It all depends on who you fight really! I have seen everything from Faire/SCA folk who "thought" they knew what they were doing with a Shinai to those who actually did some intensive study and training and "do" know what they are doing.

Too many times have I see folks who "trained themeselves" by watching Conan or some other sword swinging action figure too many times and did the "figure it out for yourself" method or "inventing" moves that are based on what "makes the most sense" to them. Rarely does this type of person have any formal Martial arts training (Asian/Western or otherwise) to back up what they call martial knowledge or skill. I refer to this as Ren-Faire Do

On the other hand, I have met several people who have put a great deal of study into Western Martial Arts as well as a variety of Asian, Pacific Islander, Middle Eastern and European "non-sword using" combative techniques suchas Escrima, Kali, Arnis, Kuntaw, Silat and from Ireland, the fine art of Bata (Irish stick fighting).

It does not much matter if it's SCA or Faire people, you get both types in both groups and every level in between. The only way to find out if they are any good is to challenge them using your skill set against theirs and see who comes out on top. If you get your ass kicked, then find out how this person was trained and perhaps you can gain knowledge.

Mind you now though...there are quite a few people fluent in Ren-Faire Do who swing a mean stick and are fairly quick "at what they know" so this makes them effective against someone who has less "experience" they they do (note: I did not say training or knowledge). Myself for example, I have been studying Kali for nearly 8 months but I am in no way ready to engage my skills in sparring or real combat at this time however, I can stand my ground fairly well with a shinai and have very little formal sword training.

Hey Celsius...and all FMA bretheren on this forum.

Here's my take on your question and also to refute/coroborate some of the other postings on this thread.

I'm an instructor of Inayan Eskrima and have been a practitioner for the past 13 years. For the first 10 I was also in the SCA of which the last 5 I was a heavy fighter (heavy weapons fighter = Full body armor and baseball-bat sized rattan weapons).

As far as training does with SCA people, very few actually have a set training regime or system. There is a basic fighting stance and solution for sword and shield that most new fighters will either be taught or learn by watching, but there is also a great deal of "good luck" attitude to the bewbie combatant. If a prospective fighter shows aptitude however, he'she will be asked to join a fighting household and will receive "advanced training" from somone wearing either a red or a white belt (a squire or a knight). Some of these "knights" will either have some form of martial training, will have developed their own style from watching others, or be a natural at this game.

There is no "fighters school" or training curriculum other than what is in the "Known World Handbook" (a general handbook that gives the new SCA-er a glossy overview and how-to instruction on the basics of the SCA. A 2-3 page section is dedicated to basic armor and weapons making, and another 1-2 pages on sword and shield tactics). Most SCA fighters learn by watching others and picking up "tricks", or are fodder.

To the credit of the SCA, there is a safety and competance process in place called "Authorizing" to insure the combatant is safe on the field and understands the rules of the game. Authorizing is done in front of a Heavy Combat Marshall, at least one Marshall in Training, and a "Peer" of the society (usually a knight, prince, king, duke, or senior fighter). Authorizing is style specific, so each style you wish to use in an organized gathering requires that you have passed the test and have proof on your "Fighters Authorization Card" (yes...like a drivers license). If you don't have the style you want to use on your card...you don't get to use that style.

Now that I've given you this little overview on SCA heavy fighting, to your question.

I have heard from a number of SCA fighters that "That FMA crap doesn't work against SCA Fighting", and said with a snooty tone. In reality, with minor changes to technique and understanding the rules of the game, FMA is rather formidable against SCA fighting. A number of things that work in favor of the FMA practitioner is the experience of having somone swinging a stick at them repeatedly. This is a huge hurdle for a great many SCA fighters to overcome. Another is having follow-up techniques where a great many SCA'ers will have none (one-shot wonders or simple combinations). Third, FMA people will "blade the body", or move obliquely rather than in a linear "fencing" style. Fourth, FMA people see many more styles to play with, deal with, and defend against, where the SCA'er will build a seapon and beat a tree or "Pell" in their backyard for practice before authorizing.

FMA pratitioners also have a number of techniques that SCA people do not. Some of these are: disarms, joint-locks, grapples, flip-hits, better footwork, oblique (or blading) movements, follow-up counters, parrys, redirections, smothers, covering, etc. Most of the SCA style of fighting is devoid of these techniques.

The strongest style of fighting in the SCA is "Sword and Shield". Everybody who gets into this game starts with this style and must authorize in this before looking into other styles for authorization. It's easy to become semi-competant in this style because you have the luxury of hiding behind a shield. Every heavy fighter must learn it, and be competant in it's "use". Some FMA styles do not use a shield in their practice, so this becomes new knowledge and a strange experience. It is easily overcome however.

The weakest style for the SCA is called "Florentine", or 2-stick. This style is the weakest because no practitioner in the SCA who hasnot had FMA training will favor one hand over the other. One hand blocks while the other hand strikes. This style is probebly the easiest for an FMAer to dominate the field with because of the implied ambadexterity that the others won't have.

The biggest weakness for FMA against SCA is the armor. FMA practitioners practice without the use of armor that is heavy and movement restrictive. SCA people will spend all their practice time in gear that weighs between 50lbs and 120lbs total added weight (helmets are incredibly heavy and restrict head movement). This creates a new issue for the FMAer to overcome...the weight and restrictions of the protective equipment. Several techniques become nearly impossible to perform such as overhead redondo, ducking your head, turning your head, bending over, evasion, and twirls. Alot will depend on the armor worn. Lighter armor means greater mobility and less protection, where heavier armor less mobility and more protection.

My own personal experience was I have only done FMA as my training. My authorizations (all 8 of them) were to build the weapons and to authorize. Most SCA fighters must work with somone who has some experience with these styles to "train" them in how to use them. There is also a great deal or "hitting the pell" which is mind-numbingly boreing work because the pell can't hit you back. A competant FMA practitioner can accumulate any and all authorizations if he/she chooses by applying the rules of this game to the training of the FMA...like I did.

Again, to the credit of the SCA there are some techniques and knowledge that I have taken away from this game that has proves invaluable. There are also experiences that you cannot get anywhere else (i.e. mass melee battles, multiple attackers, group tactics, wars (see Pennsic War)). I have also taken from my SCA experiences armoring techniques/requirements and weapons balancing. These have become invaluable when teaching my students and keeping them safe.

Again to the question at hand: How does FMA stand up to SCA? FMA will stand up to SCA very well to dominating the fight, and fighting field. This can be a fun and enjoyable experience, and be worth the time to invest in the armor, hours, and travel.

Good luck in your pursuit of knowledge!

Mabuhay ang FMA

I’m of the opinion it is not possible to truly test FMA fighter’s martial skills against that of SCA fighters unless your talking about having a real duel since the sparring rules between that of the two groups are not compatible.

If fact in my opinion it is not even possible to get a ruff idea as to which persons combative skills are more effective than the other by sparring with SCA rules since their rule set is intentionally designed to favor people who fight with shields over other weapon combinations.

Another big problem with the SCA “rules of the list” is that they are not written out in such a way as to make it clear as to what is an allowed action and what is not. Specifically they over stretch the definition of grappling and also confuse the concept of a blow with that of a push and in doing so create double standards.

Furthermore one can’t read an officially sanctioned list of reasons that explain why certain actions are against the rules or why other actions of a similar type are allowed. People involved with SCA fighting will make statement to try and explain the reasons behind their rules but when I looked into what they were claiming I could find nothing to officially back their statements that had been written down.

The most annoying thing about the SCA is that they refuse to define what it is that they are trying to do.

The intended explanations, in my opinion, that the SCA as an organization provides on their official web site in regards to what they are and what they are trying to do has been intentionally crafted so as to avoid making informative statements.

Chris most of what you say seems to be true however I don’t agree that SCA armor needs to weigh at least 50 pounds in order to pass martial inspections if that is what you are tyring to say. My own armor didn’t weigh that much and yet I still passed nearly all of my armor inspections at fighting events. The weight of ones armor might depend a lot on the size of the person however since a larger suit of armor will weigh more.

I also don’t agree Chris that the “sword and shield “ style is the strongest within the SCA.
In fact the majority of SCA “sword and shield “ fighters could be easily defeated in a real dual or war simply by making a chop below their knees. In fact in a real fight a shield could be broken or smashed apart by an axe blow or the arm could still be broken from a square hit on the flat of the shield and the SCA rules do nothing to simulate this.

I don’t agree that a Florentine style fighter within the SCA in general is going to be weak or flawed do to a lack of FMA training if that is what you are trying to say however it is true that there aren’t enough good Florentine fighters simply because the flawed rules seem to discourage an interest in the style. In other word if one fights with the motivation of only “winning tournaments” then they will probable not be too good at Florentine style fighting.

If the SCA sparring rules were intended to be nothing more than a “fantasy game” with an emphasis on safety as many of their fighters insist then there would be no logical reason for example to discount things like light blows or pushing attacks from spears.

There would also be no logical reason to require the practice weapons to be of the same or similar weight to that of the metal weapon being simulated.
Because of these types of inconsistencies in my opinion the argument that is often made that attempts to discount criticisms of the flaws in the SCA “heavy weapons fighting” rules based on the argument that what they are trying to do is nothing more than a “fantasy game” is not valid.
To put it simply in a “fantasy game” people don’t get hit by three or four pound clubs swung at full speed and force.

My main point here is that the SCA should fix their flawed rules and stop discounting valid and constructive criticisms. Also if they are going to complain that someone isn’t following their rules then there should be something written down that officially says so.