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I didnt know this..
particularly chinese mining is so controversial..
I didnt know this..
particularly chinese mining is so controversial..
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Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Mon, August 31, 2009 - 2:40 PMSo looks like there might be some new "opec" groups forming in the future. What;s that they say about frying pans and fire? -
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Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Mon, August 31, 2009 - 6:30 PMThis has always been a problem. But Wall Street can't see past the end of their dicks so in their infinite wisdom the masters of the Universe exported all manufacturing sold off all the interest in the mines and figured that they could just buy waht ever they want. Because everybody is greedy and doesn't think strategic right? -
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Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Wed, September 2, 2009 - 4:44 PMAndrew Leonard reveals some interesting perspectives on the rare earth minerals issue with hybrid vehicles, i.e. Prius. What jumped out at me in the article is that such minerals are not necessarily geographically limited to China, but when China started dumping such exports onto the market (go figure) in the nineties, competition was effectivly undercut. I agree with one commentor on the column... if the Chinese try restricting the market, the higher price will spur competitve excavation in other regions. I think sustainable lithium production for the batteries is a far more formidible obstacle in terms of geographic distribution and lack of competition (see Bolivia).
www.salon.com/tech/htww/2...s/index.html
Does the Prius have an Achilles heel?
"Just A Grunt" at the previously unknown-to-me blog, JammieWearingFool, seems perversely delighted to learn that the Prius depends on a class of rare earth elements for its battery technology. The fact that 90 percent of the world's production of such rare earth elements currently comes from China, and the commissars may (or may not) be thinking of restricting their export for domestic strategic reasons, leads to some chortling over the possibility that "making hybrid vehicles which run on electricity... may prove to be a dead end or at least a very costly one."
Sort of funny, too, which natural resources are evil while others are okay to strip away from Mother Earth as long as they mesh with the liberal enviro-wacko philosophy.
So just like rushing to embrace ethanol has led to higher food prices and increased starvation in other parts of the world due to food sources being diverted to make energy, so too it looks like this rush to embrace hybrids will only lead to higher automobile prices along with depletion of other resources. The higher vehicle prices don't bother the environmental crowd -- they would just as soon all automobiles would disappear and everybody be reduced to walking or riding a bike--but I bet they are tying themselves in knots trying to explain why oil is bad but these so-called rare earth minerals are okay.
Let me take a stab at it, although jousting with people who brandish the word "enviro-wacko" is unlikely to result in a harmonic concordance of views, no matter how airtight my logic might be.
The first answer seems rather obvious. Burning fossil fuels contributes to an increasing concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, which is thought by the majority of scientists who have studied this issue to be resulting in warmer temperatures. So, those of us who consider ourselves prudent, and want to plan for the future, believe that we should do whatever we can to reduce the burning of fossil fuels. I expect Just A Grunt will consider that just a bunch of enviro-wacko bullshit, but HTWW will side with the scientists on this one, and not the jammie-wearing-fools.
As a second point, it might be worth noting that China's dominance of the rare earth market is unlikely to be permanent, and doesn't seem to be geographically determined. There is at least one location in the United States known to have huge deposits of rare earth elements, previously mined by a company called Molycorp, and as worldwide demand has grown, interest in exploration and development in other regions is rising as well. The main reason why China has ended up the de facto market king appears to be basic supply-and-demand capitalism. No one else could make any money digging up the stuff.
From Reuters:
But as Chinese production and exports grew through the 1990s, rare earth prices worldwide plunged, undercutting business for Molycorp, then owned by oil company Unocal.
Mountain Pass operations came under further pressure after a 1996 wastewater spill. Mining there ceased in 2002 when Molycorp's old permit expired.
"Most companies that were in the business stopped producing because it wasn't profitable anymore," said James Hedrick, a rare earths specialist for the U.S. Geological Survey.
There is a larger point that awaits delving here, which is the earth's potential to support unlimited technological innovation and industrial growth on a limited resource base. Maybe there aren't enough deposits of rare earth elements on the planet for 9 billion people to drive hybrids. I don't know.
What I do know is that prices make a big difference. If the price of rare earth elements gets too high, I have no doubt that the smart engineers at Toyota will find a workaround. That, of course, is the point of that enviro-wacko strategy to get a cap-and-trade or carbon-tax system in place that ensures that the price of burning fossil fuels reflects the negative environmental externalities imposed on the planet. Getting the prices right.
― Andrew Leonard -
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Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Wed, September 2, 2009 - 5:15 PMWell, you haven't pointed out any adverse effect of mining rare earth minerals, so I guess there are none.
As far as wacko goes... just try sucking the exhaust pipe of a gasoline driven auto. If you live, come back and tell us how good you felt. Meanwhile I will sit in my electro-magnetic fields and wonder what the heck are, Rare Earth Minerals.??? Are they dangerous?
Even if petrol burners have nothing to do with climate change, they have a lot to do with air quality. ... and we all breath air for the oxygen content, don't we?
If everyone gets on the same side of the boat, it will tip over and sink. Diversity could be the answer. Each to his own.
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Unsu...
Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Wed, September 2, 2009 - 5:15 PMheres a related bbc item.......
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...8235058.stm
whilst not directly relevant it is never the less an example of how much we depend on rare and non renewable resources for our hi-tech lifestyles and similarly the degree to which we drop our ethics to obtain them....
I'm not going to suggest a solution ... but wanting ones cake and eating it seems to be the current order of the day...
regards
gm23 -
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Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Wed, September 2, 2009 - 5:28 PMSo that's one adverse effect of the mining of rare earth minerals.
Seems like that one can be remedied by a bit of compassion from a stronger force. Anyone for creating the planets strongest Peace Force?
Military doesn't seem to know how to clean up our polluted ethics. -
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Unsu...
Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Wed, September 2, 2009 - 5:46 PMhi Xaliman,
perhaps only one in your book, perhaps not a very significant one at that but then perhaps if we add rio tinto zinc (www.greenleft.org.au/2000/419/22857), Shell BP's colusion in Nigeria (re the Ogoni)...blah blah blah.... we can soon establish a picture that isn't too pretty or vaguely ethical.........
what did make me laugh was the way I inadvertently answered your question as you asked it... both our original posts were at 5:15pm (1:15pm here)... rather poetic no?
as for compassion from a stonger force.... well that will be you..... (as it is me too)
regards
gm23 -
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Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Wed, September 2, 2009 - 8:34 PMI think my question was a nano-second sooner than the answer :)
Actually answers are always traveling with the questions. A match made in heaven. -
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Unsu...
Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Wed, September 2, 2009 - 9:36 PM>>Actually answers are always traveling with the questions.<<
well perhaps in your world but in mine it's an endless stream of unanswered questions and half truths..... bit like alternative technology.. the more economical it appears th more economical the manufacturers are with the truth... like ommiting to mention that hybrid cars are just as dependent on rare resources as their internal combustion cousins... that the 1.5 billion mobile phones in current use use scarce resources and the batteries in all these portable devices are made using highly toxic elements.. that theres no need to alter our lifestyles as science will come up with a really good way to ensure that we can continue to consume this planet after all the great and wonderful natural resources have been consummed or turned into non-recycable trash....
if only ... if only... if only....
I had your faith...
regards
gm23 -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Thu, September 3, 2009 - 1:12 PMBy defining the question in detail, one with an open mind will see the answer. To everything there is a solution, sometimes it take a few attempts at redefining the question before the perfect answer appears. Everyone is capable of brilliant lucidity, but focus and persistence is needed.
In this case with consumerism and salesmanship clouding the needs and facts, we must ask whether we really need these gizmos in the first place.
China really needs to clean up it's act and if they want to use their rare minerals to do this then all power to them. We, in N> America need to find regionally sustainable resources to use for our benefit, or luxury. What would life be like without a mobile phone or automobile?
As I remember back a few years.... it weren't that bad.
Peer pressure could be momma earth's worst enemy. -
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Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Fri, September 4, 2009 - 4:59 AMIronically, living car-free is sometimes only an option to middle class and up, because others cannot afford to live near enough to a city to survive without one.
Mobile phone free? Sure, we could do that. There are other ways to communicate. Pagers use a lot less energy and so don't need such energy-dense batteries, and pay phones generally worked (with some obvious exceptions in some neighbourhoods). Good luck finding either now. I also carry a walkie-talkie with me that works on the 2m ham radio band, and can use that to communicate with other hams. It is only marginally different (mostly in size) from those manufactured before or after it. Alternative infrastructures exist.
A happy medium might be possible, too. I tend to run equipment until it becomes truly intolerable, or until it meets with a bad fate. I drive a ten-year-old car on the rare occasions that I do drive (I commute by bus) and carry the same cell phone that I've had since 2005. I bought the car when its predecessor got destroyed in an accident, and the phone when its predecessor stopped working (specifically, the speaker stopped working -- it worked fine if you plugged in a headset). My TV is seven years old. I might consider replacing it to save energy, but this is not an urgent drive on my part. It works well, and displays a very nice SD or ED picture, and an acceptable HD picture.
My computer, on the other hand, is brand new this year. Its predecessor was five years old, and I retired it because it truly wasn't meeting my needs anymore. I will be performing some minor repairs to it and adopting it out to a good home. I also have a nine-year-old machine here that needs similar work and will be similarly adopted. Choosing Linux over Windows breathes a lot of extra life into these machines.
Many people would have replaced all of these things much sooner in favour of the latest and greatest.
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Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Wed, September 2, 2009 - 11:10 PMThe Peoples' Republic of China bought up vast stocks of copper before the credit crunch hit and now it's about to tighten its grip on the important metal as it contemplates opening a vast copper mine in Mongolia.
Just a few days ago, Mongolian legislators said they would relax the country's three year windfall tax on both gold and copper. That will take effect from the 1st of January 2011.
Mongolia has vast reserves of copper, and other important commodities and Rio Tinto and Ivanhoe Mines are pressing ahead with the development of a mine just north of the Chinese border.
Copper currently trades at over $6,000 a ton and has shown a steep rise during this year. The Rio Tinto/Invahoe Oyu Tolgoi mining project will come onstream in 2013 but this is only the first of a series of other projects in which China is taking an immense interest.
According to Tom James, an expert on mining and minerals, China will essentially own copper production by 2012, indicating its long term plan to capture important segments of the supply chain market for the IT and other industries.
www.tgdaily.com/content/view/43811/118/ -
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Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 7:47 AMAsking the rhetorical question....What makes Smokey Bear cry?
mining runoff.
exporting the demand for mined resources (environmental threats inclusive) can only serve to camoflauge from the market, the destructive power of that dependency...
and also serve to cause broadband suppression of acknowledgement of the inter-dependency in the matter of global climate change.
The State Florida specifically, for example, itself receives more dust-born biologically-viable disease from African deserts than any other location in the world... annually already. You might take a look online at the health consequences of the Red Tide there, for a more responsible perspective in general. -
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Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 12:30 PMjon, you have a mastery at unique structuring of the english language. Well done! -
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Re: hybrid cars use rare chinese minerals
Fri, September 11, 2009 - 11:26 AMthx
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