The right of the people

topic posted Sun, September 28, 2008 - 9:02 AM by  ALLAH God of...
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When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
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  • Re: The right of the people

    Sun, September 28, 2008 - 9:46 AM
    Some months ago I was Pro Choice. I have re thought that and have reversed myself on that.
    I no longer think that the newly conceived human being must walk and talk to deserve life or our protection and care.


    I'm coming to a position where I am seeing health care as a right of the people. That the people possess the right to create it as best they can and that is isn't parasitism (as I have formerly characterized it) but, rather an extension of the intent framed by the words "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

    They are not law, they are ideals, principles which we ought to be using to guide us. I'm thinking that the principle urges me to reverse myself yet again.



    • Re: The right of the people

      Wed, October 1, 2008 - 6:57 AM
      If life is tied to liberty and happiness should not the nation as a whole enable the people to be healthy?

      Am I coming to a wrong headed position that health care for the helpless is not wrong?

      Granted there are always going to be parasites and sponges and idiots who engage in high risk lifestyle choices.
      However might that not simply be the cost of having a free nation?
      What are the costs and the benefits?
      Should health care be a cost to all and a benefit to those who need it?

      I'm struggling with this and I'm not finding any firm resolution just yet.
      • Re: The right of the people

        Wed, October 1, 2008 - 7:01 AM
        It's like I am Schrödinger's cat. I am in both places at the same time until the box is opened and one of me will have passed and the other will emerge.
        • Re: The right of the people

          Wed, October 1, 2008 - 7:29 AM
          In my head the idea of health care is ( I think) becoming divorced from the idea of a giveaway.

          Is it not a legislative effort to convert the "have nots" into a dependant population of semi haves. This because the idea of health care is not transferable. I mean to say that a health care deliverable whether it's a flue shot or an operation can not be transferred. It is not fungible.
          The benefits one receives may be thought of as fungible but, only in the most indirect and diffuse way. In order for the recipient to use the benefit of some health care deliverable as a commodity that person must undertake some market event that would have returned the same exchange rate if the health care deliverable were not part of the transaction. The difference being that the persons is enabled by virtue of better health to engage in the transaction. This connection is too diffuse to be fairly considered meaningful except as it regards the person who might not have been able to transact.

          This makes health care distinct from say the Community reinvestment act where persons were handed an opportunity with no concern for whether they would be able to pay it back under the contractual provisions that governed the transaction.

          Additionally Health care does not become dilute as a valuable thing to any one for the fact of every one having it. I mean to say that there is no deflationary or inflationary market forces that can be brought to bear on it. Health to one person has the same value as to another no matter how many have it. This is untrue of almost every other single market entity because of the fungible nature of the items of the various transactions.

          All commodities are fungible because they can be passed from hand to hand. Health can not.


          I am thinking that the non fungible character if health care is the determinative element.

          The health care system is the companies entities and persons that produce all the goods and services that are part of the final deliverable product. These players are transacting in fungible items. They buy and sell a thing that once exchanged are gone for good and can not return except by another market transaction event. Once health is transferred it can not be re-transferred. It's value it entirely personal. If the personality who obtained it is killed it dies with him ( unlike all his property). ERGO: The recipient is not made wealthier to the detriment of others.
  • Re: The right of the people

    Fri, October 3, 2008 - 10:10 AM
    This remains a bit of a quandary. On the one hand I am adamantly opposed to putting people in a welfare line accepting handouts from the state. That strips dignity from the people, deprives them of upward mobility and makes the state all powerful.

    If people depend i on the state for their health care is this not the same thing?

    If the state is responsible for health care will not the welfare of the people at the most fundamental level be subject to the whims of the police power of the state?
    The state will be positioned to decide based on some arbitrary actuarial figure whether you should be encouraged to live or let to die.
    Won't the state be in the business of making decisions about the worth of the individual life?
    If you are not worth the cost to keep you alive should you be let to die?

    Possibly the best argument against federalizing health care is same best argument against giving the government too much power over anything. The State wanted to tap our phones. How much easier would that have been had the state run the telecoms?

    Our medical records would be available to all police everywhere ( it wouldn't start out that way but given time)
    Medical privacy would be unlikely
    Choices about health care would fall to a bureaucracy
    Physician quality might suffer.

    • Re: The right of the people

      Fri, October 3, 2008 - 10:23 AM
      Why not get rid of the insurance industry, as it stands today, since they are mainly responsible for driving up basic health costs?
      • Re: The right of the people

        Sat, October 4, 2008 - 2:16 PM
        Insurance tends to affect only specific areas of the medical practice. It's worse in some states than others too.
        • Re: The right of the people

          Sat, October 4, 2008 - 2:30 PM
          In PA I have noticed it effects pretty much everything from basic tests and doctor visits, to the cost of an MRI. Interesting enough, most independent facilities have an off the book program where they will discount your costs if not paying with insurance. The discount always seems to be 75-80%
          • Re: The right of the people

            Sun, October 5, 2008 - 8:44 AM
            My wife's onkgyno surgeon left Fox Chase for CA and I believe liabilities and costs were part of the reason.
            However it might not have hurt that CA has better weather and he was an avid Yacht owner
    • Re: The right of the people

      Wed, October 22, 2008 - 7:55 AM
      I'm thinking that there might be a realistic way to legislate the government out of access to health care information as well as to insulate the recipients from being placed at the mercy of some bureaucrat who has to tally up the sums and decide who lives or dies based on numbers.

      If all decisions were subject to the patient's Physician approval and the state's involvement in the decision tree had to arise as a challenge and was only addressable by a panel of physicians not connected to the state or the patient it might work to insulate the patient from bureaucratic caprice.

      If the 4th Amendment were amended to include medical records that would solve for privacy. Even if the state peeked the information wouldn't be admissible. It's not a perfect solution since the state peeks all the time where it must by law obtain a warrant but, it'd be better than nothing. Currently people have little expectation of privacy in medical records. Any insurance company can demand of your physician that he surrender your records to them. And the Doctors do it right away. Your medical records are subject to subpoena any time there is a rational relation to a trial whether civil or criminal.
      • Re: The right of the people

        Wed, October 22, 2008 - 1:41 PM
        there's hope for you yet, Cliff.

        my view is that chidren should have free health care but that universal service should be required at completion of secondary school. after completion of service, adults get essentially free health care as part of a comprehensive public health care system. . .with services for the individual coming from a single payer system with a small co-pay per visit/perscription.

        ensuring the public health increases the general productivity and happiness of the society. the greatest causes of bankruptcy AND of lowered worker productivity is illness, injury and disability.

        and funding for the program should come from the general fund, not from any additional taxes on businesses, the latter of which decreases the competitiveness of american companies in the international arena.
        • Re: The right of the people

          Wed, October 22, 2008 - 3:25 PM
          IF the current weltenschaung [sp?] survives, THEN your worries about health information make some sense. EITHER, we move toward a world that recognizes that our genetic code is like the color of our skin, and shouldn't matter before the law or, if it does, should assist us given our obvious historically induced prejudices; OR, we descend into a less civilized "Dark Ages" wherein our advances toward "a more perfect" civilization fall towards the past . . . and how far deep into the past it descends depends on our collective energy . . .
  • Re: The right of the people

    Wed, October 22, 2008 - 3:13 PM
    This is the Great Document that *should* send a rational fear and trembling through any thinking person in the federal government and especially the President, Congress, and the Supreme Court. Just say'n. [Gawd help the world that awakes to its meaning! --- we'll need more than randomness to keep us from a new "dark ages"!]
    • Re: The right of the people

      Wed, October 22, 2008 - 5:12 PM
      I really do get all misty when I read this as well as the first Ten Amendments to the Constitution. It is so powerful and profound.

      Especially powerful are the cruelties they tolerated for so long from the British Crown. The list of grievances are listed in the Declaration. They are well worth reading.

      When I read about the men and women who founded this country what they suffered the privation they endured and the horrid fates they accepted to make us free, I can quite literally choke up.


      Some facts about our Founding Fathers:

      The Declaration of Independence was signed by fifty-six brave souls.

      The most famous were Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, and John Adams. But the story is far, far greater.

      Of the original 56 signers 11 were Merchants, 9 were Farmers, 24 were Attorneys or Judges.
      Nine died from combat in the Revolutionary War while the British captured and tortured five to death. The British sacked and burned of the colonials in doing so they burnt the homes of Eighteen of the Founding Fathers ransacking the properties and raping the women they found.

      These were Humans their families were Humans. They all too often paid terribly for their love of this land and the freedoms they created for us today.


      NEW YORK:
      William Floyd fled the British living with his family as refugees in the wilderness where his wife died.

      Lewis Morris’ home was destroyed and plundered by the British they burnt his land and butchered his livestock and caused his family to flee into the wild.

      Francis Lewis lost his home and estate in raids and pillaginf by the British. The British imprisoned, tortured and raped his wife. Her treatment was so terrible that she dies almost immediately after release. Lewis died a pauper.

      VIRGINIA:
      Carter Braxton dies a pauper after he lost his shipping empire when the British seized it.

      Thomas Nelson Jr. bankrupted himself to the tune of 2 million dollars, which he personally borrowed to support the revolution. The British general Cornwallis seized and occupied Nelson’s home during the pivotal battle of Yorktown. Nelson’s grave is unmarked to this day.

      SOUTH CAROLINA
      Edward Rutledge; Thomas Heyward Jr; and Arthur Middleton had their homes destroyed and pillaged before in 1780 they were captured by the British during the battle of Charlestown.

      RHODE ISLAND
      William Ellery’s home was burnt and pillaged when Newport was taken by the British.

      NEW JERSEY
      Supreme Court Justice Richard Stockton was imprisoned when tories ( traitors to the revolution) reported him to the British. In the British prison he was tortured and starved.. His entire estate and lands were seized and destroyed. Justice Stockton’s family lived on the public weal and kindness of strangers until they died. . In the British assault on New York, Francis Lewis's home and property were pillaged. His wife was captured and imprisoned; so harshly was she treated that she died soon after her release. Lewis spent the remainder of his days in relative poverty.

      John Hart at age 65 was forced to abandon his dying wife. He was forced to flee the British in the winter of 1776 hiding in the wilderness. He had Thirteen children who were also chased into oblivion by the British. No one ever learned what became of them. put to flight. After the war Mrs. Hart was dead, the children were never found he was landless and pennyless dying a broken man.


      PENNSYLVANIA
      Thomas McKeam an Irish Immigrant was so despised by the british that they caused him to move his domicile with constant frequency. He died a pauper


      Lesser known Signers: Dillery (many say it is Ellery), Hall, Clymer, George Walton, Gwinnett, Thomas Heyward Jr., Edward Rutledge, and Arthur Middleton were pauperized by British atrocities.

      Others still:
      George Wythe; William Whipple; Joseph Bartlett; Thomas Lynch; Benjamin Harrison; Richard Henry Lee; George Clinton; William Paca; Samuel Chase; L. Morris; William Floyd; Charles Carroll of Carrollton; Robert Morris; T. Willing; Benjamin Rush; Elbridge Gerry; Robert Treat Paine; William Hooper; Stephen Hopkins; William Ellery; George Clymer; Joseph Hewes.; Jason Wilson; Abraham Clark; Francis Hopkinson; Roger Sherman; Robert R. Livingston; John Witherspoon; Samuel Huntington; William Williams; Oliver Wolcott; Chas. Thomson; George Read; John Dickinson; Philip Livingston.

      These brave souls began the great dream that is called the United States of America.
      • Re: The right of the people

        Wed, October 22, 2008 - 6:39 PM
        these are hardly different than the privations suffered in Darfur, Myanmar, Tibet, Congo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and elsewhere by human beings today . . . that they created a new nation and civilization remains largely the circumstance of history, geography, and time . . . their achievements did not prevent the genocide of the natives in the land they took from them, nor the abolition of slavery which continues today especially in the muslim world . . . the migrations set in motion by WWII are resulting in a remarkable change world wide . . . whether Obama is or is not the leader to show the way remains to be seen . . . but I am glad to see a "third culture kid" -- a product of those migrations --- reach toward those heights . . . I am astonished to see it happen, in my lifetime, in the product of an african-eurpean marriage! I would have expected, instead, an asian-european, but history is full of irony . . . immigrants, to my knowledge, have so succeeded in modern times only in France and the USA . . . in the past the immigrants, Disreali in the UK being exceptional, were the conquerers . . .
        • Re: The right of the people

          Fri, October 24, 2008 - 10:43 AM
          ***************these are hardly different than the privations suffered in Darfur, Myanmar, Tibet, Congo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and elsewhere by human beings today*************

          Oh I disagree. these privations and hardships were suffered by the men and women who made me a free man who made my children free and made all of our lives as we know them in the USA possible. Therein is all the difference in the world.
          • Re: The right of the people

            Wed, August 5, 2009 - 6:36 PM
            communist! cliff is a communist!
            • Re: The right of the people

              Thu, August 6, 2009 - 7:43 AM
              Yeah, I feel the same way Cliff. . .a great leap forward for humankind that required a lot of sacrifice. Thanks for mentioning those sacrifices in the other tribe.
            • Re: The right of the people

              Thu, August 6, 2009 - 8:07 AM
              *********communist! cliff is a communist! ****************

              And a Chinese Transsexual too

              ******Yeah, I feel the same way Cliff. . .a great leap forward for humankind that required a lot of sacrifice.***************

              It's amazing what those people did. They had more dedication, purpose, and courage in their fingernail trimmings than 90% of the people alive today in their whole bodies.

              **********Thanks for mentioning those sacrifices in the other tribe.****************

              Do you think it's just more pearls before swine?
              • Re: The right of the people

                Thu, August 6, 2009 - 11:59 PM
                no. . .t is worth mentioning the important parts of history.

                it is a tragedy that the modern world is so fucked up. . .but what to do?

                In my opinion it started in the 50s, mostly a product of television, urbanization, and the change in people's diets.
                • Re: The right of the people

                  Fri, August 7, 2009 - 9:32 AM
                  Materialism has a strangle hold on the country almost as horrible and lethal as the Social Commies
                  The nuclear family dies and has been replaced by multiple cars multiple jobs and no parenting
                  So the kids are raised by each other and trained by fucking communists in the public schools.

                  And every one wants a better car and TV.

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