Hi Padma,

Wow firstly I admire you for going so far down this path...
In all the texts i've read the aspirant must thorougly "TEST" his guru to make sure that he really is the real deal, don't believe what the rest of the donkeys say test him for yourself....

1. Ask yourself has this man really attained the state of samadhi, I believe that reaching this state is fantastically difficult and requires a human of the very highest calibre to achieve it.
2. Is he really a saint who follows "Ahimsa - non violence" and all the which is the very first law of our path as well as the other Yamas and Niyamas, doesn't sound like he does from your description.

Even if you do discover that he has some minor siddhis (thought reading e.t.c...) that doesn't mean he is worthy to be your teacher or guide to realization or that he is even a good person.

If you find that he fails these criteria, I suggest you leave the ashram immediately, but please don't leave the path of yoga which is very great, keep practicing, learning and searching for a true siddha, a true master.

Finally and I could be wrong, but I think the real answer to your translation question 'Sorry but why don't you find yourself another slave, I'm out of here!' like a real aspirant might speak, to a false guru.

Hearsay means heard from another. One should have direct experience. In the true oral tradition, there should be no "other" or else this to would only be hearsay. It should be a direct transmition. I do not think that your guru is looking for you to turn the right phrase, but rather destroy all attachments and be striped bare. Then a true initiation can take place. I would not bother asking others, as this is also just hearsay. Get in constant touch with your sincerity, be naked and bold, and without concern.

Hey my dear one Padma,

I am deeply saddened by your story that your search for truth has made you end with a bad person (I don’t want to call him Guru) who is abusing you physically and mentally. Whether you are an ant or he an elephant, truth about a real guru is never discussed in places like tribe but is rather understood by a Guru’s disciple with their own sense. For you to understand this much you need not practice samdhi, otherwise it would be like you need to be a musician to respect Beethoven’s music. If your Guru is real then you will not have doubt in him and if he is not real that’s when he get’s discussed in Tribe :)

More over truth is not something that will run away from one person in a day or two or in 7 days. Don’t worry the world is not going to end in 7 days. If your current ‘Gurulike’ figure is not going to help you then, if you are destined, someone else will.

Let me also share similar experience that I have seen where people approached me asking immediate initiation in to Vidya and because of the love I had for them I got them initiated by my Guru but to my surprise I found all of them changing their life style to start all those bad habits which are not meant for a practitioner. I have at least seen 3 such case. Think once again are you one of those who is looking for a ‘quick win’, I don’t doubt since you said about 7 years practice.

>> What is the difference between the lineage holders of the oral traditions, and the heretics, those who follow hearsay?

I have no clue of what these words (oral tradition and hearsay) means but a good guess would be – oral tradition would get a person initiated in to chanting of Mantra’s and help him lead to achievement of ‘mantra sidhi’ and fulfilment of physical desires of life but a hearsay would get a guy initiated in to his Guru’s lineage and will help achieve self realization if he receives continuous advice and direction/corrections from his Guru.

Since you are so close to Himalayas why don’t you go to the south side of Himalaya and pray (towards North) at least once with your heart to Lord Shiva to give you direction, I am sure Lord will hear your prayers and get you what you want. Pray with your heart and ask him to physically show some indication and you will be surprised to see what happens.

Let His blessing be there up on you as well as your’ Guru’s belief.

If nothing works get back to me I will get you what you want.

Lov
Raj

Namaste Padma,

"What is the difference between the lineage holders of the oral traditions, and the heretics, those who follow hearsay?"

The Oral Tradition arises out of the direct personal experience of the fundamental ground of reality. Within the Oral Tradition are transmitted the direct means of attainment which the guru has tested personally and can vouch for there effectiveness in the realization of the fundamental ground.

Those who follow hearsay are those who intellectually acquire knowledge of means and spiritual states. They lack the true understanding that will allow them to reach true realization.

It is the difference between the direct experience of realization and the intellectual games that keep one trapped in samsara.

Shanti

Padma,

What is the difference between the lineage holders of the oral traditions, and the heretics, those who follow hearsay?

there is no difference between the two, phenomenally or noumenally.
phenomenally, if one hears some instructions from another person, we call this hearsay, so if one considers his guru as "other" then his instructions can also only be hearsay. Now if one considers himself the absolute reality behind all phenomena, if he considers himself to be the subject of all objects and the guru to be the "Self" then he is always the speaking and hearing, and there could not be any hearsay or oral traditions, only the false appearence of them. either way no difference plural or singular. I don't no if my answer will help, I'm sure whatever happens is for the best. after all how many can understand the ways of a mad avadhut. blessed love.

>>What is the difference between the lineage holders of the oral traditions, and the heretics, those who follow hearsay?<<

A handful of dust.

Adesh, Friends,

For a long time, I was going through the posts of this thread and was checking on the mindfulness of the discussing personalities about how much people understand each other’s quests and motivations while conversing and how much people are adequate about answering questions or further questioning. I understood one thing clearly, after a long time being in this tribe researching on Western psychology of spiritual seekers, that most of the people have huge insecurity about the term ‘Guru’, faith or reliance on the Guru, and the gurukul system on which the total esoteric tradition of the East is standing. If Guru, faith to the Guru, and the rule of the Guru is being questioned, there is no premise of esotericism ever conceived in East. If the premises of a practice are omitted, how can one hold the practice of a heritage? This is a question for them who think that they can get Guruvidya without a Guru, graced by any conceptual God. It would be a question like:
If there was no Creation, where had been the proposed Creator?
Even the Zen tradition that believes wholly in existential teaching, also holds the Master as the premises of understanding existential teachings. What I found out of this discussion is, it is not astounding that the Western seekers of Eastern heritage can have so much question against Guru, faith to the Guru, and the rule of the Guru.
WHY? BECAUSE ALMOST ALL IN THE WEST ARE GURUS!

About 90% of the people of Western nature wait for somebody to ask for an advice, and they are happy because they can start blurbing away all their confusion and insecurities in form of involved advices. Those who have no faith in themselves and have never gone through Self-rule of proper disciplines and never stop to over-advise others, enjoying the ego out of it, are very unlikely to believe in a Guru, to believe in the faith for a Guru, and to believe in the rule of a Guru. To rely upon these three points regarding Guru, a seeker needs to have the basic patience and tolerance to understand Guru’s viewpoints. So long you have not taken initiation under a person, the person is not your Guru. He/She can be treated equally as an advisor without responsibility, like you and me discussing in the Tribe. When a person takes a Guru, already it is taken for granted that he is convinced to have reliance upon the Guru, convinced in his/her own faith for the Guru, and in the rule of the Guru.

Padma’s context of the question has attracted more people to advise him with false compassion (proved after their further correspondences with Padma) than a few who really have chosen to answer the question rather than advising based on the story Padma has written. To understand Padma’s quest, Padma’s story needs to be clarified. Some questions are appearing on that premise. They are:

1. Why Padma is staying with a Guru who “abuses” him?
2. How long Padma is taking this abuse?
3. Why the Guru tortures him?
4. Why the Guru asks such a question, that if he cannot answer, he has to leave the Guru?
5. Why the Guru kicks out all and still maintains an ashram?

I am trying to answer these questions from my perspective based on the story of Padma and understanding the question. Let me answer it from point number 5 to 1 in back calculation.

Question 5. Why the Guru kicks out all and still maintains an ashram?
Answer: I think you have seen welcome posters at the gate of a restaurant together with a small notice tagged on the door “Admissions Reserved”. What does this mean “Welcome All”, and “Admissions Reserved”? It means that all are welcome, so long they remain within the reservations already framed in the restaurant, that is to say you are welcome, so long you remain within the limits of our disciplines. So long a disciple remains with the disciplines of the Guru, Guru is the most Compassionate One. You break the discipline, you have a taste of his wrathful nature, if at all he is a true Guru and not teaching/training a generation for dollars and popularity. It may be the same case with Padma’s ‘Mad’ Guru and his ashram.

Question 4. Why the Guru asks such a question, that if he cannot answer, he has to leave the Guru?
Answer: To test Padma about his surety of clear perception that he comes from an authentic prior tradition of the Tibetan world with an exalted Guru, H.E. Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche, working six years in a translator’s job (if the job at all means earning his bread), is quite important. Translating Vajrayani Tibetan texts which are the second source of the Aghora teachings in India (the Nathas and Siddhas are common in both the traditions), if a person does not know the difference between the hearsay of the heretics and the oral teachings of the lineage holders. He is not even eligible to take the basic teachings of Aghora, the belief of Padma’s Guru regarding this, I support with full support. The question itself opens up a big door of hidden treasure that Padma may approach in future. The answer that Vajra and Mazu gave is according to me the answer of the question, that will help Padma to understand and realise the difference between the intellectual speculative way and the experiential way of understanding. In oral tradition, known as samayachara tantra, it is the transmission of the experience of the Guru him/herself, regarding the teachings to the disciple, which is rendered to the disciple as a spiritual package. The hearsay tradition of the heretics, known in Sanskrit as the Tirthikas, historically the greatest enemies as well as the hunts for the Aghoris, follow the teachings and instructions of the Guru without the proof of experience, which they cannot provide for the lack of any power derived out of real Wisdom to provide an experience together with the teachings. If one does not understand this basic difference, would never understand the difference between the lectures of a teacher and shaktipat of a Master/Guru. Guru, in one of its meanings of the term, The Greatest, because He takes responsibility of his teachings which is not mere intellectual speculations like a discussion in Tribe, but the responsibility of making the disciple understand what he speaks by the process of empowerment/shaktipat rendering the experience for a while, which is the essence of the teaching, to encourage the disciple to be sure about what he is running after. Such Gurus are choosy about disciples and they take their disciples through high tests unfathomable by one uninitiated in a real lineage. So, by the question, Guru wants to check the intellectually speculative disciple to find out through intellectual speculations (one of the ways seems to be posting in tribe! :) ) whether he has realised the importance of an Aghora Guru in rendering teaching and shaktipat together.

3. Why the Guru tortures him?
The answer is very easy, that with all Padma’s qualifications and experience carrying on in Tantric Yogic orders for six years, he still puts this question in the tribe and asks help of others who may be in worse situations than him. Padma must be not patient enough to observe through his own experiences, maybe intellectually so full that taking experiential training is hard for him, but the reason must be as he himself says, that he has an outer humbleness and inner aggression. Aghori Gurus like the Tibetan ngakpas are known to be extreme spiritualists of the wrathful order, those who pass through the experience of death to receive the immortality of the Spirit in enlightenment. As everybody in this tribe is supposed to know, these masters, where the practice even goes to the extent of ritualistic cannibalism, sitting on corpses, and challenging the evil forces of the world to confront the yogi in sabasadhana, sex to enlightenment, eating and drinking excretory products to turn into immortality alchemy….! In the Aghori lineage, the basic style of the Guru is to take the disciple through humiliation to grow real humility. Physical tortures are inflicted on the disciple to win over the disciple’s body-centric identity. As far as my knowledge and experience of the same lineage goes, it is nothing new that Padma is facing; I myself have faced worse situations to attain perfection of accomplishments and Wisdom. “One who has not transcended over or is ready to transcend over sufferings out of hatred, shyness (misconfidence), and fear, can never attain Aghora Wisdom” – an Aghora age-old proverb.

Question 2. How long Padma is taking this abuse?
Answer: We don’t know how long Padma is taking this abuse. If Padma is not taking this abuse long, then he may respond to the negative advices of the Tribe friends. If the Guru is a true Aghori Guru, it will be terrifying for all to know, that those who will by advice for good or bad (?) separate a true disciple from a true Guru, will go through terrible karmic effects. People, be aware of this fact.

If Padma has at least passed a year with the Guru, seasoned by six seasons according to the Aghora Wisdom, he has already realised how important it is to take this torture in his life and circumstance. This may be the reason behind his attachment to the mad Guru. If he has really realised that the Guru is indispensable for him, sorry to say, even God’s advice to separate him from the Guru will not happen. If he is motivated for some minor siddhis and thus approaches the Guru, as a consequence getting tortured, will not remain long with the Guru, even Lord Shiva wishes him to stay with the Guru. In the case that he has realised the Guru’s Compassion through his wrathful outbursts, why he gives this story openly in the Tribe, is an important question. As he himself states that he is aggressive behind his outer humbleness, it can be that Padma is too clever or earned enough spiritual wickedness to test you all, who claim to understand Aghora and make authoritative comments, how far you yourselves have realised about understanding the essence of the question and the answer of the question. One who answers the question is surely in experience of it because intellectual speculators will never be able to answer this question by any means. The answer depends upon the experiential record together with analytical judgement on the experience of one who chooses to answer. I call bravo Mazu, bravo Vajra, over all, that you two are blessed ones who can fathom the circumstance, of course with experiential evidences in your own lives. Otherwise you could not have answered so precisely. Vajra has given the best and the most accurate answer without any extra ago advices. Padma should be grateful to you two about this great help. Both of you have shown real compassion, which means in yogic terms, sharing of wisdom.

Question 1. Why Padma is staying with a Guru who “abuses” him?
Answer: I think I have already discussed in the prior four answers, why Padma probably is taking this wrathful blessing with basic devotion to the Guru, while some others would consider it as “abuse”.
The reason behind this acceptance can be this:
1. Padma is sure of his karmas and karmic causes of not facing accomplishment under another high Guru.
2. Padma must have experienced that Love, in spite of the wrathful behaviours of the Guru, that he calls the ashram his “home”.
3. Padma’s secretive aggressiveness being confronted by a greater aggression of the Guru, Padma recognises the “abuse” as a blessed treatment of the Aghori tradition.
4. Padma takes a ‘superstitious’ pride of being treated under a ‘wrathful Guru’! (?)
5. Padma makes a sad story to incur ego in the readers to find out how much true are the reasons behind the disgust of the Guru’s towards his Western disciples and intellectual speculation, that he states in his story.

At the end I want to put my experiential records of being brought up by legendary wrathful Gurus in contemporary time, not in any mythological era. A short story:

I opted for the padukaseva of my last Guru and wanted to present a pair of beautiful slippers according to His taste. I was confident, being an artist in profession, that I will be bringing a real surprise to Him. This ego He read through my appearing humbleness and motivated devotion. I myself didn’t know what dangerous an ego I am hiding, the wish of my service to a perfect Master. I ended up in changing 51 times the pair of slippers, because none of my choices fitted Him. By this time, I had gone through enough experience about slippers and His subtle taste unfathomable for me at that point, together with the disgust, verbal abuses, and the humiliation I have gone through with the shopkeepers with every return, till they had to say, they don’t have ‘that’ what I am looking for, as well as the fun and frolic of the jealous guru-brothers and sisters enjoying my hopelessness and helplessness in the case. When my master found that I will not give up my mission and I have surrendered to His torture, He said, He basically has no choice, and the first pair that I brought to Him was enough comfortable for Him!!!!!

When I was one of the highest paid designers in India working on national and international projects, my company used to charge for one of my logo designings (of course through the long process of selections) not less than $1000 in 1980s. I was asked to design a logo by my master for His publication unit. It was a simple tantric mandala which took me three months to complete under His scrutiny, going through 36 finished artworks. The experience I gathered in that go, not only curbed down my professional ego which was of course contrary to my practice, but also gave me greater insight about designing so deeply, that my professional respect grew like a bonfire within my world of the local designers. Nobody knows the way of a Guru. One who knows, receives great blessings through the wrathful Compassion. Padma’s Guru can be absolutely a charlatan, but this scrutiny that I have so long done, being pulled in by this thread, is needed to be undergone to get sure that Padma’s Guru is a charlatan not an ideal Aghori Guru.

There is a wise Eastern saying, the test of a lioness’s milk is with a mudpot. Only a gold pot can hold the lioness’s milk; others crack.

Friends, out of your higher compassion, should forgive this scoundrel’s blunt scrutiny, if it didn’t support you. Adesh!

Joy Guru…..Enjoy Guru…..Adesh!

ooo and if he finds out you posted this here...you are gonna get beat for sure now!

I think when it comes time to answer the question you should very humbly offer him a handful of flowers and say that you don't know the answer and could he please let you stay until you do know the answer!

apparently you haven't been pulling enough weeds....

hari om...

Dear Padma

I will not comment on whether you need to leave or stay.... You will choose the path at the required moment ,your own karmas will guide you to your own realization in choosing a guru.

Question

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What is the difference between the lineage holders of the oral traditions, and the heretics, those who follow hearsay?
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Remember all Questions in Tantra are deeply masked . A guru can say something like

A pig's dropping is worthy of worship in the three worlds and shiva is but a Drunkard .....

But they carry deep meanings , at the same time it is very easy for a charlatan to utter gibberish and pass it off as something deep.

Anywaz to the question

1.The Oral tradition is the traditional vedic tradition and also Tantric tradition , Tantra is one of the vedangas (though you will find people vehemently post that buddhism,tantra both were anti vedic ....they differed with some of the prevailign social customs at that time , but were not anti in spirit )


The followers of the oral traditions are one who trust a guru completely ,taking him to be the form of Meda Dakshinamoorthy ---> Shiva in his role as the universal teacher.

Of all the Deities the role of the universal teacher falls only to Lord Shiva .

In the Tantric Pantheon as in the vedic there is a strict role assigned to each form as you might know .


2.The heretics who follow hearsay are similar in respect that they will blindly follow what is being said .


If the guru is a true one has given you a message that ultimately without anubhava blind devotion to a path ,to a teacher is useless.


Question ! Question ! Question ! but do so with a desire to learn ,not with ego ...But please do question , before accepting somebody as an guru ,after accepting never again question anything in life .


My two cents.

May Chandika Protect you

Read the first posting only.So dont know what the other have told you.
So the quickest reply to your problem is :
Submission.
Submit yourself to the Guru.
Do whatever he says.
And dont doubt about his behaviour or knowledge or body or words.
Dont run for literal knowledge.
May god bess you.

Is the answer to yr/ his question nothing?

Hello Padma,

I am sure i dont know answer for your question.
But i beleive you are at wrong person.

Remember there is no need of any guru in spiritual practises..
Just be simple and observe your mind.
Every one is deluded in the desire of truth but forgot to follow simple truths of life.
If you really want truth follow truths nearer to u.
They will take you to final truth.
Dont beleive any stupid.
Believe your heart and analyse your mind.

Regards,
Narasimha