Shiva's sex life...

topic posted Thu, December 27, 2007 - 7:39 PM by  Unsubscribed
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Do you know if Shiva ever cheated on Parvati? How could he do such a thing?
I heard a rumor that the very first time Shiva ever saw Lakshmi he got a hard on and gold and silver linghams shot out of his you-know-what!
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  • Re: Shiva's sex life...

    Fri, December 28, 2007 - 2:36 AM
    Your question made me smile! I think the concept of "cheating" becomes something quite different when we're talking about energetic alliances between different gods. There have been erotic alliances between Shiva and Vishnu even, at times, but I suppose what is interesting in the many tales of godhood is that at times they do seem to behave in very human, fallable ways at times...for instance, did you know that after Shiva caught the river Ganga in his hair, preventing her from causing flood and damage, she became his second wife. Parvati was quite pissed off because whenever she wanted a moment of privacy with her husband, this second wife was peeking out of his dreadlocks...
  • Re: Shiva's sex life...

    Fri, December 28, 2007 - 3:16 AM
    It is well known that Shiva is a slut. There are many stories.
    • Re: Shiva's sex life...

      Fri, December 28, 2007 - 4:05 PM
      His Hollyness Shiva does not have attachments like us earthen creatures...
      • Re: Shiva's sex life...

        Sun, December 30, 2007 - 10:28 AM
        His "Hollyness" does not exist as anything other than a figment of the imagination of those who believe in such things.
        • Re: Shiva's sex life...

          Sun, December 30, 2007 - 11:57 AM
          >>His "Hollyness" does not exist as anything other than a figment of the imagination of those who believe in such things.

          depends on how you interpret it. an anthropomorphic figure? or the principle of universal conciousness? I think it's pretty hard to argue against Siva Tattva, being that in order to argue against it we have to use a portion of it, IE, our individual conciousness.
          • Re: Shiva's sex life...

            Sun, December 30, 2007 - 1:56 PM
            oh yeah I have sex with Shiva all the time ...
            it's the only way to fly, baby

            ;)
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Shiva's sex life...

              Sun, December 30, 2007 - 7:59 PM
              i have heard stories where hindu men imagine themselves as women inorder to please krishna.
              • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                Sun, December 30, 2007 - 8:02 PM
                > i have heard stories
                *****
                Even Shiva goes tranny when he wants to hang with Ma in Her loka.
                • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                  Mon, December 31, 2007 - 1:39 PM
                  Even Shiva goes tranny when he wants to hang with Ma in Her loka. "


                  hilarious


                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Shiva's sex life...

                    Tue, January 1, 2008 - 12:12 PM

                    transformed completely into women or Goddesses to please Devi may be more like it..

                    ...Devi can take any form that She likes...

                    and what form is not Her?

                    the Upanisads tell the story of whole worlds/realms where the gods have all taken the form or appearance of the feminine, the ultimate form of receptivity, because it elevates consciousness to its highest Divinity .. this is not bizarre to the non-skeptical person who has had real experiences of the supernatural, the magickal, the realms where the devas dwell and knows it to be very real...
                    but then I don't fit into the the typical western mindset that doesn't believe in magick or needs it proved to me scientifically :)
          • Re: Shiva's sex life...

            Sun, December 30, 2007 - 3:14 PM
            > depends on how you interpret it.
            *****
            Of course. I read the statement as anthropomorphizing Shiva. But come to think about it, isn't such a bad thing for a bhakta to be doing, anyway. So never mind. ;)
            • Re: Shiva's sex life...

              Tue, January 1, 2008 - 11:36 AM
              These posts raised some interesting issues for me. I think as modern Western practitioners of ancient Indian religions we invariably will be finding our way through a mesh of cultural frameworks that don't always coincide.

              Like Jody, I often find myself operating in a skeptical/empirical mental framework which places a high value scientific research and tends to look at many traditional beliefs as little more than superstition. However, unlike Jody, I try limit the time I spend in this head-space to (at most) three days a week ;-).

              Regarding whether anthropomorphizing deities is a negative thing, I can't help but note that it is a natural human tendency to anthropomorphizing nearly everything. As humans, we tend to look through human lenses...

              I'm not at all sure that a non-anthropomorphized and "non-superstitious" conceptual framework actually brings us any closer to an advaita perspective (I'm operating under the assumption that most folks here hold some form of non-dual spiritual perspective). The reason I say this is that the skeptical/empirical view is _still_ a limiting conceptual construct. Furthermore, it is a conceptual construct that lacks a track-record of producing realization, unlike traditional Indian spiritualities. Although I often operate in just that worldview, and tend to think of it as "truer" than many other views, I don't think it is really any less dualistic.

              I tend to view traditional tantric practices and beliefs as a form of "technology", which is intended to produce certain results (advaita realization) and depending on ones proclivities and capacities a whole range of techniques will be needed, both in a single individual (over time) and across individuals.

              There are phases in ones spiritual development in which anthropomorphizing and "superstitious" thinking may be what is needed to deconstruct our limiting conditioned views and move us towards a de-conditioned openness that makes realization a more reachable "goal" (I realize that talking about realization as a goal is self contradictory, but such conflicts are inherent in talking about non-dualism with our dualistic languages).

              I feel it is not so much the conceptual framework but rather how that framework is leveraged to move us in the directions of transcending conceptual and perceptual limitations.

              Just my $.02
              Ryan
              • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                Wed, January 2, 2008 - 6:33 AM
                yeah, and it can be quite practical to anthopomorphize deities. Because, as I've been reading in this book on Kundalini by Robert Svoboda, whatever form in which you worship becomes the form in which god may appear to you ultimately. If you worship in the form of a lotus then God will arrive to you in the form of a lotus. And Like Svoboda's teacher, Vimalanada, I'd rather be visited in a humanoid form.

                "Aghoris personify and deify death, selecting one face of this Universal Reality as their Beloved and worshipping this diety with an intense and all-consuming love. Every day for Vimalananda was a day of play with the cosmos, his Lover, and hi never tired of playing the games that lovers play, for those games brought him ever closer to his sweetheart. Because when the goddess Kundalini awoke in him, She had a form and a personality he could interact with, Kundalini spared Vimalananda the sort of anguish She awarded Pandit Gopi Krishna. Had panditji perhaps concentrated on a god or goddess instead of a lotus he too might have found a haven in which to rest when the tempest tossed him. To Vimalananda Kundalini was not a wild unapproachable force that batted him about according to Her whim; She was instead his Beloved Mother, in whose lap he sat, allowing Her to protect him from all the dangers with Her irrisistible clout."
                • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                  Wed, January 2, 2008 - 6:01 PM
                  > it can be quite practical to anthopomorphize deities
                  *****
                  No doubt. Such is the engine of spiritual transformation, according to Ramakrishna.

                  But falling in love with God by way of your favorite image is one thing, believing, and especially expecting others to believe, there are actual Gods out there lounging in their lokas as they control the destinies of man and beast is quite another.
  • Re: Shiva's sex life...

    Wed, January 2, 2008 - 9:33 PM
    it wasnt laxmi it was Vishnu's form of a woman called Mohini Murti...
    • Re: Shiva's sex life...

      Wed, January 2, 2008 - 9:35 PM
      ...apparently they had a child...called Iapa, who is worshipped in south india, i dont know much about it but can you imagine? the proginy of Vishnu and Shiva? incredible huh...
      • Re: Shiva's sex life...

        Sat, January 5, 2008 - 4:53 AM
        Not only in Shiva's loka but here on earth as well a wife is not only a sexual partner but may be a divine consort or spiritual wife. They two may not practice yab-yum.
        Shiva has many wives with relationships of rainbow varieties.

        As for MA - Everything is Ma in Ma's loka, beyond gender, variety, and flavourings.
        Even Shiva becomes MA with not a hint of perversion.
  • Re: Shiva's sex life...

    Mon, January 14, 2008 - 8:11 AM
    Do you know if Shiva ever cheated on Parvati? How could he do such a thing?
    I heard a rumor that the very first time Shiva ever saw Lakshmi he got a hard on and gold and silver linghams shot out of his you-know-what!
    ---------------------------------------------
    And you woke up. you run to pc and enjoyed your half read tale. You dont know even Shiva or Vishnu or luxmi and just saw them as monica lewinski and goerge bush... great
    • Re: Shiva's sex life...

      Mon, January 14, 2008 - 9:05 AM
      awesome Taantrik!
      • Re: Shiva's sex life...

        Mon, January 14, 2008 - 1:39 PM
        "monica lewinski and goerge bush"?
        • Re: Shiva's sex life...

          Mon, January 14, 2008 - 3:17 PM
          >>His "Hollyness" does not exist as anything other than a figment of the imagination of those who believe in such things.

          i believe that Shiva is something bigger then my entity at this particular moment of time and space. but i hope one day i will merge with Siva and become the One!
          Bom Siva!
          • Re: Shiva's sex life...

            Mon, January 14, 2008 - 3:46 PM
            > i hope one day i will merge with Siva and become the One!
            *****
            It's that very hope that's preventing you from seeing that it's already true.
            • Re: Shiva's sex life...

              Mon, January 14, 2008 - 4:00 PM
              It's that very hope that's preventing you from seeing that it's already true.

              This is what I experienced on my "Whoa" thread...
              tribes.tribe.net/practical...ddc97f060d
              • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                Wed, January 16, 2008 - 3:09 PM
                OK an Affirmation -
                I AM SIVA!
                • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                  Wed, January 16, 2008 - 3:21 PM
                  > I AM SIVA!
                  *****
                  Hear! Hear!

                  Yet, not as dj Demi, but as the very Brahman itself.

                  It's a sticky wicket, the line between the truth of nondual affirmation and confusing a limited sense of self with the boundless one.

                  But regardless, every single person on the planet is speaking the truth when they say "I am the eternal Brahman," whether or not this has actually been known as that direct recognition called as self-realization.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Shiva's sex life...

                    Wed, January 16, 2008 - 9:34 PM
                    >>>>>>>>
                    It's a sticky wicket, the line between the truth of nondual affirmation and confusing a limited sense of self with the boundless one. But regardless, every single person on the planet is speaking the truth when they say "I am the eternal Brahman," whether or not this has actually been known as that direct recognition called as self-realization.
                    >>>>>>>>>

                    What do you see as the most essential practice leading to that direct recognition?

                    How to you conceptualize the "nuts and bolts mechanics" of this process of recognition?
                    • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                      Thu, January 17, 2008 - 6:00 AM
                      > What do you see as the most essential practice leading to that direct recognition?
                      *****
                      Doing it your way, whatever that ends up becoming.

                      > How to you conceptualize the "nuts and bolts mechanics" of this process of recognition?
                      *****
                      Throwing yourself into it with all wheels engaged. Not following "rules", but your heart.
                      • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                        Thu, January 17, 2008 - 8:47 AM
                        > whatever that ends up becoming.
                        *****
                        This includes whatever tradition you decide to bind yourself to. The content is less important than the enthusiasm.

                        > Not following "rules", but your heart.
                        *****
                        And if your heart is telling you to follow the rules, then go for it.

                        It's really much more about the "go for it" than how you are going for it.
                        • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                          Thu, January 17, 2008 - 3:20 PM
                          the sticky wicket dear friend is that we can all say "I Am SIVA"
                          but is this our Reality?


                          If we are coming from the place of ego we have not realized it to be who we are, though Siva is always in our heart,
                          yes, He is there but not awakened within...


                          To desire and attain complete union with Siva is to merge consciousness with the Absolute Brahman, and all other desires of the lower self or ego must be abandoned.
                          • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                            Thu, January 17, 2008 - 3:32 PM
                            > is this our Reality?
                            *****
                            YES!!!! Regardless of the awareness, or lack of awareness, we are ALWAYS Brahman. That's what the Upanishads say, that's what Vivekananda said.

                            To declare this truth, despite one's seeming opacity to an awareness of it, is not to say stop practicing. If you don't feel finished, then you aren't. If you do feel finished, then perhaps you aren't, or perhaps you are. But Krishna made it clear in the B.G., to wit: don't do it to get enlightened, do it just to do it, without a single thought about where it's going. So, regardless of your self-perceived state of awareness, keep it up, 'cause, you probably don't have much better to do anyway. ;)

                            Coming to know Brahman in that very real, direct way we call realization doesn't change anything about the world. The world is still the world, and we are still who we've been thinking we are, only now we can see that we aren't even really that. Rather than expecting fireworks, look for a rather calm noticing of something that's been there the whole damn time we've been looking for it. The watch is always on the wrist, the glasses always on our head, even when we just can't seem to see them there. That's the honest-to-God truth about it. I promise!
                            • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                              Thu, January 17, 2008 - 3:50 PM
                              well I know that is your truth ...I respect that...

                              Yes we're always Brahman, but Realization is knowing you're Brahman through and through, not just pretending or parroting it cause it sounds good...

                              my pov is Brahman is sleeping until awakened within.

                              I agree the world doesn't change, but our View of the world changes - our consciousness changes, ie. our desires, feelings, senses change..

                              >> " only now we can see that we aren't even really that."

                              In the sense that we aren't really individuals, I agree with you...and that is how our consciousness changes or transforms, so this becomes our Reality, a very different reality from the limited I am *me* - an individual in a body...
                              • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                Thu, January 17, 2008 - 4:15 PM
                                I sometimes wonder what people think of the three of us...

                                sometimes when I look at our posts, I see them through the lens of an outsider who wants to go, "you all basically agree, you're just hung up on semantics!"

                                I was going to post something making semantic distinctions in both of yall's posts but I had that thought a second later.

                                (Reality never changes, just our perception thereof. I agree with Adya about Realization; but I would say that the ahamkara [I'm trying to weed the word "ego" out of my usage because it is misleading] has a function and continues to exist after Realization, despite recognition of it's transitory and ultimately fragmentary nature.)
                                • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                  Thu, January 17, 2008 - 4:45 PM
                                  >>" but I would say that the ahamkara has a function and continues to exist after Realization, despite recognition of it's transitory and ultimately fragmentary nature..."

                                  how do you refer to someone who has Self-Realized while still apparently still in a body... ?
                                  there are tales of those who can disappear and reappear at will, what are they?
                                  have they retained some of their ahamkara? what purpose does it serve?

                                  I wish I knew the answer...I'm apparently not there yet ...
                                  • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                    Thu, January 17, 2008 - 5:08 PM
                                    a Jivanmukta ;)

                                    even the stories of people who can do such things tend to describe them as still posessing personalities. I think that as long as we are embodied, ala Jody's views, the limited self exists as a sort of glue that keeps one together. the beings who I've encountered that I'd wager were Realized all seem to have had quirky and funny personalities.

                                    the only people I've met without any real sense of (limited) self were all either cult-bots or trying to sell something.
                                    • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                      Thu, January 17, 2008 - 5:22 PM
                                      gah - double replying in different tribes...

                                      the ego in the sense of personality is to be retained as opposed to the false self or ahamkara, that is, the identification of the Self with the mind/body of a given Jiva, who is in actuality identical with Siva/Brahman/etc.

                                      (this is why I hate that damn word - now I'm muddling my own concepts, ha!! never let me get too full of my[s]elf, eh?)
                                    • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                      Thu, January 17, 2008 - 8:33 PM
                                      >a Jivanmukta ;)

                                      oh right .. duh...

                                      oh yeah sure I agree that those I've met who I suspect may have been Self-realized all seemed human enough sometimes, they retained something, maybe a glue to keep it all together, though at other times I wasn't so sure that they in fact were made of flesh, as strange as that one sounds..

                                      all of them, though, had really unique and interesting personalities ... they were certainly not wall flowers, but also exuded tremendous peace at the same time...

                                      Is there another word that represents *personality* in Sanskrit?

                                      I will say, when in deep meditation, I know that I'm Devi or Siva, I know that to be true... when deeply within, I don't feel limited to just the body... I know it is the veil of Maya that makes me feel separate at times, that veil is cast upon us when we're born, so One takes on the illusion of many, though I have glimpsed that this is false... but for me this has nothing to do with a lack of personality... after all, I believe this is Devi's grand play, and even when I forget, when I'm feeling separate and in pain and She laughs in my face, it is all for Her amusement...


                                      Jai Ma!
                                  • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                    Thu, January 17, 2008 - 6:41 PM
                                    > there are tales of those who can disappear and reappear at will, what are they?
                                    *****
                                    Maybe they only ever existed in myth.

                                    > I'm apparently not there yet ...
                                    *****
                                    Girl, we all are. When you drop the one thinking you aren't there, there you are.
                                • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                  Thu, January 17, 2008 - 6:39 PM
                                  > (Reality never changes, just our perception thereof. I agree with Adya about Realization;
                                  *****
                                  It depends of what you are calling "reality." If it's how you conceive of yourself, I agree. But if you are talking about the world as it is right now, I don't agree. The perception of "that," the world, is what it really is to us as beings. Realization doesn't change that. What it changes is how we see ourselves, because the veil is gone and you know you are the big "It."

                                  > but I would say that the ahamkara [I'm trying to weed the word "ego" out of my usage because it is misleading] has a function and continues to exist after Realization, despite recognition of it's transitory and ultimately fragmentary nature.)
                                  *****
                                  There is no speech without an idea of one's transitory existence as a person. The sense of self, Ramakrishna's "idea of me," is an evolutionary trait. It's what separates man from the beasts. It started as a survival tool, and look where it has us now. Plus, look at any saint. They all exhibit normal human traits. Those traits are carried to the world on the back of a sense of self.
                                  • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                    Thu, January 17, 2008 - 9:14 PM
                                    >>It depends of what you are calling "reality." If it's how you conceive of yourself, I agree. But if you are talking about the world as it is right now, I don't agree.

                                    I'd disagree at the distinction; this in itself posits a difference between "me" and "the world" - the glimpses I have had of the basic unity of all things means that if one only goes so far as to see one's limited self as nondifferent from Brahman, but excludes all existent phenomena, one has only gotten so far as solipsism. :-P everything else is Brahman too, equally. that which is "me" and that which is "out there" is essentially the same stuff. it follows that perception of "the world" is changed as well, unless we are playing word games or falling into the false nondualism in which Maya, being transitory, has no existence.

                                    >>There is no speech without an idea of one's transitory existence as a person. The sense of self, Ramakrishna's "idea of me," is an evolutionary trait. It's what separates man from the beasts. It started as a survival tool, and look where it has us now. Plus, look at any saint. They all exhibit normal human traits. Those traits are carried to the world on the back of a sense of self.

                                    this is basically the same thing I am saying.
                                    • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                      Thu, January 17, 2008 - 10:02 PM
                                      > this in itself posits a difference between "me" and "the world"
                                      *****
                                      Nominally, this is so.

                                      > the glimpses I have had of the basic unity of all things means that if one only goes so far as to see one's limited self as nondifferent from Brahman, but excludes all existent phenomena, one has only gotten so far as solipsism. :-P
                                      *****
                                      And I maintain that "seeing" everything as one is a construction of the mind, rather than a rendering of truth. As far as the body goes, it IS "me" vs. "the world" insofar as our existence as organisms. Why would we be able to see the oneness that we imagine Brahman to be? What nerves could we have developed, what senses are active in this perception? What evolutionary advantage would this confer? Many folks have these visions at some time in their lives, that doesn't mean they are seeing things the way they would if they were realized. That is an erroneous expectation, imo.

                                      > everything else is Brahman too, equally. that which is "me" and that which is "out there" is essentially the same stuff.
                                      *****
                                      Again, just because this is so (in an intellectual way) doesn't mean we are biologically equipped to see it as such. Jnana is the recognition of Brahman's ongoing awareness of Itself. Why would that result in a perception of *everything* being Brahman? The body and its behaviors are based – in their entirety – on being an individual organism that needs food, shelter and comfort. There's no biological reason for the perception you are *expecting* as a component of your realization.

                                      > it follows that perception of "the world" is changed as well, unless we are playing word games or falling into the false nondualism in which Maya, being transitory, has no existence.
                                      *****
                                      Maya IS existence. Brahman is the foundation of that existence. Just because you know yourself as the foundation doesn't mean you begin seeing everything built from foundation.

                                      > everything else is Brahman too, equally. that which is "me" and that which is "out there" is essentially the same stuff.

                                      This is an understandable attempt to conceptualize Vedanta that is very common. It's quite true when you are talking about the foundation of your awareness. That IS Brahman. But to attempt to slather the world with that is not Vedanta, which, while admitting all is One, specifies that all is One AS Brahman. The world is treated separately.

                                      Advaita resolves this obvious dualism by saying that to the source of awareness – Brahman – there is only Brahman, upon which all other existence depends, all drawing from the same well of awareness. But as long as a mind is present, there will be a world, so you can legitimately speak of the world and Brahman as IF they were separate.
                                      • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                        Thu, January 17, 2008 - 11:20 PM
                                        >>Why would we be able to see the oneness that we imagine Brahman to be? What nerves could we have developed, what senses are active in this perception? What evolutionary advantage would this confer? Many folks have these visions at some time in their lives, that doesn't mean they are seeing things the way they would if they were realized. That is an erroneous expectation, imo.

                                        you're contradicting yourself. you ask what nerves, etc. we could have developed to make such visions possible, and then say many folks have them (although I admit, you may consider perception of oneself as being unified with all things an hallucination). in any case, as I work on myself, I see this more and more frequently. it seems quite likely to me that such perception increases to a point where one is constantly viscerally (as opposed to merely intellectually) aware of this basic fact. I see no error, I see the results of work. you may be happy with where your perception is. I see basic perception as limited. this is not an intellectual form of masturbation or chasing after peak experiences, nor IME does it render one unfit to conduct their business in ordinary transactions in the "world"

                                        >>Again, just because this is so (in an intellectual way) doesn't mean we are biologically equipped to see it as such.

                                        that is why the "third eye" is not popping out of our foreheads as a physical organ. it is a metaphor for such perception. it's not a slimy ball with a retina, etc.

                                        >>The body and its behaviors are based – in their entirety – on being an individual organism that needs food, shelter and comfort.

                                        luckily the Self is not limited by the body.

                                        >>There's no biological reason for the perception you are *expecting* as a component of your realization.

                                        as a meat-machine, no. happily, I don't seem to be wishing visions of puppies and rainbows to descend on me out of nowhere. a better critique would be to say that I am training myself to have an ongoing hallucinatory experience. not having anything to judge it against besides others who have gone through this process, this is something I can't counter, other than my experience, which tells me that is not the case. but then, some people are quite convinced they're Napoleon, too.

                                        >>Just because you know yourself as the foundation doesn't mean you begin seeing everything built from foundation.

                                        this is an evasive statement. what kind of "knowing" are talking about here? you presuppose a certain level of perception on my part. again, I'm not waiting for a fairy-wand to change everything out of the blue. this is my experience. see the arguments above, that's much better ammunition.

                                        >>This is an understandable attempt to conceptualize Vedanta that is very common. It's quite true when you are talking about the foundation of your awareness. That IS Brahman. But to attempt to slather the world with that is not Vedanta, which, while admitting all is One, specifies that all is One AS Brahman. The world is treated separately.

                                        you're right on that count. it's not Vedanta. it's Tantric Monism. the school of thought I adhere to does not treat the world separately, and is why IMO Shaktism, despite the aftermath of Ramakrishna, meshes better with Kashmir Saivism than Vedanta:

                                        "The philosophy of Saktism is a kind of non-dualism (advaita), similar to that of Kashmir Saivism. In both the systems, the highest Reality is styled Siva-Sakti. Siva and Sakti are not different; they are one. Siva is consciousness as stasis (cit); Sakti is consciousness as dynamis (cidrupini). Siva is pure awareness, which is the ground of all existence. Through his Para Sakti, he effects the manifestation of the universe. He is the sole and whole cause of the world. Only, he becomes the cause, not in his aspect as stasis, but through his dynamic aspect which is spoken of as his feminine part. The main difference between Kashmir Saivism and Saktism is that while the former lays relatively greater stress on the Siva-aspect, the latter emphasizes more the Sakti. Between the Saiva and Sakta philosophy on the one hand, and Advaita-Vedanta on the other, there is close kinship. Advaita too teaches that the ultimate Reality is non-dual, and that it is of the nature of pure consciousness. But, for it the world-process is not real. The world, according to Advaita, is mayika, illusory appearance. The theory of world-appearance is here called vivarta-vada. The corresponding doctrine of the Saiva and Sakta schools is known as abhasa-vada. According to this view, the universe consists of appearances which are all real in the sense that they are aspects of the ultimate Reality."

                                        I am fond of that quote.

                                        >>Advaita resolves this obvious dualism by saying that to the source of awareness – Brahman – there is only Brahman, upon which all other existence depends, all drawing from the same well of awareness. But as long as a mind is present, there will be a world, so you can legitimately speak of the world and Brahman as IF they were separate.

                                        I see this as faulty logic, and it is where our thinking differs radically. I place my bets on Abhinavagupta and many historical Sakta and Saiva thinkers, not Shankaracharya and Vivekananda.
                                        • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                          Thu, January 17, 2008 - 11:35 PM
                                          the precursors to the Aghoris, the Kapalikas, argued against Shankaracharya on similar grounds. in some records, they won. in some, the same arguments were won by him. since we mostly have hagiography to go on, as you like to point out, there is no way of knowing the reality of the historical situation. it can be speculated that the fact that an armed contingent of Sannyasis was formed, and the need for a response to the widespread acceptance of Buddhism at the time might have more to do with the situation of his thinking being generally more popular than the irrefutable nature of his logic.
                                        • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                          Fri, January 18, 2008 - 8:46 AM
                                          > you ask what nerves, etc. we could have developed to make such visions possible, and then say many folks have them (although I admit, you may consider perception of oneself as being unified with all things an hallucination).
                                          *****
                                          I'd say it's some kind of mental condition arrived at spontaneously, a special set of circumstances, like neurons firing in synchronous patterns. But that still doesn't mean such a state is the "natural" condition of perception arrived at with self-realization. It's a nice thing that seems to happen to folks who look for spiritual truth in their lives. That doesn't mean it's anything more than their idea of spiritual truth made manifest as a psychological experience.

                                          > it seems quite likely to me that such perception increases to a point where one is constantly viscerally (as opposed to merely intellectually) aware of this basic fact.
                                          *****
                                          I don't buy into the "glimpse" theory. Basically, based on those I know who I regard as self-realized, jnana arrives, and then you know who you are. That is ongoing in a special kind of perception unlike any other perception anyone can have. It doesn't come and go. I know you don't buy Vedanta, but if it comes and goes, it's not nondual truth, according to Vedanta.

                                          > luckily the Self is not limited by the body.
                                          *****
                                          Yet, nor does it have any organs of perception. It can't "see" anything, and it can only know itself. That's why it is One.

                                          > this is an evasive statement. what kind of "knowing" are talking about here?
                                          *****
                                          Jnana, that special case of knowing. It's unfortunate we have to use the word "knowing", because it's not like any other knowing we know. However, jnana IS something a person comes to know. I guess you could say "grok," but that's still just a synonym for "knowing".

                                          > place my bets on Abhinavagupta and many historical Sakta and Saiva thinkers, not Shankaracharya and Vivekananda.
                                          *****
                                          It's splitting hairs to me. The differences between these systems rest in semantics, imo. I'm not saying the world isn't real, I'm saying the "idea of me" isn't real. Vedanta does say the world isn't real, but only from the regard of Brahman. The world dissolves in Brahman to the jnani, and Brahman does not contain any information about the world. But the world is still going to be here, and I'm willing to bet your perception of it is not going to change much when you see through whatever it is you are destined to see through.
                                          • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                            Fri, January 18, 2008 - 1:51 PM
                                            >>I'd say it's some kind of mental condition arrived at spontaneously, a special set of circumstances, like neurons firing in synchronous patterns. But that still doesn't mean such a state is the "natural" condition of perception arrived at with self-realization. It's a nice thing that seems to happen to folks who look for spiritual truth in their lives. That doesn't mean it's anything more than their idea of spiritual truth made manifest as a psychological experience.

                                            I disagree, but that's okay.

                                            >>I don't buy into the "glimpse" theory. Basically, based on those I know who I regard as self-realized, jnana arrives, and then you know who you are. That is ongoing in a special kind of perception unlike any other perception anyone can have. It doesn't come and go. I know you don't buy Vedanta, but if it comes and goes, it's not nondual truth, according to Vedanta.

                                            it's always there, it's just that we get caught up in our day to day crap and this makes us ignore it.

                                            >>yet, nor does it have any organs of perception. It can't "see" anything, and it can only know itself. That's why it is One.

                                            KS and (some) Sakta Tantra postulates self awareness, including that of the limited reality.

                                            >>Jnana, that special case of knowing. It's unfortunate we have to use the word "knowing", because it's not like any other knowing we know. However, jnana IS something a person comes to know. I guess you could say "grok," but that's still just a synonym for "knowing".

                                            care to describe it, in your experience?

                                            >>It's splitting hairs to me. The differences between these systems rest in semantics, imo.

                                            not when these very arguments I make are the basis of the difference between the systems. I have shelves of books explicating this crucial difference in both KS and ST.

                                            >>I'm not saying the world isn't real, I'm saying the "idea of me" isn't real. Vedanta does say the world isn't real, but only from the regard of Brahman. The world dissolves in Brahman to the jnani, and Brahman does not contain any information about the world.

                                            again, not according to the thinkers I hold to.

                                            >>But the world is still going to be here, and I'm willing to bet your perception of it is not going to change much when you see through whatever it is you are destined to see through.

                                            my perception is constantly changing. thank Ma!

                                            thanks for taking the high road in regards to my exasperation and not turning this into a nasty argument. I appreciate it.
                                            • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                              Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:08 PM
                                              > care to describe it, in your experience?
                                              *****
                                              No, because I could use 100,000 words and not even get close. Additionally, even proposing to use 100,000 words sets up the occluding idea that it is so grand, so awesome, so whatever, that words fail. That is far from the truth. It's simple, plain, ordinary and common, but so unlike anything we ever experience that no description or explanation will ever touch its truth, even while its truth lives in all right now as the very basis of their awareness, regardless of whether they know it or not, or no matter what they are doing, having been doing, or will be doing.
                                              • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                                Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:22 PM
                                                well, I'm gonna keep doin' what I'm doin', all criticism aside. I have the feeling I'm on the right track. and in any case, if Grace is all it takes, it doesn't really matter if I'm performing Sadhana all the time or smoking crack on the corner... it'll happen when it happens, right? even if on a mundane level I might as well be doing self improvement on the limited self instead of watching TV. I'm sure at the very least I'll feel better and I'll be less likely to buy things off of infomercials.
                              • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                Thu, January 17, 2008 - 6:28 PM
                                > Yes we're always Brahman, but Realization is knowing you're Brahman through and through, not just pretending or parroting it cause it sounds good...
                                *****
                                But the one who would be pretending or parroting, DOES NOT EXIST! How could such a one be a problem, that is, get in the way of Brahman shining as Brahman in a life?

                                > my pov is Brahman is sleeping until awakened within.
                                *****
                                That's not the view of the Upanishads, which basically say that Maya's got a veil She's got to remove. IOW, Brahman is ever awake, just covered by the veil. Another view is that Brahman is sitting there, right on the ground in front of us as a rope, but when we look at it, all we can see is a snake.

                                > our consciousness changes, ie. our desires, feelings, senses change..
                                *****
                                Over time, as the result of the availability of understanding. It's not all at once. It's subtle, not monumental.

                                > a very different reality from the limited I am *me* - an individual in a body...
                                *****
                                And I'm still going to say no. The reality stays the same. It's the understanding of one's self that shifts. It's subtle, but of course also very significant. That shift works on the mind. Transformation continues. But whatyouseeiswhatyouget as far as nondual truth is concerned. It's always right here, right now. If you were to see it this instant, you'd see that it's no different than what you are seeing right now.
                                • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                  Thu, January 17, 2008 - 8:41 PM
                                  >>"That's not the view of the Upanishads, which basically say that Maya's got a veil She's got to remove. IOW, Brahman is ever awake, just covered by the veil. Another view is that Brahman is sitting there, right on the ground in front of us as a rope, but when we look at it, all we can see is a snake. "

                                  I do agree... perhaps that wasn't worded exactly right... but for me Shakti is Brahman, find one and you'll find the other... I basically said exactly the same thing as you here over in the Practical Tantra tribe ...
                                • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                  Thu, January 17, 2008 - 10:53 PM
                                  >>But the one who would be pretending or parroting, DOES NOT EXIST!

                                  yes it does; just as a fragment of a whole. the error is not in believing that something has existence, but that the existence is the end all and be all. even if you and I were someone's dream, that would not make us nonexistent. it would simply make us erroneous as to our perception of the NATURE of our existence. the proof of existence is right here, right now. when denial of anything which is obviously real starts happening, that's where I get off the Vedanta-train. believing oneself to be unreal does not make it so. now, being in perceptual error as to the extent of an individual's existence and autonomy is another matter.

                                  >>Brahman is ever awake, just covered by the veil.

                                  and the veil is what if not Itself?

                                  >> If you were to see it this instant, you'd see that it's no different than what you are seeing right now.

                                  and I'm gonna have to argue semantics on this one too. when I look through a hole in the wall I see differently than when I look out the window, and moreso when I am outside. it is not a matter of difference but of perspective and depth, and these things can and do change.
                                  • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                    Fri, January 18, 2008 - 8:29 AM
                                    > the proof of existence is right here, right now.
                                    *****
                                    But where is the "ghost in the machine?" I 100% agree that we can't deny being here in bodies throwing words up on the screen. There are at least two individuals communicating here. But just because there are bodies doesn't mean there are "people" in them. In other words, the idea of there being a person is merely a function of the brain. When jnana (or moksha) dawns, that idea is seen for what it is, just an idea. It's a good idea, a useful idea, but only an idea. It loses it's possession of identity, which falls back to it's source, Brahman. Therefore, you can say that the individual is rendered as non-existent from the regard as jnana, even while that person is going to continue to be whoever they are for whomever.

                                    > believing oneself to be unreal does not make it so.
                                    *****
                                    Truly. This is what I can nondual think, which is very common among those attempting to practice "nondualism." It's more occluding to think that than just about anything else I'm aware of. It's a real problem and makes it perfectly understandable why you would reject such thinking. However, that doesn't mean that it's also not true. Don't chuck the baby with the bathwater. There is a value in understanding that your idea of yourself has a reality based on bodily existence, not in some universal truth. The universal truth of it is that there is no you, ultimately, outside of sets and patterns of neural firing and the body that all happens in. Jnana renders the idea of me as a convenient way to get around the world of name and form, not the repository of identity that the ahamkara makes us think it is.

                                    > and the veil is what if not Itself?
                                    *****
                                    That's the mystery. Shankara never really said what it was. I'd say the veil is simply growing up as an individual. We've only had our individuality as the basis for our existence, so naturally, we arrive at the ongoing conclusion that we are individuals. It's the *habit* of being a person that keeps us seeing ourselves as only that person. The veil is the habit of individuality.

                                    > and I'm gonna have to argue semantics on this one too. when I look through a hole in the wall I see differently than when I look out the window, and moreso when I am outside. it is not a matter of difference but of perspective and depth, and these things can and do change.
                                    *****
                                    But the case is that you are already outside, and you are trying to see the air – and at some point, due to grace, you'll see it. Then you'll see that you've always been seeing it, it's always been around you, you've just been distracted by all the pretty pictures of the air that spiritual culture throws in our faces.
                                    • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                      Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:00 PM
                                      >>But where is the "ghost in the machine?"

                                      it's all that is, nondifferent from the Whole. that doesn't mean we necessarily have individual essences that exist to run the body, although I don't deny that to a limited degree this might be the case. I like to turn the "mind is an epiphenomenon of the brain" on it's head; we exist as vehicles for the universe to perceive itself. beyond the basic biological functions of our bodies, I believe this is why we exist as we do.

                                      >>I 100% agree that we can't deny being here in bodies throwing words up on the screen. There are at least two individuals communicating here. But just because there are bodies doesn't mean there are "people" in them.

                                      yeah, just the One, ultimately.

                                      >>In other words, the idea of there being a person is merely a function of the brain. When jnana (or moksha) dawns, that idea is seen for what it is, just an idea. It's a good idea, a useful idea, but only an idea. It loses it's possession of identity, which falls back to it's source, Brahman. Therefore, you can say that the individual is rendered as non-existent from the regard as jnana, even while that person is going to continue to be whoever they are for whomever.

                                      I don't disagree that this may be the case.

                                      >>That's the mystery. Shankara never really said what it was. I'd say the veil is simply growing up as an individual. We've only had our individuality as the basis for our existence, so naturally, we arrive at the ongoing conclusion that we are individuals. It's the *habit* of being a person that keeps us seeing ourselves as only that person. The veil is the habit of individuality.

                                      there are however, many thinkers who have identified the veil as being nondifferent from Brahman. there are different lines of thought. my main bone to pick is that Vedanta is not the only system of nonduality extant in Hindu thought.

                                      >>But the case is that you are already outside, and you are trying to see the air – and at some point, due to grace, you'll see it. Then you'll see that you've always been seeing it, it's always been around you, you've just been distracted by all the pretty pictures of the air that spiritual culture throws in our faces.

                                      outside with sunglasses on, maybe. or staring at a blade of grass instead of the vista. losing the distraction is a change in perception, no?
                                      • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                        Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:03 PM
                                        also, I'd mention that Abhinavagupta enumerates a number of methods of Realization, Grace being only one, generally reserved for a lucky few. even my goal of Jivanmukti is not seen as the highest or best form of Realization. most Sadhakas, in his view, need to pursue Moksha in a progressive manner.
                                      • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                        Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:19 PM
                                        > we exist as vehicles for the universe to perceive itself.
                                        *****
                                        That's very poetic, but only speculative on your part.

                                        > yeah, just the One, ultimately.
                                        *****
                                        And that One isn't split into you, me or anyone else. That One is only One. The you, me and everyone else are just ideas that sit in brains. The One has no knowledge of any of us. It only knows Itself. That's why it is One.

                                        > losing the distraction is a change in perception, no?
                                        *****
                                        No, because it's not a distraction, it's a lack of context. In other words, we've always been individuals. EVERYTHING in life tells us we are individuals. Everything we do, we do from the regard of being individuals. The reason we don't see the oh-so-obvious truth is that we don't have a measuring rule to compare it to. Chomsky said that language determines what we know. Jnana is outside language's powers to describe it. So, we blunder around trying to find something we already are, because we don't have a faculty prepared to deliver the understanding.

                                        Rather than a change in perception, think of a shift. It's like those 3d graphic things that were popular a few years ago. You stare at them a while and relax your eyes, and suddenly, you see the 3d image. Did your perception change? I'd say no. What happened was a shift, not a change. You are still perceiving just as you were before, only the focus has shifted to reveal something else. It may be splitting hairs to some, but I see this as a very important, albeit somewhat subtle, distinction.
                                        • Re: Shiva's sex life...

                                          Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:33 PM
                                          >>That's very poetic, but only speculative on your part.

                                          speculation based on experience.

                                          >>And that One isn't split into you, me or anyone else. That One is only One. The you, me and everyone else are just ideas that sit in brains. The One has no knowledge of any of us. It only knows Itself. That's why it is One.

                                          according to Vedanta, not to the systems I describe. it's not "split", but just as cells in the body are part of a unified whole, we are all facets of one all pervasive Thing. again, according to the systems I subscribe to.

                                          >>No, because it's not a distraction, it's a lack of context.

                                          okay Jody. having the context instead of lacking it. better?

                                          >>In other words, we've always been individuals. EVERYTHING in life tells us we are individuals. Everything we do, we do from the regard of being individuals.

                                          which, in my opinion, can be transcended.

                                          >>The reason we don't see the oh-so-obvious truth is that we don't have a measuring rule to compare it to.

                                          and never will? also, this presupposes the state of other individuals to one's own. just because I may be ignorant about something, I don't presume that everyone is.

                                          >>Chomsky said that language determines what we know.

                                          Chomsky is the final authority on this? anyway, there are pros and cons to this line of thought, and Chomsky was not the first, not the most comprehensive scholar to present variations on this theory.,

                                          >>Jnana is outside language's powers to describe it.

                                          I agree that spiritual knowledge is beyond mere linguistic thought. however, following this train of thought again puts limits on what one is prepared to "know"

                                          >>So, we blunder around trying to find something we already are, because we don't have a faculty prepared to deliver the understanding.

                                          the term "preparation" implies that there are things we can do to facilitate this, IE, Sadhana.

                                          >>Rather than a change in perception, think of a shift. It's like those 3d graphic things that were popular a few years ago. You stare at them a while and relax your eyes, and suddenly, you see the 3d image. Did your perception change? I'd say no. What happened was a shift, not a change. You are still perceiving just as you were before, only the focus has shifted to reveal something else. It may be splitting hairs to some, but I see this as a very important, albeit somewhat subtle, distinction

                                          I see this as semantic, and really besides the point. language is used as convenience, and our terminology (especially in English) can vary widely due to habit, preferred vocabulary, etc. this is why I'm trying to ease myself into using Sanskrit more often, where there is much more precision in terminology.

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