JAI MA ! most Tantrikas go against the most of the Tantras teachings by excluding , repressing or deniying priority to Women / The Female Principle , which is the core and essence of Tantra and Shakti sadhana . how can we transcend this contradiction ?
posted by:
|
India
|
-
there are many schools of tantra (Ganapati Tantra, Surya tantra, Vaishnava Tantra, Shaiva Tantra, Shakti tantra, Jain Tantra, Buddhist Tantra, Vidya & Avidya Tantra and many more) Shakti Tantra is just one path, Although in Many I think that she plays a vital and equal role but not a dominant role.
-
Actually a true male Sadhaka will respect women as Devi, but also men are emanations of Shakti as well, it is just more powerful in men. In true Tantra where one transcends society women are not repressed, but seen as divine. But Shakti cannot exist without Shiva and vice versa. They are part of one whole. A true Sadhak or Sadhaka will realize the male and female forces within each and every person and transcend them eventually. In many sects of Tantra women were considered the highest Guru... It was considered very auspicious to have a Diksha and Shaktipat from a Yogini/Bhairavi, much more so than a diksha with a male. Also men can gain a lot of blessings from a true female Yogini and Bhairavi. The wisdom and power she can give is almost essential in some aspects. In many sects, the female Shaktis are held in high regard, because all women are emanations of Maa. It's sometimes said that a male to be truly successful in Shakti worship must tap into his own inner feminine qualities. During many festivals of Goddesses, some male devotees who really want to honor Maa, will don the attire of women. It almost always has nothing to do with sexuality or gender variance and everything to do with devotion to Maa. Men have many qualities and capabilities of their own, but women are prone to being very powerful spiritual people because of their ability to think outside of their logical awareness and the side of the mind ruled by the sun, and tap into the side of the mind dominant by the "moon" if you will. The Sun awareness is the path of Jnana. The Moon and intuitive awakened awareness is the path of Bhakti. Women can really excel at Bhakti because of the intense emotions we are capable of. Not to say men cannot attain these things, of course. It's just easier as anyone can see for women to be very emotional about something. And of course when you are a devotee of a deity you often become like that deity, so in order for a male to be a devotee of Maa, he will have to tap into his feminine side. This is also for the reason that in order to be successful at Sadhana his sexuality must be controlled, which is easier when all women are looked at as mothers and daughters.
I think true transcendence spiritually does not get caught up in gender and what have you. I dont think that most real tantrikas exlcude women, that would be foolish considering how many tantrikas worship Maa. It is true that men have rule in a lot of things when it comes to orthodox religion with priests, but true Tantra is very unorthodox and does not hold the same views of society. Especially early forms of Tantra, you will see a high reverence for women and the Earth as sources of power and wisdom. But of course women should also respect men as well for their own abilities. A person who is realized sees all as the same. Male and female, black and white, good and evil. All these polar opposites that exist to cause the flux of nature just drop away.
-
How can we transcend this contradition?
Witness and find where you may have not yet transcended this contradiction and start there!
Patriarchal domination is everywhere in the world, so why not in the supposedly holy Hinduism and Tantra? Where women are superior and deserving of worship, the patriarchs cannot find out, only intellectually so. Practically they get baffled by the experiential nature of women. So it takes women (one or many at a time) to the reigns to drive this chariot out of the fire and into the cooling nectar of a Mother's love. It will take women to reclaim women's rights and authority, but never in the patriarchs same way through force and domination, but by the way of the matriarchs, loving, living, and care-taking by example. -
-
We live in a time of violence, confusion and materialism. Women go to Doctors to be cut up and operated so they can look like girls in the magazine. Where women allow themselves to be video taped and photographed doing perverse things for money knowing it's for men to be pleasured. It's going to take a lot to change the mentality of modern women. In the cosmetology industry I always get older women so upset about aging and being curvy. Women were revered in ancient times for being old and wise, especially spiritual women. Also curves which is natural to women used to be considered beautiful, now it's common for women to want to have large fake breasts, narrow hips and a muscular tone. It's a male and media imposed ideal of beauty that women accept. The entire idea of women being useless after a certain age or past a certain weight is the fault of media and men who consider women only worth something if they are thing, young and sexy. Women accept this because the majority of all people men and women follow the herd, they are beast like, or Pashus. They do whatever they are told and whatever they see is normal for society without questioning it. The real problem is this herd mentality. If women and humanity in gneral regardless of gender want to go anywhere they better start questioning why, how, and what and learning to think for themselves.
I like the example of Durga which means inaccessible. Whenever I get men who think they can win me over with their looks alone are sadly mistaken. I read them through and through and say exactly the right thing to send them flying, unless they are brave and intelligent they wont get anywhere with me. I have to have a man who is a hero and not a herd following beast. One who can put up with me spending hours in the cemetary and wondering around the house in the dead of night in ash covered rags muttering to myself, hahaha. -
-
>>cremation grounds, covered in ash, etc.
those were certainly things that made me pretty damn sure about my fiancee.
how many people will go with you to the smashan all night?
-
Pashu is not for this age... I do not believe women who are Pashu could ever really identify with Ma Durga and should get out of the way or grow a new backbone...a cold hard scientific fact, that for life to continue on Earth men are really not needed..frogs have already begun this radical new change in evolution, which may be the answer to patriarchal rule for thousands of years... Nature will do what is necessary to evolve.
sometimes wrath is necessary, at the end of an age, for the new age to emerge, but when in Her hands wrath takes on the most beautiful form it has ever known... Her wrath is not the stuff of human aggrandizement, so it is not easily understood by those who are not able to see the grander plan, with expansive vision, beyond the wants and desires of their little needs... for this is the way the universe works, one galaxy, devouring another for life to continue - transformed and revitalized... nothing ever stays the same, our nature is to change, accept it or not.
~Om Shanti -
-
I believe in balance, not that one gender is more important than the other for our species. I think if it was shifted too far the other way you would see problems as well. Certainly there would be different emphases, but any system out of balance is going to have problems. The solution is not to swing wholly to one side or the other but to achieve balance of all principles, including that of gender.
-
-
yeah, I agree, balance is optimal.
I wasn't stating my own personal preference for one gender over another... though the Earth hasn't had balance for quite some time, and neither has one half of the gender population... humans have been dominating Nature and patriarchal control has sought to control birth by controlling women, by separating the female principle from both men and women and from the Goddess Herself by instituting its own laws and hierarchal male gods. ...
my own opinion has little to do with what Nature Herself will come up with to save our planet ...but I will say that I think it is far to late in the game to ask this question..and I feel that my own ideas on the matter are really irrelevant.
~ Om Shanti -
-
I don't agree Earth is without balance. I very much disagree. Everything in Nature, every event, every person, everything that moves and does not move is the play of Mother Shakti. Nothing exists out of balance, nothing happens by accident. It's all the play of Maa, her creation is perfect. You only see things as un-balanced due to your own shortcomings and imbalance. Humans think they are dominating nature, but it's their own nature that dominates them. We are in a time of dissolution which is why so many things have destructive tendencies. Just like Earth had a time that was matriarchal, due to balance we are living in a time that is patriarchal. Men, Women and everything in between play a role. Males and females and that which is in between of any sentient being plays a role in everything in nature. Nature is not something that can exist out of balance! Everythign that exists in the Universe, exists by careful planning and through Maa's power. If you think that it is imbalanced you are questioning the Universe, Maa, and God for their reasoning for things. What makes you think that we are imbalanced?
-
Save our planet from what? It may be within the plan and will of God for Earth to become a barren wasteland. And even Scientists have shown that in the future, the sun will melt away our ozone layer and turn this place into a desert. Nature does not need saving. Nature makes destructive choices as much as it makes creative choices. Our world may very well be coming to the end of it's lifetime. Nothing is immortal in the manifested Universe. Everything, even Gods have a life span. The very thing that is causing destruction on our Earth is not because of us... That is very pompous to think that we actually have the power to pull the strings in the Universe. Nature herself destroys as much as she creates. Planets, solar systems and galaxies come in and out of existence all the time. Earth is not going to be some eternal paradise. Look at natural disasters and the death of Stars, and the destructive forces nature has... That is balance! You should not turn a blind eye to the destructive aspects of nature and call it imbalance, because that is you own imbalance. The universe can't be all creation with no destruction. Balance contains creation, perservation, and destruction. The destructive tendencies of nature, and the animals on this small little blip in the Universe might suggest that because we are increasing in destructive energy, the destruction of a cycle here on this planet might be close at hand.
We can't possibly comprehend and fathom the ways of nature. She does not just exist in things that are living and creating, she also exists in death, and things that are dying. I am sure and positive that the increase in natural disasters, humans being destructive, the Jelly fish choking life out of the sea from warmth, pollution, and animals becoming more and more aggresive and attacking people is ALL part of balance.
You have to have light and dark, good and evil, creation and destruction, male and female, all the polar opposites that make nature exist in balance. By having female or male alone is to be imbalanced, To have all creative tendencies and no destructive is imbalanced. Patriarchal control is just another part of the drama of life, just like matriarchal rule was. The Goddess *herself* is actually both male and female because she is everything male and female. She is destructive, and exists in disease, loss of life, anger and all other negative things just as much as the positive.
Don't let the American New Age rose tinted view on what Mother Nature is, cloud the reality of what Mother Nature really is. She is everything! To say something is good, or bad is to limit yourself. She has her plan, and it's always in action. There is nothing that can exist outside of her plan and her will in this Universe. -
-
humans are out of balance with their environment. there's nothing unnatural about this whatsoever. if you have studied any ecosystem at length you can see that this occurs with or without humans - but it all gets balanced out anyway. if everything was perfectly balanced all of the time, nothing would ever change. my whole thing is that if people don't balance themselves out, the earth will do it for us. it's just a matter of time.
>>Save our planet from what? It may be within the plan and will of God for Earth to become a barren wasteland.
well yes, I don't deny that.
>>And even Scientists have shown that in the future, the sun will melt away our ozone layer and turn this place into a desert.
yep. sooner or later it's all toast!
>>Nature does not need saving. Nature makes destructive choices as much as it makes creative choices.
I certainly don't think it needs saving. the problem with the hysteric enviornmental view is that it, along with most human worldviews, is that it attaches too much imprtance to humans. everything we've managed to fuck up will bounce back in time, if not here then elsewhere. it's a big universe. the real question is not of saving nature, but whether humanity can save itself from extinction. this is no way violates nature or Ma. if animals that stockpile food for the winter don't do so, they die. our mundane actions don't cease to have consequences just because they are part of something bigger.
>>Our world may very well be coming to the end of it's lifetime. Nothing is immortal in the manifested Universe. Everything, even Gods have a life span. The very thing that is causing destruction on our Earth is not because of us...
I must disagree with the latter thought. yes, if it is time there is nothing to do, but if we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot, it is our fault. if we play ostritch, we're no better than the fundies who think it's fine to exhaust limited resources because the rapture's around the corner anyway.
>>That is very pompous to think that we actually have the power to pull the strings in the Universe.
in the universe? no. but in our limited field of action we have been given all of the tools that we need to survive for the short term. it's very overused, but I like the joke about the dude with all kinds of faith in God that gets stuck in the ocean. A boat comes by, offering to pick him up, and he refuses help, saying, "God will save me!" - another boat comes by and he does the same. a third boat comes by and he again refuses it, at which time he drowns and dies. when he meets God, he asks, "why didn't you save me?", to which God replies, "dumbass! I sent you three boats!" just because things are within the human field of action doesn't mean that THOSE THINGS TOO are not part of Ma's way of getting shit done! to deny that strikes me as just as conceited.
>>Nature herself destroys as much as she creates. Planets, solar systems and galaxies come in and out of existence all the time. Earth is not going to be some eternal paradise. Look at natural disasters and the death of Stars, and the destructive forces nature has...
we are not planets. we are animals. better to look at animals and how they die, or don't, depending on if they act stupidly or not. that's what we are, for better or worse. we just forget that.
>>That is balance! You should not turn a blind eye to the destructive aspects of nature and call it imbalance, because that is you own imbalance. The universe can't be all creation with no destruction. Balance contains creation, perservation, and destruction. The destructive tendencies of nature, and the animals on this small little blip in the Universe might suggest that because we are increasing in destructive energy, the destruction of a cycle here on this planet might be close at hand.
I doubt very highly anyone here denies the power of destruction as a necessary part of existence. why would they be in this tribe?
>>We can't possibly comprehend and fathom the ways of nature. She does not just exist in things that are living and creating, she also exists in death, and things that are dying.
yes, and?
>>I am sure and positive that the increase in natural disasters, humans being destructive, the Jelly fish choking life out of the sea from warmth, pollution, and animals becoming more and more aggresive and attacking people is ALL part of balance.
and so are human efforts to change that! you can't have one without the other. either way is just as blind.
>>Don't let the American New Age rose tinted view on what Mother Nature is, cloud the reality of what Mother Nature really is. She is everything! To say something is good, or bad is to limit yourself. She has her plan, and it's always in action. There is nothing that can exist outside of her plan and her will in this Universe.
Including, again, the action or inaction of human beings. -
-
>> "Don't let the American New Age rose tinted view on what Mother Nature is, cloud the reality of what Mother Nature really is. She is everything..."
hehehhe : )
of course She is everything... but most Shaktas, including myself, also see change as part of that Reality, meaning that we don't just dismiss Nature and say it is just Maya or an illusion. some of us hold the View and acknowledge that we're experiencing the change of time as it passes while we are in it, and we cannot say that is not as Real as anything else, or even differentiate it from the un-manifest or timelessness of Parashakti or Brahman.
>>That is very pompous to think that we actually have the power to pull the strings in the Universe.
hehhehe...pompous?
Shakti also gives us the impetus to transform and evolve, into something greater than ourselves, into something greater than what is currently thought of as human with limited abilities, senses and emotions ... If this were not the case we would simply be automatons.
my Spiritual Mother has often said to me that the Rishis and Sages were all once humans on Earth doing exactly what we are doing now, working their karma off, working their asses off. The planets are all ruled by these evolved immortal souls, the Rishis and Sages, and while I think that they have a hand in what humanity is doing since many humans I know of are involved in working with them, and are able to pull the strings if they want, as all evolved being are most definitely endowed with such siddhi and are capable of using it -- they are also allowing us to make mistakes as well -- so that we can experience the fruits of our own karma; for this is part and parcel to our evolution. I do not believe that they are going to save us, nor is anyone else going to save us from our own stupidity. there are no saviors in the future for us, that is a an x-tian belief. for we are the ones we have been waiting for! and just like with small children, you can tell them not to touch hot coals many times, but they really do have to experience it for themselves...
that is what Earth is all about, we descend here to do the "work." we are all in the same boat, like or not. and perhaps it would be better to acknowledge that we are all sharing this same realm. that we are all humans experiencing the same human Reality. this is what we all do and can share..
Jai Maa! -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded."of course She is everything... but most Shaktas, including myself, also see change as part of that Reality, meaning that we don't just dismiss Nature and say it is just Maya or an illusion. some of us hold the View and acknowledge that we're experiencing the change of time as it passes while we are in it, and we cannot say that is not as Real as anything else, or even differentiate it from the un-manifest or timelessness of Parashakti or Brahman. "
I never said that Maya was any more more or less real.
"Shakti also gives us the impetus to transform and evolve, into something greater than ourselves, into something greater than what is currently thought of as human with limited abilities, senses and emotions ... If this were not the case we would simply be automatons.
my Spiritual Mother has often said to me that the Rishis and Sages were all once humans on Earth doing exactly what we are doing now"
RIshis and Sages are way beyond most people. Rishis are busy helping maintain the Universe, of course. I don't agree it's impossible to reach that stage, but for most people, being a Rishi is so beyond their scope of understanding, they wouldn't even know where to begin to reach that kind of level.
"that is what Earth is all about, we descend here to do the "work." we are all in the same boat, like or not. and perhaps it would be better to acknowledge that we are all sharing this same realm. that we are all humans experiencing the same human Reality. this is what we all do and can share.. "
Yes I totally agree. However a lot of people get so lost in the world with their karmas they make so many more karmas and keep doing the same things over and over. They never learn. It takes a compassionate being to one day come and help them along the path for them to realize their's more to life than this. Being a human on Earth is supposedly the best and fastest way to enact change on your self and get work done, and supposedly very blessed to be a human. But that does not mean that anyone in any majority knows what's going on enough to actually get any work done. Most people are following their primal animalistic insticts, and creating more karma and debt than they are eliminating Karma and enacting change. Hence the term Pashu which is equivelent to the herd following beast.
I never said Maya was illusion or that being Human wasn't fortunate. I am just saying that humans often think they can control more things than they really can, and many people often have this view that we alone are responsible for the course of the Earth. It may be so, but I also think that just like animals that follow certain patterns, so do human beings who do not realize their true nature. They still identify with the human body which is just as much animalistic as any other animal on the planet, give or take. And we also follow patterns and behaviours that cause things to change on a large scale. I very much believe that a lot of the destruction humans have caused on Earth is all part of the divine play. Just like demons who are sent to speed up dissolution, other sentient beings with destructive tendencies can help speed it as well, in fact those who live up to their asuric and animalistic natures ARE the Asuras in the sense that the nature of an Asura has taken them over . And it's easy when the human is a Pashu, because they follow their animalistic nature, so it's very easy for people like that to become puppets, and most are puppets. All this save the Earth business, and women being capable of enacting some kind of Utopia is all very far fetched, and unless it's within the script of the Divine play, chances are it's not going to happen. People really don't have as much free will as they think... It's very rare for someone to step out of the Herd and be able to enact any real change on themselves let alone the planet around them. You can't save any planet or even help another soul if you haven't saved yourself. -
-
Rasa wrote: >>"Most people are following their primal animalistic insticts, and creating more karma and debt than they are eliminating Karma and enacting change."
yes, I suppose you may be right. I myself have no definitive answers. I have noticed that it often seems that way when outwardly observing what others are doing...but these days I am far more involved in my own inner practice to really care... I honestly have enough of my own karma to burn off, to really worry about or judge what other people are doing.. with the grace of Maa it is burning and that is where my focus lies. I have also considered that maybe it is none of my business what others are doing.
your wrote: >> "I never said Maya was illusion or that being Human wasn't fortunate. I am just saying that humans often think they can control more things than they really can, and many people often have this view that we alone are responsible for the course of the Earth."
I apologize if I did misunderstand you...
*some of your previous statements in your last few posts led me to believe that, rightly or not. It sounded to me that you were making blanketed spiritual assertions, and some of these read rather like excuses or negations of one's responsibility as stewards of the Earth, that don't need to clean up after themselves. negating that we're also here to play our role in creation, preservation and destruction, and to keep the balance within and without. when you say that everything is Maa's plan and will, and that nothing exists out of balance and is perfect, it can also be interpreted as humans having nothing to do to evolve, that we have no work to do since Maa is taking care of everything according to plan, or that it is all an illusion, so it does not matter. and if that were the case we would not be here working off our karma doing sadhana.
*for example, here are a few of your previous statements that I'm referring to ::
"Nothing exists out of balance, nothing happens by accident. It's all the play of Maa, her creation is perfect."
"Everythign that exists in the Universe, exists by careful planning and through Maa's power."
"The very thing that is causing destruction on our Earth is not because of us..."
"We can't possibly comprehend and fathom the ways of nature."
"She has her plan, and it's always in action. There is nothing that can exist outside of her plan and her will in this Universe."
you wrote: >> "Just like demons who are sent to speed up dissolution, other sentient beings with destructive tendencies can help speed it as well, in fact those who live up to their asuric and animalistic natures ARE the Asuras in the sense that the nature of an Asura has taken them over."
well I agree to a certain extent... the Asuras are not outside of us, they exist within all of us, imo... the tales of Devi fighting with the demons are not meant to be taken literally. It has been noted by many that they speak of altered states of consciousness and dream states.. I do think it is interesting that all of the asuras that engage in war with Ma Durga in Her various forms, usually are bestowed with one of Her names after defeat..
again, I believe this points to a truth that Devi is fighting with Her own internal demons.
what these tales convey for us is much the same, imo .... as humans, and as so-called individuals, or a collective of humans sharing the same human experience, we need to overcome our animalistic, angry, greedy, prideful, selfish tendencies, which the asuras represent for us. this is part of our evolution...
>> "You can't save any planet or even help another soul if you haven't saved yourself."
I absolutely agree... my way of saying this is bound souls bind others to their ignorance, but I think that we always have a choice, and change is always possible.
~ Om Shanti
-
-
-
"Including, again, the action or inaction of human beings. "
Yes that is exactly what I mean. I was actually responding to Miss Adya, not you ;-) But t's not a big deal of course, I always enjoy hearing your point of view saul...
I explained more about my opinion of human beings in my response to Miss Adya BTW, just in case your curious about more of my two cents (though I am sure everyone is about sick of my crazy input, LOL!). I agree with most humans being Pashus or beasts. Most never get past the first sheath, and never get past their innate animalistic tendencies of their animal shells. There are so few of us humans who are heros, and much more few that are Divine in nature. And unless that stage is reached, humans like any other animal will still act en masse according the the will of the divine play. Not that heros and divine people are not part of it, but they are the ones who have what would be considered more of a free will and the ability to enact change.
-Rasa
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
You know, if almost all humans are Pashus, the odds are pretty good that the people on here are as well.
-
-
when I start announcing that I'm definitely not fettered you can knock me off of my high horse (or worship me and give me all your money, I guess)
-
Pashus like to be subjugated, so subjugate them. Rakshas like to make menace, so put the nail in them. Then you will understand Pashupatinath, and why the Goddess and Bhairava move with demon hosts. Don't put the cart before the horse though, or you will only understand what its like to be a Raksha.
This is an Aghora view, often internalized, not often stated. Feel free to understand or misunderstand it. -
-
Somaadi T-There are so many Hindu texts that speak of the female Goddess coming to destroy the demons that the male Gods could not defeat. see sacred-texts.com
We are after all in the age of Kali Yuga. It is quite possible for these dieties to occupy people temporarily. Yes even today ! Myself was witness and have photographic evidence of an entire cast of mostly americans (of various cultures and ethnicities) performing Ramayana. Many of them acknowledged this and thanked me because these temporary possessions during the performance actually had physical side effects for them. The woman who played the Queen female demon had problems with a fiery stomach and the male playing the demon king Ravanna also had side effects. My advice was complex as well as individual for those playing demons/Gods and even the beneficial characters, but the short of the advice was to thank them and send them on their way before and afterwards and that was helpful. Some had to be told to stay away from spicy food too lol. During the entire play I was constantly picking up apparitions in most of the onstage performance photos.
Saul thats great that you found a woman that understanding and blessed. You had me laughing with your other comments. Fantastic discussion.
Kaal - Raksha has a number of meanings I'm going to take a stab at it and guess you mean Raksha as in according to sacred-texts.com in the context similar to Rakshasa's???
Raksha-sacred-texts.com
" a class of fabulous beings represented as demons and night rangers and wearing various shapes at will. The inhabitants of Ceylon, with whom the hero of the Epic fought, are represented as Raksha." There is many meanings to the term Raksha.
-
-
