You said, "The 5 Ms are about transgression."

That's rather simplifying the issue. Some people have said that. Others have said that the substances themselves are an optimal eucharist. I find the latter to be the case - they are effective at solidifying the exaltation of consciousness even though I myself do not consider them taboo or the act of taking them to be one of transgression. That "transgressive" tantra stuff is a bunch of poo-poo in my opinion.

Peace, Freedom & Happiness,

Adityanath

*It is one thing to observe and come into relationship with the universe, coming up with names like Shiva, Kali, Atman, Brahman, etc. to help us understand, but it is entirely another thing to believe that these depictions of reality were actually flesh and blood humans. *

I agree. That is what I am talking about. And when I say Shiva and Shakti were the original gurus I am not necessarily saying it was in flesh and blood to a certain degree. But when you consider all sentient beings are emanations of Shakti, they very well could have been manifesting themselves in certain people or creatures or forms or whatever and passed down knowledge that way of how humans can attain higher levels.

*The story of Genesis is thousands of years old. Do you believe all human beings are descended from Adam and Eve? *

I can't deny it's existence, I wasn't there.

*So, because we are greedy Americans, we're to blame for greedy Indian gurus who come to take our money? It's more a function of our lack of critical thinking, if you asked me. *

People attract those in common. Peopleoften go to India to find God, people often come to America to make money.

**I'm in full agreement. But again, Shakti as the motive principle of Reality and Shakti as a figment of myth (as a human incarnation) are two different things. **

Again... Shakti is the eternal cause, everything that moves and is unmoving. She is every sentient being. We are all physical manifestations by her power. I do not doubt the power of the Cosmic Mother to incarnate in any form or live for even a few moments in any form she pleases. Don't let practical and logical thinking overrun the possibilities of the spiritual awareness. All things are possible in the Universe. and when it comes to stories of Gods, I believe many serve as an example and have different meanings, but I also can say that I was not there, so I can't say for sure whether Jesus, or Krishna, or Shiva, or Buddha or any of the supposed incarnations actually happened or not. But I will say that from the miracles I have seen in my own life through the power and will of God, that I really don't doubt anything anymore. I have seen Maa do so many things that blow my mind each and every minute of every day. She upholds and maintains every force in the universe, it's much more likely to comprehend rhe ability of a person becoming or incarnating as divine than to even comprehend all the cosmic functions of Maa.

*That is only your opinion. *
To say it's my opinion is a bit of a stretch. I can gurantee that 90% of mystics, sadhus, tantrikas, and Aghoris will tell you that they had a guru. And their Guru will tell you they had a guru, and so forth. Just going to my Guruji who is a Samrat of Tantra, answers that for me... Not to mention the scriptures, and writings of those who genuinely delve into that sort of esoteric practice.

I don't think it is necessary to live to have a Gurudev, but in my culture... It is thought of like this. Your mother and father teach you your first steps and how to walk and talk, etc. in the world when you are born because it's a new world to you. To think you can just march into the spiritual world and already know how to walk and talk with deities and spirits and be able to de-condition your mind of social constructs without someone to help you build it back is just mad. A person raised in the forest by animals cannot just come into society and expect to get around. Likewise a person with social condtioning and no idea of spiritual things, can't just march into the spiritual real and expect to find liberation. Do you know how many power thirsty spirits and deities that are out there that will take you for all you got? Just ask any aghori who has sat in the Smashan over night for just one night. Have you ever spent the night in the Smashan? Because let me tell you what, you don't just go into the Smashan without guidance and expect to get something easy.

**That depends on whether they had a guru themselves. Just because a tradition holds certain ideas doesn't mean that tradition can't work outside those ideas. In my opinion, what makes Aghora a powerful transformational practice is the transgressing of one's identifications, those fetters which tie us to our idea of ourselves outside a recognition of our truth as the Atman. I agree that you can mess yourself up real good, but I also maintain that if one throws the whole thing into Ma's hands, things will work out as She wills. We just can't count on that conforming to any expectations we might have.*

I agree about transgressing, very much so. And I agree that you can think outside the tradition sometimes. But it is very few and far between that you find a person who is of Vira or Divya nature naturally without a Guru and plenty of Sadhana. Most in this Yuga are Pashu. The Pashu cannot understand and have the strength to transgress the herd without having a mental break down. That is why they are Pashu. Most people in this Yuga are Pashu, and they follow the herd. They have no strength or independence, and the damn for sure do not have the power to transgress the herd and become awakened by Maa's Grace alone. In order for Maa to guide you in that way you have to turn your divine spark into a blazing fire with bhakti and sadhana so much so that Maa or whatever your Ishtadevata is can actually physically manifest through your Kundalini Shakti, to the point where you practically, if not ARE that deitty on Earth. That is a very important part of Tantra. And that is how Ishtadevatas come to Earth is through the kundalini identifying with the devata through intense and since devotion. To find that kind of devotion is rare, that is why everyone is not Jesus or Shiva, or Maa walking around. Only very few reach this state of becoming Sambhava.

*I find it much sillier to accept ancient myth as historical fact. *
And I find it silly that you speak of transgression and you do not have the frame of mind that accepts all possibilities ;-)

*Being old is not a credential for anything other than being old. To believe in fairy tales as if literally true is also quite self-deluded, in my book.*
An old person has an advantage in society over a baby. An old tradition has more chances of survival than a new one. An old practice has more chance of perfection because of the time factor. People will never wake up until they tap their ancient roots. I respect very much my elders, which is not something common in your culture. In my culture, the elderly to be upmost respected not just because they are OLD, but because they are wise, and some are likely to be powerful in some way or another. They are consulted for all the things our generation has forgotten and do not understand. Elders guide and tend to the young so that they can take part in the cycle and do it with skill.

I don't want to argue with you. I am not an argumentative person. I am just very taken aback by Americans who claim to understand my cultures they have never really been exposed to except through books and magazines, and internet and then piece together their own lack of culture with snippets of other cultures, and then refute ancient traditions, cultures, and spiritualities as if they really know what they are talking about. It's very pompous. All of this Neo-tantra is all well and good for new age floozies and couples who want to reclaim their sex lfe, but when it comes to real Tantra, new age needs to stay out of it. They all proudly proclaim they dont need gurus, and that life or drugs or whatever will show them the truth, and then they come to our Gurudevs when their Kundalinis have ruptured a whole in their aura and they feel as though they are going mad and dying. Trust me I have seen it.

Maa does work through them for sure, because she teaches them a very important spiritual lesson that Americans tend to leave out of everything in life which is respect for that which you do not understand and humility towards everything from a dog to a deity.

May Maa always keep you in her blessed lap, sweet child. And it has been nice to speak with you. I have learned from you and I hope you have maybe learned something from me.

yes, the three Gunas borrowed from the philosophy of Samkhya, which I mentioned before.

I don't need a lesson on what Gunas are, thanks.

especially since we seem to differ on the definition of an Avadhuta...

www.geocities.com/advaitave...tagita.htm

that is not a term to be thrown around lightly.

> How on earth do you know?
*****
I don't have to know. The statement itself: "Shiva is the father of Tantra", is ridiculous at face value. The idea of there being a historical Shiva who did stuff like put the Ganga in his hair or cut his kid to pieces, to be reconstructed from elephant parts, is beyond the pale.

But don't worry, you aren't alone. The world is chock full of folks willing to believe anything to escape the humdrum of their lives. It's just too bad that self-realization hides right in the middle of that humdrum.

> Shiva is the Father of All
*****
In terms of being the source of all awareness. However, he's only the "father" of those who accept Shaivaite ideas.

> that's offensive to those who are devotees of Shiva.
*****
Then Shiva still has a lot of work to do in those devotees.

> it's offensive in nature to compare a cosmic deity to a man who passes out candies and toys to children.
*****
Not when both are constructions of myth.

> St. Nicholas ACTUALLY existed
*****
That doesn't mean a flying jolly dude distributing toys is anything other than myth.

> Shiva lives through every realized saint and mystic!
*****
Shiva lives in every person in every time on every planet in every universe. Saints and mystics have nothing on us common Joes in this regard.

Make no assumptions about me, I have no qualifications. If you do not believe you can spiritually progress, and that it's an occluding concept, fine. You are welcome to that. I am the type of person who believes all things are possible. I am always a student, I am never a teacher. In fact I don't know anything at all, so I am just going to stop talking to you from here on out. I am sure you wont be missing out on anything since I am probably some crack pot to you anyway because I believe in the possibility of supernatural happenings and possibility of all kind. Neither you or I, can completely comprehend the manifested Universe, and if you think you do, you are mistaken. I don't doubt or question anything. Just look at nature and you will see a miracle. Look at how the Universe maintains itself through whatever you believe maintains it, and see how miraculously it flows in perfection. How everything is mathematically perfect. Everything here existing for a reason, and all other things that it connects to. The perfect orbit. The perfect destruction and creation of new bodies. That's proof enough for me to believe in anything, dragons, manifested deities, whatever. Call me simple minded, but I like to keep it simple. I am happy and every day Mother Sarveshi astounds me and fills me with incomprehensible joy, and I hope that she does the same to you! And that's very important, is to just be happy and keep it simple. By pretending that either of us know answers to anything, we are fooling ourselves.

heh. somehow I find that hard to believe, but okay.

I met enough sadhus in India to be able to tell the ones who are full of shit from those that aren't. if you've been there so many times, I'm sure you realize I ain't talking about the dudes who hang near the garbage.

in any case, your attitude isn't doing anything for making me want to hear what those "real tantrics" have to say... as it stands, I can go with what sadhus said... or some dude on the internet.

my choice of potential spirtual guidance is pretty clear.