Some Vedantist like to put Krishna as above Brahman, the Godhead of the shruti Vedantic texts, the Upanishads. But in the tenth chapter Krishnas identity is revealed. Arjuna says to Krishna:
param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan /
purusham shashvatam divyam adidevam ajam vibhum //12//
"You are the Supreme Brahman, the supreme goal, the supreme purifier;
self-glowing Purusha, the first God;"
~B.G 10.12
Arjuna then asks him to narate his divine glories; Krishna replies:
aham atma gudakesha sarvabhutashayasthitah /
aham adish ca madhyam ca bhutanam anta eva ca //20//
"I am the atman, conscious in the heart of all life;
and I am also the begining, the middle, and the end of all life. (10.20)
adityanam aham vishnur...... (10.21)
"I am Vishnu of the Adityas.....
rudranam shamkarash casmi.....
"I am Shankara (Shiva) among the Rudras..... (10.23)
vrshninam vasudevo 'smi pandavanam dhanamjayah /
"I am Vasudeva (Krishna) among the Vrishnis (Yadavas), and Dhananjaya (Arjuna) among the Pandavas;" (10.37)
Here Krishna describes himself as the best among, or essence of, different groups of humans and Devas. Even speaking as a third person to the two beings, Krishna the Yadava and Arjuna the Pandava, having the conversation. Showing himself as the True Self, the True identity of all beings; the Atman; the Supreme Brahman.
Aum! Shanti!
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sat, October 28, 2006 - 9:50 AM -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sat, October 28, 2006 - 10:12 PMYes, thank you Makhanchor,
atha vā bahunaitena kiṃ jñātena tavārjuna /
viṣṭabhyāham idaṃ kṛtsnam ekāṃśena sthito jagat // 42 //
"Or, O Arjuna ! Why this detailed knowledge?
I remain, pervading this entire universe with a single fraction [of Myself]."
~B.G. 10.42
it is pointless to know the details of all of His many divine glories. What is important is to know that the unified Self is the reality of all of these. It's the Unity not the multiplicity that is the Truth.
A part (1/4) of the Supreme Person becomes this world of manifest beings:
etāvānasya mahimāto jyāyāṃśca pūruṣaḥ /
pādo.asyaviśvā bhūtāni tripādasyāmṛtaṃ divi // 3 //
"So mighty is his greatness; yea, greater than this is Purusha.
All creatures are one-fourth of him, three-fourths eternal life in heaven."
~Rigveda Samhita 10.90.3
though the Self is unaffected by this world of Maya.
But my point is that Brahman of the Upanishads is not mearly the 'effulgent light' of Krishna that some Vedantist claim. Often when Upanishadic verses stating the unity of the world with Brahman, some Vedantist will try to put Brahman in a position inferior to their ideal of the Godhead, Krishna, thus trying to minimalize the meaning of the scripture. In truth, Brahman is the same as what others call by the name Krishna.
Aum! Shanti! -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sat, October 28, 2006 - 10:49 PM
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sat, October 28, 2006 - 10:57 PM
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sat, October 28, 2006 - 11:00 PM -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 12:50 AMCome on now! The last two are quotes from the Brahma Samhita, a Gaudiya Vaishnava text "found" by Chaitanya. Gee, I'm shocked that a Gaudiya text supports the Gaudiya philosophy. Why don't we stick to classic Vedantic texts, the Dasa-Upanishads, the Gita, and the Vedanta Sutras, okay?
I'll get to your B.G. refrence soon. -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 1:50 AMAustin your a dork -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 10:38 AMI'm sorry, is this the popularity tribe, I thought we were talking about Vedanta and Vedantic texts?
Is that why you went H.K.? Is that the new fad with punks? Like it's so lame it's cool? Wow, I with I could be as with it as you and have the COOL philosophy!
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 12:55 PMArjuna understood Krsna to be the origional person: purusam savatam divyam
vedabase.net/bg/10/12-13/en
And the origional God-adi deva
vedabase.net/bg/10/12-13/en -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 1:00 PMKrsna says to meditate on Him as the Supreme Transcendental Person paramam purusam divyam
vedabase.net/bg/8/8/en -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 1:11 PMIt is not wrong to meditate on Krsna's impersonal form. Nor is it wrong to meditate on Krsna's personal form.
They are both transcendental.
But Krsna Himself says that meditation on His personal form is less troublesome:
vedabase.net/bg/12/1/en1
vedabase.net/bg/12/2/en1
vedabase.net/bg/12/3-4/en1
vedabase.net/bg/12/5/en1
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sun, October 29, 2006 - 5:35 PMDoesn't the Father come before His Son?
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Fri, November 3, 2006 - 12:59 AMRight, the Supreme Brahman, the self-glowing Person is trancendental to personal or impersonal. But the problem is in thinking that unmanifest equals impersonal or the word Brahman is nessicairaly equal to either as Brahman is trancendent. We should take a look into what the shastras say about the Supreme:
paras tasmat tu bhavo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktat sanatanah /
yah sa sarveshu bhuteshu nashyatsu na vinashyati //8.20//
avyakto 'kshara ity uktas tam ahuh paramam gatim /
yam prapya na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama //8.21//
"But verily there exists, higher than this Unmanifested (Avyakta), another unmanifested Eternal (Avyaktat sanatanah), which is not destroyed when all beings are destroyed.
8.21 What is called the Unmanifested and the Imperishable, That they say is the highest goal. They who reach It do not return (to this Samsara). That is My highest abode (place or state)."
~B.G. 8.20-21
So the highest state of Krishna is Avyaka, but it is above the usual personal or usual impersonal unmanifest. In Katha Upanishad it it also speaks of Purusha as above either distinction:
mahatah paramavyaktamavyaktat purushah parah /
purushanna param kimcit sa kashtha sa para gatih //1.3.11//
"Higher than the immense self (Mahat) is the unmanifest (Avyakta);
Higher than the unmanifest is the Person (Purusha);
Higher than the Person there's nothing at all.
That is the goal, that's the highest state."
~Katha Upanishad 1.3.11
.......................................mahato 'vyaktamuttamam. //2.3.7//
avyaktat tu parah purusho vyapako' linaga eva ca /
yam jnatva mucyate janturamotatvam ca gacchati //2.3.8//
".....Higher than the immense (Mahat) is the unmanifest (Avyakta).
Higher than the unmanifest is the Person (Purusha),
pervading all without any marks (Alinga).
Knowing Him, a man is freed,
and attains immortality."
~Katha Upanishad 2.3.7,8
And here it also gives the qualitive Alinga, without symbol, or distinguishing mark; without any distinguishing caracteristics. Neither personal nor impersonal per ce, yet it's the highest state of both, the Purusha; not the unmanifest that distinguishes from the manifest but an eternal Avyaktat that has no distinction, no diversity.
Aum! shanti! -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Fri, November 3, 2006 - 1:24 AMAnd here, to top it off, are Dasa Upanishadic verses calling Brahman Purusha and aferming that the Jnani becomes Brahman:
yatha nadyah syandamanah samudre'stam gacchanti namarupe vihaya. tatha vidvannamarupadvimuktah paratparam purushamupaiti divyam //3.2.8//
sa yo ha vai tatparamam brahma veda brahmaiva bhavati ..............//3.2.9//
"As the rivers flow into the ocean giving up their names and apearances; So the knower, freed from name and appearance, reaches the heavenly Person, beyond the very highest.
When a man comes to know that highest Brahman, he himself becomes that very Brahman..........."
~Mundaka Upanishad 3.2.8-9
Aum! Shanti!
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Fri, November 3, 2006 - 11:48 AM"the Supreme Brahman, the self-glowing Person is trancendental to personal or impersonal. "
That may be your belief, but from where I sit you insist on defining terms to suit your belief. Devotees see that there is such a thing as a transcendental personality. Krsna is transcendental to all material traits, such as being temporary and being under the laws of karma. To say that Krsna is a person does not bring Him in to the material sphere. That is your projection. Another point of view is that Krsna is a person on the spiritual platform. That His body is totally spiritual. That His birth is totally spiritual. That His activities are totally spiritual. That is the version of the Bhagavad Gita.
And Krsna is also different from the living entity. Krsna says He is the source of all spiritual and material worlds. (10.8)
vedabase.net/bg/10/8/en1
He also says that the living entities are under the control of material nature. Prakrti sthani karshati (BG 15.7) We are the eternal parts and parcels of Krsna Mama eva AMSA Amsa means part. The jiva is a part of Krsna. That is what Krsna says. The jiva is not equal to Krsna is quantity. It is equal in quality. It is made up of the same spiritual substance. But it is not equal in quantity. The jiva is a drop and Krsna is the whole ocean. The jiva is the particle of light and Krsna is the totality of light.. The jiva and Krsna will never be totally equal.
vedabase.net/bg/15/7/en1
So you have every right to believe whatever you want to believe. But it is not what Krsna says in the Bhagavad Gita.
If you try to present the idea that the living entity is equal to Krsna in all respects that idea is not in harmony with what Krsna Himself says in the Bhagavad Gita. -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Fri, November 3, 2006 - 12:08 PM"That may be your belief, but from where I sit you insist on defining terms to suit your belief. Devotees see that there is such a thing as a transcendental personality. Krsna is transcendental to all material traits, such as being temporary and being under the laws of karma. To say that Krsna is a person does not bring Him in to the material sphere. That is your projection. Another point of view is that Krsna is a person on the spiritual platform. That His body is totally spiritual. That His birth is totally spiritual. That His activities are totally spiritual. That is the version of the Bhagavad Gita."
When did I say that veiwing krishna as a person brings Him into the material sphere? Trancendental means exceding the usual limits, hence the Supreme cannot be said to be limited to either personal or impersonal. So no it does not take away from his personhood. That is why He is called Purusha as I've cited many times. He is Purusha on the spiritual platform. But that in no way means that His body, birth or activites as an Avatara in this material world is "totaly spiritual". You are just "defining terms to suit your belief". You neglect the fact that Krishna says to not identify with the body, likewise Krishnas personhood has nothing to do with the material body of the Avatara. -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Fri, November 3, 2006 - 12:46 PM"Krishnas personhood has nothing to do with the material body of the Avatara. "
This is precisely where the Vaisnavas disagree with advaitists. Vaisnavas understand that Krsna has no material body. There is no "material body of the avatara". Krsna's body is spiritual. Krsna's birth is spiritual. krsna's activities are spiritual.
You continue with your misconception that the jiva is equal to Krsna by projecting that Krsna's body is material because the jiva's body is material. This is a misconception. That is why Krsna says that one who knows the trascendental nature of His appearance and activities does not take birth here again in the material world.
vedabase.net/bg/4/9/en1
Check the sanskrit. janma karma ca me divyam
Pretty hard to argue that Krsna's body is material if one actually accepts Bhagavad Gita as it is.
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Fri, November 3, 2006 - 12:12 PMI've shown with scripture that Krishna is Avyakta Alinga Purusha and that he is the Self that pervades all, do you have any thing to say to these? -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Fri, November 3, 2006 - 12:57 PM"Avyakta Alinga Purusha"
Vaisnavas understand this that Krsna manifests in 3 features. Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan. Vaisnavas are more interested in Bhagavan. -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Fri, November 3, 2006 - 1:34 PMWhere in the main Vedantic texts is this mentioned? Brahman is clearly the Godhead of the Dasa Upanishads. Have you read these? -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Fri, November 3, 2006 - 1:50 PMWhy do you apparently have the intent to deny Krsna's feature of Bhagavan?
To me it comes across as a "you are wrong" attitude.
This tribe is about Bhagavad Gita. -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Fri, November 3, 2006 - 3:04 PMWhere do you get that I'm trying to deny Krsna's feature of Bhagavan? I'm denying beda between Bhagavan and Brahman (and Paramatman for that matter). This is simply Vedanta AS IT IS, "From death to death he goes, who sees here any kind of diversity." (Brhadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.19).
Yes, it is about the Gita which is a text about the Philosophy of the Upanishads, so to take the BG AS IT IS means that you cannot make a philosophy out of it that contradics the Upanishads.
Please do not make more for me to respond to before I have gotten to all of your previous posts. -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Fri, November 3, 2006 - 3:33 PMYou are putting forward the idea that Krsna's form is material, such as your statement "Krishnas personhood has nothing to do with the material body of the Avatara. "
Krsna does not have a material body. You are denying Krsna's feature of Bhagavan by saying that His body is material.
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 10:24 PMYes, meditate on the Supreme Purusha who is also the Supreme Brahman as I've showed in B.G 10.12
bāhya-sparśeṣv asaktātmā vindaty ātmani yat sukham/
sa brahma-yoga-yuktātmā sukham akṣayam aśnute //5.21//
"With his heart unattached to external objects, he gets the bliss that is in the Self.
With his heart absorbed in meditation on Brahman, he acquires undecaying Bliss."
~B.G. 5.21
brahma-yoga-yuktātmā
Actualy, in the verse you quote, Krishna never says "Me", that seems to be added in to some translations.
abhyāsa-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā /
paramaṃ puruṣaṃ divyaṃ yāti pārthānucintayan //8.8//
"By meditating with a mind which is engaged in the yoga of practice and which does not stray away to anything else,
one reaches the supreme Person existing in the effulgent region, O son of Prtha."
~B.G. 8.8
The next verse goes on to describe in more detail the Purusha that should be meditated upon:
kaviṃ purāṇam anuśāsitāram
aṇor aṇīyāṃsam anusmared yaḥ /
sarvasya dhātāram acintya-rūpam
āditya-varṇaṃ tamasaḥ parastāt //8.9//
"Whosoever meditates on the Omniscient, the Ancient, the Ruler, minuter than an atom,
the supporter of all, of inconceivable form, effulgent like the sun and beyond the darkness of ignorance."
~B.G. 8.9
This is the same as Brahman of the Upanishads, the Purusha, the all pervading Atman.
Aum! Shanti! -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Mon, November 6, 2006 - 1:07 PMjanma karma ca ME divyam
Krsna says his birth and activities are transcendental.
vedabase.net/bg/4/9/en1
Suta Gosvami also says that the absolute truth has three features:
vedabase.net/sb/1/2/11/en1
It is fine to meditate on brahman. It is also fine to meditate on Krsna's pastimes and form.
They are both on the transcendental platform. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Tue, November 7, 2006 - 10:39 PMYuo don't have to repeat verses. I said to please not give me more to respond to untill I can get to you back log of verses you interpret to support your veiw.
Okay for 4.9 read back just a few verses:
ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san /
prakṛtiṃ svām adhiṣṭhāya saṃbhavāmy ātmamāyayā // 4.6 //
"Though I am unborn, of imperishable nature, and though I am the Lord of all beings,
yet, governing My own Nature, I am born by My own Maya."
~B.G. 4.6
This is the nature of the Supreme Lord, unborn, the birth of the body that is accociated with Krishna the Yadava (as I've already shown the Lord talking as a third person to) is Maya just like all other births and deaths.
avyaktaṃ vyaktim āpannaṃ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ /
paraṃ bhāvam ajānanto mamāvyayam anuttamam // 7.24 //
nāhaṃ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yogamāyāsamāvṛtaḥ /
mūḍho 'yaṃ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam // 7.25 //
"I am formless, but the foolish think I ahve form.
They do not understand my real nature.
I am covered by my Maya, and all do not see me.
I am birthless and deathless. This world of illusion does not understand me."
~B.G. 7.24,25
It's nice that Suta Gosvami says that, but the verse he is commenting on just says that Truth is known by three names, this in no way means that it's three features, and we already have been through that one so it's pointless to rehash. Anyway a guadyia's comentary supports the guadiya veiw, wow! So it means nothing to those who don't beleive in his authority and those whom it does matter to already accept this. So why post it?
Yes meditae on the Supreme Brahman or Krishna's pastimes and form or Rama's or Skanda's or Kali's or Shiva's or Ganrsha's or Lalita's or Suray's...... BUT THE VERSE YOU QUOTED TO TRY AND RATIONALIZE YOU BELEIF IN THE SUPREMECY OF KRISHNA OVER BRAMAN WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT KRISHNAS FORM AND PASTIMES! And that's all my comment was about. I have never said it's not fine to meditate on the divine lila of the Supreme Lords Maya.
And back to the point, Brahman of the Upanishads is the same as the Guadiya Krishna, as far as being the Supreme Lord. I've shown it with the shastras and no matter how you misquote or try to steer the subject off coarse with objections to your misgivings about the Upanishadic Brahman will not change this. -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Wed, November 8, 2006 - 12:10 PM"This is the nature of the Supreme Lord, unborn, the birth of the body that is accociated with Krishna the Yadava (as I've already shown the Lord talking as a third person to) is Maya just like all other births and deaths."
Nope. Krsna says janma karma ca me DIVYAM.
You can disagree with what Krsna says but you can't say that He doesn't claim that His birth and activities are transcendental., because He does. janma karma ca me divyam
We can agree to disagree on this one. There is no way you will ever convince me that janma karma ca me divyam means something other than what it means. -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Mon, January 8, 2007 - 11:38 AM>>Nope. Krsna says janma karma ca me DIVYAM.
Sorry I haven't responded here in a while, but I haven't had time for you shenanigans. Yes He says 'anma karma ca me divya' and you can take that in a sense that goes along with BG 4.6 just a few verses before and also that goes along with the rest of the Vedantic works, or you can do like you have and take it in a way that goes along with a puranic literalist interpreation.
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Wed, November 8, 2006 - 12:29 PMWhy do you have to insist that Krsna's bhagavan feature is material?
That puts you solidly in the impersonalist camp. And it also puts you solidly in the mayavadi camp.
That is precisely what mayavadi means. One who thinks that Krsna's transcendental form is material. That is the definition of mayavadi.
So you have shown your real colors. One who thinks that Krsna's transcendental form and pastimes are material is an impersonalist and a mayavadi.
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Mon, October 30, 2006 - 10:08 PMYes, this is the first one I quoted:
param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan /
purusham shashvatam divyam adidevam ajam vibhum //12//
"You are the Supreme Brahman, the supreme goal, the supreme purifier;
self-glowing Purusha, the first God;"
~B.G 10.12
He is Para-Brahman, the self-glowing Person. The conciouness of all life existing as the Atman in all beings:
śrībhagavān uvāca /
akṣaraṃ brahma paramaṃ svabhāvo 'dhyātmam ucyate /
bhūtabhāvodbhavakaro visargaḥ karmasaṃjñitaḥ // 3 //
"Shri Bhagavan replied:
Brahman is the Supreme Indestructable, and its existance in animate beings is pervading Atman.
Karma is the momentum that comences the birth of beings."
~B.G. 8.3 -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Fri, November 3, 2006 - 8:56 PMAustin,You are very Studious!Keep it up!There is much Mercy in your work Dear!!!! -
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sat, November 4, 2006 - 9:36 PMThank you Wendy :) -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sun, November 19, 2006 - 12:32 PMI can't back all of this up with sastra, but here's my understanding: Brahma is Krsna, straight up, but he is not cutting edge Krsna lila. Time is a gross misconception, but in the "time" that Krsna is Brahma, he is without sakti. He couldn't do much besides float in bliss. Oneness is abandoned because it is without lila. When Krsna and Srimati Radhika separated themselves for the sake of pastimes, they moved beyond Brahma. There is so much truth in all of these things because they are all Krsna. When it's a matter of wanting to serve Krsna, we have to try and appeal to him and his current interests. Or we can pray to Brahma for liberation. -
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Unsu...
Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sun, November 26, 2006 - 4:07 PMNityananda and Makhanchora, I have been on the receiving end of your insults. When you don't know the answer to something or someone doesn't accept something you say just because you say it it really doesn't help to call them names. I did NOT follow Tulasi here, I was ready to reply before finding her post here at the end.
Yes Lord Caitanya found the Brahma Samhita. The fifth chapter only, and it talks of Krishna in a loving way. Lord Caitanya brings that out in people. If we read the Caitanya Caritamrta we can see who the associates of Lord Caitanya actually are. Lord Brahma appeared as Haridas Thakur, the nama acharya.
Brahman, the spiritual effulgence eminating from Krishna's body, is an inferior potency. It is compared to the sun. The sun has sunlight. The sun is a planet. And the sun also has a predominating personality present on this planet. In the same way Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He has His planet, Goloka Vrndavana, the topmost spiritual planet. And He has His effulgence, the brahmajyoti or brahman effulgence, which consists of living entities in their dormant stages waiting to become liberated. This is described in the Srimad Bhagavatam at www.krishna.com . Only devotees of Krishna understand this, and we have to get Krishna's mercy in order to understand this. We have to get a bona-fide guru's mercy to get Krishna's mercy. It is all tied in together. We have to get the mercy of devotees also, devotees such as Mahkanchora Nityananda and Tulasi but more importantly advanced devotees like myself(just kidding!).
But we do need to search out and find advanced association. This is most readily available in the Hare Krishna movement since sincere souls in the present time are going to be attracted to serving ISKCON, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, available at www.krishna.com .
As far as what Tulasi is talking about in her last post, Novemeber 19 at 12:32 pm, she lost me a little on that one. -
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Unsu...
Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Sun, November 26, 2006 - 4:11 PMEverything related to Krishna is perfect. But in the spiritual world there is perfect , more perfect and most perfect. Brahman realisation is perfect. Paramatma realisation, that there is an expansion of Krishna in every living being and atom, is more perfect, but most perfect if the knowledge that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the source of all material and spiritual worlds.
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Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Mon, November 27, 2006 - 6:23 AMWhen have I insulted you, I don't usually reply to anything you write? -
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Unsu...
Re: Who is Krishna of the Gita?
Tue, November 28, 2006 - 12:48 PMsorry I think it was makh and manu, anyway I deserved it myself, personally
sorry for the mixup, but when Iwent to Radha tribe for help I got doubleteamed by the above mentioned two personalities if I remember correctly
anyhow I am trying to turn over a new leaf
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