 8-circuit model, a familiary that often settles on a conceptual understanding of what all eight circuits mean. With this conceptual familiarity, the mind easily closes down under the "we already know that" assumption.
In light of my own ongoing research, I find this familiarity assumption somewhat bewildering. if the eight circuit brain model is being actively used to explore the real life experiences it represents, in and out of the body, then the very definitions for those circuits invariably must undergo adjustments and change to reflect the influx of new information.
When the focus shifts from direct experience to theoretical comparisons of the 8CB with other systems, as many theoreticians are apt to pursue, the findings become academic at best and macadamia nuts at worst. -
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Fri, June 12, 2009 - 1:39 PM"In light of my own ongoing research, I find this familiarity assumption somewhat bewildering. if the eight circuit brain model is being actively used to explore the real life experiences it represents, in and out of the body, then the very definitions for those circuits invariably must undergo adjustments and change to reflect the influx of new information."
as you are fond of stating, insert here the *roaring sound of thunderous applause!* . .
i also have continually found the moments of this sort of realization, in ritual experiences and in the shifting tides of everyday life, a most illuminating and humbling experience; as the clattering sound of the dissolution of all of my maps, metaphors, symbols and definitions - about the 8cb and about life itself - play a beautiful soundtrack to the discovery and embodiment of new territories of physical possibility and newer, looser and more flexible definitions are temporarily reinstated - allowing a freer engagement with the dynamic world of the real.. life is indeed a mystery to be lived and not a problem to be figured out.. huzzah !
*the roaring sound of thunderous applause!*
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Fri, June 12, 2009 - 3:11 PMcareful with that thunderous self-applause, rob; that's one of the reasons why and how the sixties revolution crashed and burned. -
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Fri, June 12, 2009 - 3:54 PMsherpa> When the focus shifts from direct experience to theoretical comparisons of the 8CB with other systems, as many theoreticians are apt to pursue, the findings become academic at best and macadamia nuts at worst.
this isn't how I understood dan's query; -
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Fri, June 12, 2009 - 7:52 PMquack ~ how did you understand it ? maybe i missed something. -
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 7:35 AM> how did you understand it ?
Stepping back a bit, my understanding of this 8CB tribe, in comparison to the AT tribe, is that it allows more slack (sic) for theoretical discussion vs. the "direct experience is the boss of it all" nature of the AT tribe.
That said, I didn't get that Dan wanted to compare and correlate the periodic table to the 8CB, so much as employ the 8CB in a style similar to the periodic table such that there are sub-divisions within each circuit that align specific states of consciousness into a spectrum within a specific circuit. ( I acknowledge that the best way to begin such an undertaking would be through the direct experience of these states, but let's set that aside for the moment)
So, one might dip into one of the transpersonal psychology cartographers such as Grof (pick a book), Metzner (The Unfolding Self), or Cortright (Psychotherapy and Spirit), for example, and look to see where specific states of consciousness and experience that they describe fit in the 8CB model and if there is any sort of pattern within a specific circuit that indicates a depth or breadth or spectrum or some such.
Dan acknowledged this a musing or thought experience that might be hair splitting... and perhaps given my own tendency to muse on such things, I'm feeling a little defensive of the query which I find odd as I really have no interest in exploring the actual query itself, but hey, that's just me.
One thing I have noticed with a few of my mentors and teachers over the years is that as they age and pass their prime, they often distill their core teachings into a few key stories and/or nuggets of wisdom that get repeated over and over, ad naseum. I hope we have not reached the stage where the crotchety old ritualist logs on to tribe and harps on direct experience over theory every time he posts. :) -
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 10:45 AM<<One thing I have noticed with a few of my mentors and teachers over the years is that as they age and pass their prime, they often distill their core teachings into a few key stories and/or nuggets of wisdom that get repeated over and over, ad naseum. I hope we have not reached the stage where the crotchety old ritualist logs on to tribe and harps on direct experience over theory every time he posts. :)>>
It's too late for you and for me. this crotchety old ritualist will be harping on direct experience until his last breath. -
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sun, June 14, 2009 - 12:59 PMI forgot about your recent post about Timmy's mother (who does have a great set of tits). So maybe there's hope for you yet. Or maybe that was simply another post about direct experience...
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 12:02 PM<<Stepping back a bit, my understanding of this 8CB tribe, in comparison to the AT tribe, is that it allows more slack (sic) for theoretical discussion vs. the "direct experience is the boss of it all" nature of the AT tribe. >>
You're right, quack. It seems my Direct Experience dogma may have been unnecesaraily discouraging to those with a more Overly Educated dogma and for that, I apologize and return to the real world. -
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sun, June 14, 2009 - 6:59 AMhahahhahhaahahha
Direct Experience dogma is Thee Mega-Awesomeness, eye guess ridiculous ectomorphs like myself and some others here just get off on Conscious Conceptual Play....
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sun, June 14, 2009 - 1:10 PMMy Overly Educated dogma just wants a little room to play every now and again. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sun, June 14, 2009 - 1:13 PM<<My Overly Educated dogma just wants a little room to play every now and again.>>
Isn't that what Buddhism is for ?
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 2:46 AMDan, to my eye & ear seemed to be probing the possibility of developing (individually/collectively) models of specific sub-"states/spaces" within the over-arching experiential bandwidths of the circuits themselves...
Experientially, we have found it useful on occasion to anchor specific states-o-consciousness/experiential spaces etc to specific symbolic forms (physical-movements, symbols/sigils, etc etc), for use in re/accessing said states/spaces...
Within the context of extended group work, we would imagine it could well be rather useful, to develop internally-consistent language/models for charting the territory being explored...
~R -
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 3:02 AMAlthough this may have value, the question remains as to how redundant it makes one if they invest value in making such categorizations.
It seems that a map may have to be as loose as possible in order for the dynamic human to utilize it more flexibly in the arena of active life.
So would you mean then that each circuit in the 8cb would be assigned a certain number of periodic elements that would in turn symbolise inner states, experiences and life values and thus help one to understand the spectrum of experiences and states and life-values that each circuit may involve?
I still find this stifling - even the notion of correlating areas of human experience to one particular circuit alone I find problematic, because by making such a rigid statement one makes redundant the possibility that all areas of intelligence are always interracting and working together simultaneously.
Perhaps the sort of state-evocations with specific elemental symbols could be useful in group work - but only after each member participating has learnt to define the symbol on their own terms and thus have a safer discernment between the map and the territory, the menu and the meal.. -
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 3:03 AMdefine the state on their own terms, i should say...
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 4:23 AMAt this point we tend to assume that most working with said models... have experienced the emergence of so-called "second attention", loosened their "semantic imprints" and entered into a more creative and playful experience of conceptual-modeling process... maybe we assume too much...
The notion that the map is not the territory, rhetoric aside, is a relevant insight, but in no way does it make conceptual-modeling any less relevant a process <a process that is necessarily integrated into the larger supra-self structure>
Once understood experientially the aforementioned ever-so-quaint piece of rhetoric allows greater fluency and creativity, which is in-turn expressed in greater artistry in ones maps, models, metaphors etc...
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 5:42 AMrob, fear not the conceptual landscapes my friend, its important for people in a culture bamboozled by abstraction and ignorant of sensation to awaken to their own direct experience as teacher, lover, guide etc., but once one's intimacy with the naked flow of life/impermanence enters an ongoing deepening/growth then conceptual-symbolic play becomes a freer and juicier interface.
sure the processes of categorisation and abstract definition can be seductive, and any kind of anal uber-map/grandunifiedtheory attempts are often the breeding ground of ignorance (in my experience thus far).
But I find it interesting how certain ideas and beliefs can open up experiential possibilities... in my clumsy post about buddhism below i bring up that example as an illustration of this.
imagine only being exposed to eastern teachers like osho and krishnamurti - massively influential and wonderful and important as their work may be - and not to the cheerleaders of Dream Yoga, Clear Light Yoga, deep Jhana/Concentration exploration, and sophisticated Insight investigation to name a few... one could easily be hypnotised into buying into Dharma-Bumism and Be Here Now, the power of now, chop-wood zen etc. as the be all and end all of buddhist science... yet... exposure to the more sophisticated maps of consciousness (maps of jhana states, insight stages etc), opens up the possibility for intense, neverending exploration of the very nature of 'Direct Experience' in a well-developed medium.
I'm not preaching buddhist meditation etc but this illustrates the potential wonders of reporting and developing elegant maps of experience. Maybe an example more relevant to tribe members would be 'go read angel tech' - boom those words in that book open up the possibility of new vistas of conceptual and experiential play.
(P.S. derailing conceptually-oriented discussion (on an internet forum!) with Robert Anton Wilson quotes and (realist) anti-semantic rhetoric doesn't seem to be terribly productive... neither does attacking timothy leary for simply giving a few conceptual suggestions (which probably stem from his own direct experience) - sure he's released a few crappy wanky lightweight philosophy books - but treatises such as 'the game of life' are as experientially grounded and give as much food for active real-time exploration as the mighty 'angel tech' and 'prometheus rising') -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 12:04 PMI think the statements put forward here proposing the redundancy of an over-emphasis on maps and systems are not harkering on and regurgitating the same Korsybskian 'rhetoric' as much as you are suggesting here, nor do i find them 'anti-semantic'. Leary's writings i believe are far more conceptually removed from the real nitty-gritty of the force of life as you are proposing and, as i'm sure we all know, that was Alli's purpose behind writing angel tech. One only needs to entertain an intelligent critique of his character and the sum total of his life-work to see that although his real message to the world was the authority of direct experience, he was a theoretician at best, paving the way conceptually and academically for such works as angel tech to arise in the future, and of course there is not one person here who would not give him the credit he rightly deserves for doing so.
Not feeling the need to go into any more 'RAW rhetoric' as i'm sure those here have all heard it before - but it remains the clearest blockade to true responsibility if one invests in abstraction too heavily as an evocation agent to unlock these experiential possibilities you speak of.
Although personally i can credit many systems, theories and advaita-esque inquiries to the opening up and enlightening of my mind, i can also credit my investment in them for sending me deep into my fantasy, in that gurdjieffian sense, far more than was neccessary - and admittedly that continues but in a far lesser form (at least i'd like to think) to this day. I tend to believe that once one directly engages with the sort of connectivity symbolised by 7th circuit in the arena of everyday life, it is only then the task of fusing that hideous western theoretical abstractedness with the raw, animalistic nature of one's instinct, so that one's being can become organic and sensitised enough to be more in tune with whats really going around, and have the creativity to forge greater futures. I tend to see things like posture, physical committment, correct breathing and relaxation as the solution to the problems of C3, so that those faculties are dis-identified with and syncronised to the dreaming currents and natural cycles of the world at large. But that is where i am at and relevant to me.
Ultimately what is most relevant is that everything depends on individual body type, character, disposition, alchemy and one's internal configurations and networking. To use apt metaphors, some people, emotional adepts but intellectual imbiciles, might do well to study maps and systems to hone their formatory abilities, others would be derailed further from their innate sense of void-intimacy. Some, intellectual geniuses but emotional fools, might likewise do well to have more fluid modes of reasoning enlighten them to the genius of simplicity so that they could feel their emotions and body deeper, whilst others might just need methods of deep meditation to cut through it all completely.
This all comes in timing for my upcoming saturn transit of my natal mercury - hopefully allowing me to have a firmer understanding and embodiment of what ideas I do need for relevant communication and active living and what ideas I am simply wasting my time with. -
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 8:54 PMIt seems, on observation, that attempts by users of this forum to try and prompt suggestions & feedback, regarding syncretic-modeling involving the 8-circuit model (whether it be mapping the 8-circuit model onto the zodiac, or abstracting specific states/spaces within the bandwidth) are often chided, & met with some type of anti-"conceptual" scorn... which as Mr IlithMar is suggesting isn't very productive...
Whilst over-emphasis of conceptual-process.... can be somewhat obscuring of embodied-presence.... it can be disruptive to the enquiry/exploration being prompted in a thread-topic to immediately de-emphasize what the author is trying to articulate...
Personally, we tend to enjoy, creating maps/models that are as fluent/flexible/open-ended/and minimal as possible... but this may well be a matter of taste... Some it seems enjoy the hyper-conceptual framework & formalized ritual of the Qabbalah, others find personal relevance in the methodology of Armenian rug-salesmen with rather exquisite moustaches, or the mutterings of mad-monks with a propensity for sitting still for excruciatingly long periods of time... we are not to judge.... but instead sample freely, employing what we find personally & immediately relevant, storing the rest to grok fully at a late date...
Regarding Mr Timothy Leary, it is worth noting we think, that most his theory (one assumes) stems from direct experience rather than just mere fireside chin-stroking... of the rather exotic states of consciousness generated by a life-long career of high-dose psychedelic exploration... in our experience the man articulated rather unique insights, which we have re-contexualized and applied to great success...
Furthermore...
It seems in our experience that symbol-systems open up unique states of consciousness, one working with ritual processes derived from the "western" alchemical tradition will experience results differing from another working with the Runes for example...
Syncretism, is on our experience a relevant process, certain symbol-systems & associated practices seem to complement & extend even socially & historically divergent traditions markedly well... whilst we have not found much use for grand-unifying-theories-of-everything... we respect the mad bastards (such as ole Einstein) that go off in search of em... remember it's the journey not the destination that counts...
~R
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 10:31 PMhaha it wasn't till after i posted that i realised my post may have come across as a little aggressive... i guess my personal taste in caustic humour maybe doesn't translate so well through word-space. Apologies for that.
I would agree with you about Leary, but when i recently read game of life i found it kind of shocking that falcon published info-psyc and not game of life... game of life may have been full of even more possibly somewhat satirical absurd and assumptive theory than info-psyc but i found it preposterously more imaginally evocative and hillariously inspiring... and it was as practical-exercise ridden as prometheus rising and angel tech, but leri-style. i guess his practical 'nitty-gritty' advice outside that book is basically 'take acid intelligently'.
i grew up in a circuit-3 box, and thanks to dedicated bodywork and meditation, entheogenic inspiration, good friends and some fine books the 'walls' burst open... i feel where you're coming from with your distaste towards 'hideous western abstraction', a couple of years at university left me with the same frustration... that being said whilst most of my 'spiritual exploration' has been non-conceptual, i can't help notice along the way the *potential* power and usefulness of developing maps and models that are living, precisely-clear, and evocatively vague... and also the neverending potential for conceptual growth/death (as with emotional, physical and social)... i look at that whole sphere as a naive scientist... my relationship with ideas is constantly changing - whereas once (and still today to a lesser extent) they led me through tunnels of delusion and swamps of useless fantasy/self-blabla (especially when entangled with emotions)... one can't help but notice that intelligent engagement with them opens up vast realms of fun and potentiality etc etc. i'm all for learning to love and play and squirm on the conceptual dancefloor in new and exciting and explorative ways. like srsly - what the goddamn doogle is with hyper-fast ocean of concepts goin on in thurr? what can REALLY be done with them? as exciting a mystery as any...
also, consider that the classic idea of a concept being just a blind word-labyrinths is just one piece of the pie. as Richard points out - if you investigate some of the myriad traditions of genuine ritual magick, you'll find a completely different way of navigating conceptuality from say, a housewife ruminating about her childhood to a therapist or some academic having heartattack over incorrect citations. No doubt you've read angeltech - in the 6th circuit antero presents a map of the energy body. I don't dispute the possibility and perception that the body has innnate energy centers - but there are so many different maps of the energy body ranging from 3 to 24 chakras from all over the world. my exploration of such reveals that intense vivid direct experience of the chakras CHANGES depending on the chakra map/model, as does the psycho-spiritual effects of such. im not saying that they are dependent on concepts - merely that concepts are a powerful and innate part of the energybody/brains processing. neuropsychology is littered with other examples to which this woudl apply (e.g. sensory perception).
for me being detached, purely pragmatic, and like a promiscuous cuckoo with the various systems i encounter (but don't seek out or get hooked on) seems to be the sanest most wholesome most expansive approach to such things...
clearly everyone's psycho-spiritual 'needs'/useful directions are subjective, as you point out, and its of infinite value for people to permit committed contact, sensitive communion & confident synchronisation with their 'unconscious & collective unconscious' to suss such things out and flow with life... as you can guess i also enjoy the 'technology of consciousness' standpoint - like that of a deep sea diver or an astronomer (the tao is that from which one cannot depart)... don't just settle into your Being and do what's needed, a kind of break the rules 'what happens when you do more' attitude. don't know if that makes much sense, perhaps my 'poetic'-esque ramblings of two sides of the same coin are too abstracted but but but
i gotta go
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 3:16 AMI quite like the maps of specific states and sub-states charted by various hardcore-devoted/committed buddhist practitioners... as a matter of fact stumbling upon these maps alerted me to how diluted and mild the majority of western translations of buddhism are... i guess part of being entangled with the self-help and self-actualisation movements of psychology (im not suggesting these dont ahve their place and purpose... but clearly there's a difference between meditating for 30 mins a day to 'get through your stuff' and meditating 10 hours a day as a means of 'deep state' exploration). check out alan wallace's 'the attention revolution' and daniel ingrams 'an unusually harcore dharma book'
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 1:15 AMhaha, too right ! originally meant to applause the affirmations of another, it quickly turned to self-praise,,, eeek ! -
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Re: Periodic Table of Consciousness
Sat, June 13, 2009 - 7:41 AMstop sucking up to him. that's my job.
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