so this morning i'm driving to work, no big deals going on , and this song-10 shots of jose quarvo- comes on the radio. i'm thinking " god i hated that shit when i was drinking " so then the song is over and all of a sudden my heads says " wow wouldn't it be fun to go to a bar and do a bunch of shots and pass out this weekend!" WTF where did that come from?!
20 yrs and how ever many months later my head comes at me with this shit out of the blue. this disease is cunning baffeling and powerful for sure. it re minded me of that part in the book about when he thought if i have a shot with my milk it won't hurt me. HA
part of what i thought was interesting about this morning was that my disease dind't even try and be subtel about it this time. flat out get drunk and pass out, thats a good idea! i have been extreamly lucky that the obsession to drink was removed quiet quickly when i got sober, so i haven't had to deal with this a whole lot, but my head has told me stupid shit over the years, but i don;t think it was ever so blatant as this time. it wasn't even trying to be sly about it, just very blatant.
so tell me your ESH on this topic guys..........
20 yrs and how ever many months later my head comes at me with this shit out of the blue. this disease is cunning baffeling and powerful for sure. it re minded me of that part in the book about when he thought if i have a shot with my milk it won't hurt me. HA
part of what i thought was interesting about this morning was that my disease dind't even try and be subtel about it this time. flat out get drunk and pass out, thats a good idea! i have been extreamly lucky that the obsession to drink was removed quiet quickly when i got sober, so i haven't had to deal with this a whole lot, but my head has told me stupid shit over the years, but i don;t think it was ever so blatant as this time. it wasn't even trying to be sly about it, just very blatant.
so tell me your ESH on this topic guys..........
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SF Bay Area
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Unsu...
Re: WTF
Fri, March 17, 2006 - 9:42 AMRemember that we deal with alcohol, cunning, baffling, powerful!
~Clearly the most important word in this sentence is "remember"
Shannon, every time the drink thought enters my mind it is a thought of drinking to access.
Then there are times that I think I must not be alcoholic because I have never had the....
The idea that somehow, someday he
will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of
every abnormal drinker.
..really, controling sounds like no fun at all.
Maybe I think too much, but I know one thing for sure, I am not responsible for the first thought.
I am responsible for entertaining them. -
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Unsu...
Re: WTF
Tue, November 28, 2006 - 9:22 PMwell it happened. i finally had the idea that one would be good. i cant believe it. i must be as alcoholic as all them others in AA that claimed to have had the same idea.
my next thought was.......... one would be a good start.
woohoo, i heard that one in a meeting too. -
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Re: WTF
Wed, November 29, 2006 - 2:26 PMThere are days when it seems the mind is out to get me.
Yep, been there too, 'specially around the holidays...But I have to face the real fact that "one" to me is a bottle, not a drink.
Strange that these things still pop up from outta nowhere. Damn alkie brain :)
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Re: WTF
Fri, March 17, 2006 - 10:50 AMHAHAHA Well first of all thats what you get for lisining to C/W in the morning :)
I get that shit all the time,,, It always starts out with "Hey... I got a good idea"
No matter how long I'm here I will always be an alcoholic. Cunning Baffeling and Powerful, sums it up perfectly. At this point I try to embrace "it" what ever "it" is, and move on to the next right thing. If I encounter more disturbance .. I do what your doing now.. Pick up the simple kit of tools ( that I have left out all over the place) and reach out. generally with a WTF.
If it was nothing more than random thought #5467 pay it no mind. Other wise .. you know what to do.
Nuttin but love for ya Shannon
J. -
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Re: WTF
Fri, March 17, 2006 - 10:56 AMi told my head to shut the f**k up and started laughing out loud at my self. i thought at least come at me with booze i liked, i hated takillya!
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Re: WTF
Thu, November 30, 2006 - 8:11 PMShannon,
I can identify with it. My name for this thought process is KF*CK. It still blasts in my head. My best response to goes like this, "Wow. Thank you for sharing. Now you can sit down."
I have to embrace these thought as indicator on my life's dashboards, some what a kin to my spiritual tanks needs to be filled up. Even at 20yrs and change the voice is still there. It a reminded how I am different from non-alcoholics. My don't think I need to get another bee sting to find out if I am allergic to them, but KF*CK still wants me to give it another roll. I am still a Druggy Drunk.
Last night, my little daughter cried all night, thus I pulled an all nighter with a scream/crying 1 year old. This morning, the thought of a "bong Load" crossed my mind. Wow, that would really mess up my life if I took action on that thought.
Any way, I babble
Thanks for sharing,
Dan
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Unsu...
Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 2:05 PMShannon, there is a good chance you get these strong thoughts after 20 years because you have spent no time attempting to normalize and resolve your relationship with drinking. Over 20 years you have allowed alcohol to loom over you like a boogeyman who will someday get you unless you are on constant guard. And so it shall be, if you insist.
Had you given yourself a chance at re-learning your drinking habits, and over time re-allocating alcohol to a place of lesser importance in your reality, there is a really good chance you'd be able to have an occasional drink now, with great enjoyment and with no ill effects.
What you have been doing in AA for the last 20 years is to constantly reaffirm for yourself that drinking vs. not drinking is the same as living versus dying, and that isn't smart.
If you can free yourself from this mindset, it is highly likely you will be able to enjoy an occasional drink or two with ease and pleasure. There is absolutely NO reason to start downing tequila now that you're an adult.
How old were you when you were (self) diagnosed with alcoholism? 20 or so? Younger, even? Just guessing. Is it not possible that you have grown a bit since then? Are you really doomed to repeat the same behaviors you engaged in back then? I doubt it.
I think you owe it to yourself to give responsible drinking a try. If you can't do it because of mental blocks against it and your long held self-fulfilling prophecy of certain doom if you do, well, AA will always be there in the morning.
If it works, you need no longer be concerned with the demon voice in your head, and alcohol will no longer seem so cunning, baffling and powerful.
Don't let loyalty to a group and a silly piece of metal keep you from discovering what you can and can't do.
Andy
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 2:37 PM"I think you owe it to yourself to give responsible drinking a try."
and if you're successful, my hat's off to you.
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 2:58 PMoh my god, why didn't i ever think of that. thank you so much inge for your words of encouragment and insight. i don't know why more people don't just tell the alcoholic to drink. ingenious! -
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Unsu...
Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 5:56 PMNobody's telling you to do or not do anything, that would be preposterous - but it seems to me you're a grown woman who ought to be able to resolve this issue for yourself without having to battle "demons" in your head. Seems like a real nuisance to me. All I 'm saying is the reason you may not be able to handle a drink might simply be because you keep telling yourself exactly that. But my God, don't set yourself up for failure just to prove a point or anything. You're obviously in charge here, Jeeez... -
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Unsu...
Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 6:04 PMJust to clarify: You are probably right to keep abstaining, don't get me wrong. I just can't help but wonder if it hadn't been for 20 years of AA-style sobriety that might not be the case.
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 6:31 PMI'd like to tell you about my wife that after 13 years in AA she decided to go another route. She died in just over a year from drinking. Sure she tried to come back but the disease had her in its grips. She lost her home, she lost her husband, she lost her license, she was in debt to her teeth, 2 DUI's, and pushed all her AA friends away. She was found a week after she died. Alone!
Take your opinion to a tribe that thinks drinking is better than sobriety. If someone came here seeking help for there drinking problem, it is their business. Helping them is our business.
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Unsu...
Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 6:50 PMThat is a tragedy and I am really sorry. It would be completely inappropriate for me to try to comment on a specific personal tragedy like that, of which i know neither the facts nor the persons involved.
It stands to reason, however, that some people come to identify as something they don't need to be, and that contributes to their ultimate downfall.
What if her AA friends had tried to help her and stand by her on her new route, unjudgementally? I think AA'ers have a general tendency to shun those who give moderation another try; almost egg them on to fail so that they'll be "forced" back to the fold. think it's tragic that friendships live or die based on one's various approaches to drinking, but that IS partly what your story suggests. To me, anyway.
I'm really sorry about your loss, and I'm NOT being light or flippant about that.
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 7:40 PMher friends didn't abandon her, she abandond them so she could live in the bottle. she wouldn't let anyone help her.
i don't know where you got this idea that when people drink AA bails on them, but that just hasn't been my experiance.
why is it that you feel the need to convince us that drinking is ok. i you like to drink, go to it, have a blast. i know i cant control and enjoy my drinking, so i don't. but for some reason that isn't good enough for you. whats up with that? -
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 8:11 PM"It would be completely inappropriate for me to try to comment on a specific personal tragedy like that, of which i know neither the facts nor the persons involved."
"What if her AA friends had tried to help her and stand by her on her new route, unjudgementally? "
I may be just a drunk but isn't that what you just did? How dare you?
This may be a futile attempt because I honestly don't believe this guy is here for anything but disturbing the peace, however, perhaps a reprint of the jaywalking story? If he comes back with "we could drink normally if we tried", I wash my hands of him and will leave quietly.
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Unsu...
Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 8:14 PMWho knows, maybe she wouldn't let anyone help her because she knew the help would consist of a lot of pressure to re-commit to AA? Maybe she needed deeper friendship than that? I don't know the situation, and I really shouldn't speculate.
I've heard it said other places that people have often felt that the friendships they forge in AA turn out to be false if situations change and one changes course about one's drinking, changes one's mind about being an alcoholic, for instance. Probably not true in all cases, but I know that I would be terribly disappointed and heartsick if I someone I considered a good, true friend wrote me off if I decided to reassess my alcoholism and renounce AA's applicability in my life. But this has happened a lot in AA and will continue to happen, I'm sure. It happened very harshly to a very good friend of mine.
Shannon, I apologize if you feel that I am trying to convince anybody (you) to drink, that is far from my point. I just can't reconcile with this gut feeling that I have that many in AA become unable to drink in a healthy way partly BECAUSE of their AA commitment, not because of a pre-existing condition. Even if that's not true in your case, it's not that hard to envision how this COULD happen to somebody, especially somebody too afraid to constantly question their own situation as it progresses through life. I don't know of any other situation in life where it's a given that things haven't changed between your teens and your forties.
I mean: whatever 20 years without a drink is, it certainly is 20 years without a chance to learn how to drink again, should we choose to assume that such a thing is possible. Which I do.
Ok, Ok, you got me, why pretend, it's Inge.
Can't we all try to get along and still hold on to our stubborn, vicious differences of opinion?
Peace. -
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 8:16 PMName one thing that you've done consistantly through think and thin no matter what for 20 years, aside from breath. -
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Unsu...
Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 8:26 PMThat's my point! Things evolve! Tastes, abilities, thinking, maturity, sexuality, taste in literature and movies. It's entirely possible that maturation in life could, almost all by itself, lead to a better ability to handle pleasurable, social drinking - but this is extremely unlikely if one makes it one's life's mission to NOT allow this to happen!
Of course there are many things I keep doing throughout life, but it's possible to subtly change my relationship with these things: how I do them, when, where, how often, etc etc. Why is it a given that this can't apply to drinking? It seems to be an assumption, but only that. -
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 8:31 PM<<<<<Why is it a given that this can't apply to drinking? It seems to be an assumption, but only that.>>>>>
it's only a given if i choose to believe that it is, and i do. i have watched too many people that i love choose to drink again and end up dead. i have also seen some people that i love drink again and go on to live happily while doing so. i don't think that is the case for me, so i'm not going to chance it. i have to much to loose if i'm wrong.
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 8:26 PMwhy would anyone who didn't have a problem with drinking, or had the ability to drink in a healthy way come to aa in the first place. thats just stupid if you ask me. i came to AA because i never drank in a healthy way, from my first drink to my last i drank to get drunk. i have never in my life just wanted 1 drink or even just 2. whats the point in that. when i drink i do it to not have to feel or deal with anything. so i don't drink anymore. it's not worth it to me to try again. i tried many times and it was always the same result. i would think that if i did keep trying to get a dtffrent result from doing the same thing that i would have to be crazy.
but who knows, maybe now 22 years later i can drink with impunity, but why would i put my life and the lives of my children at risk to do something that in know way is gonna make my life better. if i am an alcoholic then not drinking is my solution. if i'm not an alcoholic then i don't need to drink and it doesn't matter anyway. i'm not willing to risk the life i have now on a whim. -
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Unsu...
Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 8:34 PMThat seems reasonable enough, and I can't see why anyone (certainly not me) should have a beef with that choice.
It is interesting though, how you sort of let on that you used to drink to mask something, to kill some feeling or other. I wonder how things would have went if you had had another way to do that, a healthy way to deal with not wanting to feel anything, some therapeutic way of getting to the bottom of that stuff? I wonder then if you wouldn't have had to make a lifetime commitment to fend off alcohol via elaborate group practices, but to deal with the seemingly underlying issues once and for all, and thereafter not worry about whether or not to drink? Too simple, sure, but is there something there?
Seems to me that a lifetime commitment to abstinence is a large and incovenient undertaking, if it can be avoided?
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 8:58 PMwell obviously there were underlying issues at work, thats why i drank. drinking was my solution for a long time. thats what the steps did for me, i delt with the issues and reasons why i drank. i did steps and i did therapy and i busted my ass to deal with that stuff. not drinking is not inconvenient for me inge, i just don't anymore thats all. there is nothing in my life now, good or bad that drinking would make better. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 9:08 PMBut you still get out of the blue urges to down a bottle of Tequila, which you have to fend off by hanging out in AA? Weird.... -
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 9:13 PMwell back in march of 2006 when i posted that, i was getting ready to go through a divorce. i was finaly getting up the nerve to leave a 9 year hellish marriage to a manipulative control freak. i was about to disrupt all my childrens lives and begin again with nothing. i didn't have to "fend off" drinking, i just didn't. i thought it was funny and i talked to my friends about it cuz i knew they could relate. how is that weird? -
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Unsu...
Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 9:31 PMI dunno. I admit I can't relate to that feeling of wanting to knock myself out cold with liquor.... I've mostly always had a great time when drinking.
I'm still trying to figure all this out. And you know it's not really people's personal drinking habits I'm after it's the seeming separation from society at large, non-alcoholics -- drinkers -- that occurs when you get too identified with alcoholism. At least in my situation. But hey, I gotta boogie. Let me back into the other tribe, will ya! I wanna hang out and see if we can't make peace.
Peace
Inge
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 9:40 PMsorry no can do. you were too buligerant and are no longer welcome there. it's all in the delivery inge and yours was very bad.
i know you cant relate cuz you don't have alcoholism, i wouldn't expect you too understand. just like i don't understand the way your body processes alcohol how could you understand the way mine does. i am not in the least bit cut off from society at large. i go where ever i like. i go to raves and concerts and clubs and where ever. i use the tools i recieved from working the steps to go out into the world and live life to the fullest. i just don't drink while i do it.
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 9:44 PMIf you wanna stop bangin hookers, it's a good idea to stay out of whorehouses....and maybe away from hookers.
Tell me this. Why is society soooo fucking afraid of someone who chooses not to drink? Why is it so important in our society that we drink? -
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Unsu...
Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 10:16 PMOk, now we're back to what started this whole argument. It's clearly not just a personal issue, clearly it affects the lifestyle and thinking of those close to you, if you wanna go the "disease" and "forever" route, anyway. My GF is currently spending 56 (count'em!) hours per week in a 12-step program and local AA, combined. It's a bit excessive, but she has been sold on the idea that she needs it. Needless to say it's cutting into the time I get to see her, what with work and all. If she simply didn't drink, end of story, I don't think we would have ever entered this discourse. -
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 10:35 PMYeah dude, I'll go Jung and Slikworth, over Inge and Andy.
The treatment center is NOT AA. A meeting a day is an hour a day. Add another 1 1/2 max for fellowship, sponsor time, ya got 17 1/2 max. That's a seriously committed effort. -
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Re: WTF
Wed, December 19, 2007 - 2:09 PMInge, Andy, or whatever you are calling yourself....
From one Bostonian to another, I'll try to put this in a way that you can understand...you are not fucking helping anyone by persisting in being here.
You say you're a thinker, well think about this...
Say one of these AA newcomers that you're trying to reach actually reads and digests your message about trying to re-learn his ability to moderate and enjoy his drinking...
Let's say that after reading you're very well written and concerned posts, that he decides to go out somewhere in Boston and try some more or less controlled drinking.
Let's say that he trys and fails and he leaves the bar on Landsdowne St or somewhere else in Kenmore Square or even Kilian's in Quincy and then he gets in his car, drunk, but with the resolution that he failed to moderate tonight, but that he just needs more practice and he vows to try again tomorrow...
Let's say that he never gets that chance, because on his way home, because of the overabundance of ethyl alcohol in his system, his reflexes are off and he loses control and crashes his car. Too bad for that guy, right.
But, let's say further that he doesn't just take himself out...let's say that he plows into your Jen while she is coming home from one of those gawd awful group think brainwashing sessions that we call AA meetings...
How the fuck are you going to feel if, instead of attending a AA meeting, this guy you convinced to give drinking one more try causes you lovely girlfriend to gasp the last of her life out with a steering column where her lungs and face used to be?
What if he lives and she dies, are you going to visit him before he gets sentenced for vehicular manslaughter for killing your girl and forgive him, after all he was just trying to do what you suggested?
Are you going to pick him up after he serves his 5 yr sentence, when he's out after 2 for good behavior, and take him out to the Cask and Flagon to hoist a few in memory of your Jen, because after all, another couple of years have passed and surely he's capable of moderating now?
WELL??????? -
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Re: WTF
Wed, December 19, 2007 - 2:40 PMcan only let the pressure build so long before feeling compelled to express myself...thx
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Re: WTF
Wed, December 19, 2007 - 2:43 PMApparently this is Bostonian thinking. -
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Re: WTF
Wed, December 19, 2007 - 2:51 PMI didn't mean that snarky. I tried that tact with him over in FoBW. I think it's a Boston thing.
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Re: WTF
Wed, December 19, 2007 - 3:29 PMI think you're right. As I said elsewhere, if you feel a need to be effective in a mudslinging contest, you have to be willing to get dirty!!
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 8:33 PMWhy don't you start a Tribe then.....Where you can espouse to everyone how you feel. Perhaps start an outreach.
Basically what I'm asking you "nicely" is to take your soap box and leave the Pro AA Tribes.
We like AA and formed these tribes to enjoy each others company. To talk with like minded people.
As a captive audience I know we're perfect for your baiting. We truly do believe in our programs. But without any converts to your fucked up way of thinking isn't it time to move along?
You've ground your ax. Now take it and build your own place. Where other like minded individuals can talk and share each others company.
I'm just sooo over all this. -
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Unsu...
Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 8:40 PMIf I can make some newcomers who may be lurking think harder about other ways to deal with their drinking problem before deciding on AA, then I feel like I'm doing a good job.
Seriouosy, I feel like we're actually having a dialog at the moment.
Thanks, though. I might get into some type of substance abuse counseling, haha. Wouldn't that be your worst nightmare? :)
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 8:44 PMGuess the best way to take away your voice is to give you two less ears to listen. eventually you'll tire and go away.
So in parting...Go fuck yourself. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 8:49 PMWell, if taking away voices of dissent is so important to you, Mike, maybe you'd be better off living ina more totalitarian regime somewhere. I hear Iran is nice. But OK. Have it your way.
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Re: WTF
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 9:25 PMI must say to clarify this point..."mental obsession" coupled with "physical allergy". Now don't get me wrong when I say this, but I don't care what you THINK. You have theories, and many of us have EXPERIENCE. Note the difference.
Carl Jung was one of those therapists tryingto solve Alcoholism with therapy...crentials far in excess of any I've met or read...admitted to the inability to help the hopeless alcoholic, yet when meeting a man who he had tried to help who had found a solution of this nature, told him to hang onto it. The psychic change needed tgo avoid the first drink can be achieved through the steps.
That mental twist that draws us (alcoholics) as a moth to flame, can be abated. The physical reaction that causes the phenomenon of craving cannot be changed. This is why the idea of moderation is so preposterous to us.
This link has been established with the relationship to how a person's body processes the acetone that is a byproduct liquor and creates a physical craving. This is why this has been the focus of much of the research in attempting to find a way to treat this physical condition. This physical craving does not happen to the "problem" drinkers. It happens to alcoholics. This is why it's such an early qualifier in the "self diagnosis" of this disease. The person experiencing it is the only one who can determine "FOR THEMSELVES" if they have experienced it.
This isn't really about "Inge", but about the person reading this who may have tried everything else and thinks there is no possible solution. Many of us have found a solution in AA. If you are like us we may be able to help.
I don't need to debate this, I have lived it. I'm finding "Brainwashed AA robot" or cultist, far more satisfying than hopeless drunk. Good Luck in your efforts in finding a way for alcoholics to drink like normal people, many great people have tried, and many of the scouts have died trying to find a new path.
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