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In all the world's history when ever socialism or Communism has been implemented the result has been despotism, corruption, tyranny, stagnation and deliberate oppression of the underclasses, and crushing grinding poverty, ignorance and squalor.
There has never been one example of a nation that turned to Socialism or Communism that did not result in such conditions.
So please explain to me the details of why you think it will work out differently this time.
There has never been one example of a nation that turned to Socialism or Communism that did not result in such conditions.
So please explain to me the details of why you think it will work out differently this time.
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 7:01 PM>> So please explain to me the details of why you think it will work out differently this time. <<
it appeals to a sense of fairness. people that don't know anything give into the excuses that some external force is the reason people use drugs and don't do as well as others in school. you just have to experience it for yourself sometimes. and as things get cushier, we get insulated from these hard lessons and the appeal grows. -
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 7:14 PMThat's the angle that says that people lose touch with reality the more their cushy lifestyle supports the disconnect.
OK fine but I want one of them to tell me why they think it'll work this time around. -
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 10:17 PM>> OK fine but I want one of them to tell me why they think it'll work this time around. <<
do you really expect an answer? 10 to 1 you'll just get the same old Bush was the anti-christ answer we've all grown to love. -
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 5:46 AMOne can hope. -
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 11:30 AMi don't have any reasons why it would be any better or worse, no one can predict the future and in any event i am not optimistic about the future. . .
on the otherhand it should be noted that what you mean by socialism and what i mean by socialism is not the same. you mean total state control while i see things as a pyramid:
citizen involvement + market economy + government resources
but the quality of americans has diminished, we need to work on strengthening our culture more than anything.
when americans are tougher, smarter and better educated/informed then we can go back to the drawing board. .
but how can that happen? not through our usual institutions. i am becoming less of a democrat ( small "d" if you call me a Democrat I will kick you in the butt ) -
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 11:32 AMtriangle is a better term than pyramid. triangles are the strongest structures, or regular tetrahedron, if you will. . .
democratic structuralism in a word, but again. . .i don't think americans are ready for democracy. our culture is getting weaker by the minute. we need to make it robust again. . -
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 1:22 PM****i don't have any reasons why it would be any better or worse, no one can predict the future and in any event i am not optimistic about the future. . .*************
Well Humans have only one way to predict the future. That is to examine the past. If every time I promise that I'll hold the ball for you and every damn time I yank it out, sending you tumbling you can pretty much bet that the next time ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
********on the otherhand it should be noted that what you mean by socialism and what i mean by socialism is not the same. you mean total state control while i see things as a pyramid:
citizen involvement + market economy + government resources***************
Well Lorenzo, there are other factors which must be contemplated.
One (& I think it is the dead elephant in the room) is the fact that Government - - - all governments in all history - - - - have always trended toward increasing their power and control. It's the very evil that our founders were so careful to guard against in drafting a Constitution that limited government, restricts it's powe, and placed enormous power in the hands of the people. And since Day One Every political party has diligently set about to disassemble it.
This is not an inconsequential issue.
Socialistic forms of government along with their sibling: Communism, had all proved to place an inordinate amount of power in the hands of government. Those governments did what all governments have always done: Grow more powerful. Eventually the government and its thirst for never ending amounts of power and control always end up crushing the whole system. It's the people who suffer.
So, I should think that you might give some thought to how you can control government.
**************but the quality of americans has diminished, we need to work on strengthening our culture more than anything.************
I'd think that taking back control from government and limiting government and re - empowering the people might be a first step.
***********when americans are tougher, smarter and better educated/informed then we can go back to the drawing board. .**********
Well you don't get tough smart people by coddling them
Look at the hard luck cases that make it here from the hellholes of the world. They pretty much prove to be indomitable forces of self promotion and success.
************but how can that happen? not through our usual institutions. i am becoming less of a democrat ( small "d" if you call me a Democrat I will kick you in the butt )**********
The usual institutions are all about creating a safe environment and eliminating challenges. . People are attracted to warmth and comfort. Schools won't flunk you - even thought they should. Little Leagues let the cripple play even though the game is scored with a zero sum result. "Yay we all win" is a hollow and pointless victory cry. Nothing in human nature can make sense of it.
Maybe if we limited government. Government should not be in the position of seeking out social justice results. the whole idea of social justice is the elimination of failure subsequent to one's inability to compete. "Yay we all win" strips all value from the effort.
Why should I care enough to do a thing well if I know that you are going to take what I earned and hand it to some one who did not earn it?
Humans absolutely need hardship. It is part of what it is to be human.
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 6:45 PMno pain no gain? i agree. . .people need challenges, they need to struggle and strive, they need to overcome. but they don't need to be sick, stupid, cheated, polsoned and lied to. that is what they get in this society.
the reason why i am a democratic structuralist is that i believe that it is possible to structure situations for successful outcomes. smart people do it all the time. it is a matter of effective designs. the founders were brilliant in designing the constitution, but things have changed. . .thus we deteriorate.
as i have said before i am a nationalist. . .a passionate nationalist. . .and i want the US to be the best at everything. The best educated, the best health, the best athletes, the best military, the best peacemakers, the riches and the most talented. . .this is not a joke.
we aren't any more. we are slipping badly and it is going to get worse.
Things can be designed for success. I agree that we shouldn't pamper people, but we can devise more effective social solutions than what we have presently which is pathetic. Just about everything in the country has fallen badly. And it is getting damned time to do something about it.
All the failures in our system pull us down as a whole. The greater the gulf the greater the misery. And we will all pay for it. -
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Sun, November 15, 2009 - 9:52 AM**************the reason why i am a democratic structuralist***************
As an aside. It is against my personal philosophy to "be" anything. Like Bruce Lee I think that having a style, a form, an ideology will always result with the adherent being locked in an untenable position with only two possible outcomes: (1) Arguing stupidly against what is right; or (2) abandoning the ideology .
******* is that i believe that it is possible to structure situations for successful outcomes.************
Yah, sounds great. What do you do when the opponents (and there are always opponents) don't work to your game plan and are every bit as smart as you? Were does the "structure " help when you are being dragged off course?
**********smart people do it all the time.**************
They try, is I think the better expression. Sometimes they succeed most the time, they do not.
********** it is a matter of effective designs. the founders were brilliant in designing the constitution, but things have changed. . .thus we deteriorate.*********
The only thing that changed Lorenzo, is that people developed agenda issues that they believe supercede the value of the Constitution and the freedoms it guarantees. Mind you the most prominent and frequent agenda item is power.
If you take the whole demand for power out of the equation you can usually get the supporting cast of agenda items done rather easily.
Which is to say Lorenzo, you can feed the hungry without placing a gun at my head - without abrogating the Constitution and imposing forced servitude upon me.
********as i have said before i am a nationalist. . .a passionate nationalist. . .and i want the US to be the best at everything. The best educated, the best health, the best athletes, the best military, the best peacemakers, the riches and the most talented. . .this is not a joke.*********
Well then you may have to make some choices.
You can't do all the things on the "to do" list and still have money and energy left over to run the soccer team.
Education is a fine and admirable thing. Maybe it is all you really need to do - so long as you take the effort and funds to do it well.
But what if the parents of the children you are educating refuse to man up and take responsibility as parents?
What do you do when daddy is just a fairly tale and mommy can't get her head turned away from the TV? No one is minding the children for whom you have built this excellent educational system so the kids are not interested. They have other priorities? And then your wonderful schools are taken over by political hacks as superintendents and principals who don't care about anything but the most superficial sort of crap that translates well into photo ops and resume stuffing?
My wife taught elementary school in such an urban system. When the Hacks too over the whole thing went to hell.
*********we aren't any more. we are slipping badly and it is going to get worse.**********
YEs and no. A lot if it depends on where you focus you eyes.
It's like one of those table top books of beautiful photos of NJ.
Yes there's lots of them and lots of beautiful pictures of beautiful abundant nature in NJ.
So long as you focus closely enough from the right angles.
I'd accuse you of focusing on the negative 'cause there's lots of which to be proud.
**********Things can be designed for success. I agree that we shouldn't pamper people, but we can devise more effective social solutions than what we have presently which is pathetic. Just about everything in the country has fallen badly. And it is getting damned time to do something about it.****************
Words words words.
Pick something dammit~!!
Seriously Lorenzo, pick a thing that you know enough about and you be the solution.
Have the courage of your own convictions.
If you are doing it on your small one man scale you will find others who like that thing, like what you are doing, and will throw in with you.
Eventually some years later you may have a statewide initiative to get that one issue addressed which might infect other states.
Your error (and it is error) is the all or nothing mentality that the House Dems have been infected by.
That's the Problem with the left today. They think that if they can just enslave everybody and fool them with chicken little horror stories of catastrophe so that they can do everything all at once. And the hell of it is that their idea of how to do it involves abrogating the Constitution and imposing upon me forced servitude. This is only because they are intellectually slothful, selfish, and power mad.
**********All the failures in our system pull us down as a whole. The greater the gulf the greater the misery. And we will all pay for it.***************
I think you are focusing too narrowly on too negative a sub set of issues.
Find a thing in all that mess you are waving your huge assed stick at. Find a thing that you are expert at ( or expert enough) and tackle it.
Forget the rest. You are not big enough tp tackle "everything" and it'll only tear your heart out.
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Sun, November 15, 2009 - 10:11 AMyou are in most ways wise, cliff. . .
( we now resume regular programming )
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Mon, November 16, 2009 - 8:34 AM*****************the reason why i am a democratic structuralist is**********************
Were not the founders "Democratic Structuralists?
I mean did they not believe in Democracy and did they not hold a firm conviction which they acted upon to frame a structure in the Constitution that was intended to provide all persons the freedom to pursue liberty and happiness on their own steam free from excess government intervention?
What could you possibly offer that is superior to what the Founders did?
Think about the manifold, enormous, and continual assaults on freedom that have run long and hard to dismantle the freedoms enshrined in the Constitution. It's been more than 200 years and the Constitution has suffered terrible assaults weathering many of them intact.
Freedoms and Rights we have lost include all manner of privacy rights, the Second Amendment is a sham, Freedom of the press is abused on every hand, Trial by jury is slowly disappearing, freedom of movement is abridged in more ways than you can imagine, Even freedom to peacefully assemble to petition the Congress has been stripped away.
And you want to join that gang of despots and slavers who want nothing more than to pack the Constitution away in a box and bury it for good?
Why Lorenzo, why?
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Mon, November 16, 2009 - 8:42 AMCliff, do you really see me as a joiner? Yes, exactly. . .the framers of the constitution were democratic structuralists in their time. They were brilliant but the world has changed somewhat since that time and we need to strengthen the constitution to address previously unforeseen problems.
The form of my philosophy should be separated from how I would implement it.
The form of my philosophy is the technology of democratic structuralism. . .in other words, structuring society for democracy. . of the people, by the people and for the people. . .we are too far removed from that.
And what I would do with that improved technology might be different than what you would do in some cases, but the improved technology of democracy would be open to both of us. . .and in the marketplace of ideas the best ideas would win.
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Mon, November 16, 2009 - 2:22 PM*********Cliff, do you really see me as a joiner?***********
Well you and I have had dialogs regarding the nasty and evil business of forcing other people to pay the way for those who won't work.
I've usually come away wondering what makes you tick. You seem willing to engage in forced servitude some of the time and some of the of the time you seem interested in personal accountability.
I think a lot if the dialog has had to do with letting people fail and reap the consequences if I recall correctly.
************ Yes, exactly. . .the framers of the constitution were democratic structuralists in their time. They were brilliant but the world has changed somewhat since that time and we need to strengthen the constitution to address previously unforeseen problems.**********
I think that we need to restore it to its former shining glory. We have whittled it away terribly.
**********The form of my philosophy should be separated from how I would implement it.***********
Very dangerous language.
Sort of like all those people who wouldn't trust George Bush with anything and are falling all over themselves to trust Stumbles with their entirely medical data base along with everything else about their private lives. They are so sure that The Dems won't misuse all that information and power. But it begs the obvious question of what they think will happen when the administration they despise gets into power?
I mean it begs that obvious question never mind the incredible near galactic stupidity of trusting the Dems or any government with all that information and power.
You say you want to have a heart plug installed in me - just in case but you won't use to to arbitrarily execute me as did the evil Baron Von Harkonnen. Whose to say you won't turn evil, make a mistake, get carried away or be replaced by a darker sort ?
Your form of governance must have all the restrictions built in ahead of time. Benevolent dictatorships are not merely fiction if they could exist they'd be an open invitation for abuse
*************The form of my philosophy is the technology of democratic structuralism. . .in other words, structuring society for democracy. . of the people, by the people and for the people. . .we are too far removed from that.***************
Too far removed for "of, for, and by the people"? I should think not.
Lorenzo you are frightening me. You sound like a dictator.
**********And what I would do with that improved technology might be different than what you would do in some cases, but the improved technology of democracy would be open to both of us. . .and in the marketplace of ideas the best ideas would win. **********
Open to all of us but, only in so far as the government is powerfully restrained.
Government is an evil. It happens to be a necessary one. Less is always more.
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Sun, November 15, 2009 - 10:35 AM>> but the quality of americans has diminished, we need to work on strengthening our culture more than anything. <<
contributing factors include waves of immigration comprising the lowest common denominator and an education system that is focused on pushing the political agenda of the moment as opposed to teaching kids math, history, english and civics. throw in working parents that leave it to children to raise themselves and a system that prevents parents from disciplining their children. -
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Sun, November 15, 2009 - 10:38 AMyep. . -
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Mon, November 16, 2009 - 7:52 AMOur schools were over run by political hacks since the early 1960s. They have become so bold that they can get away with teaching fictionalized revisionist history.
Of late this fictional revisionist history has replaced more and more the basics of what a public education should be teaching.
The rejection of this fictional revisionist propaganda is why so many parents have taken to home schooling.
And the leftist elitists have come out against the home schoolers exactly because these people have chosen to protect their kids from the lies and propaganda of the elitists who seek to remake the nation on the backs of the children by feeding them lies.
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Mon, November 16, 2009 - 1:56 PMCliff,
This is not hard, as you know Bush wanted to destroy the world and BHO wants to save it. It is intent not results that mater to these people.
This is a good one just form to day, BHO needs 71 vehicles motorcade as he travels, www.politico.com/click/sto...cles.html, and GWB needed about a dozen vehicles, www.democraticunderground.com/dis....php
Yet BHO is saving the earth and solving the energy problem, you can not ask a thief to guard your valuables.
The only law needed and they will never uphold YOU SHALL NOT STEAL! -
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Mon, November 16, 2009 - 4:42 PMI am not sure there is any point in restating or endlessly clarifying what I am saying, because we never will find a point of agreement. . .if you think that I am dictatorial with my desire to increase the democratic powers of the people through structuring the society for increased democracy, I don't know what to say. -
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Tue, November 17, 2009 - 6:49 AM***********I am not sure there is any point in restating or endlessly clarifying what I am saying, *************
You have not done either of those things.
What you have done is play coy, be anything but clear, and dance around things in such away that you never actually say what you are thinking. The thing that is endless is your unwillingness to articulate with any precision what it is that you are thinking.
You use words to deflect from your intent.
Say what you mean.
You want an all powerful government that can pretty much do whatever it wants to do when ever it wants to do it.
One that has no need to take any pesky votes or hold annoying troublesome debates.
Need more money increase taxes overnight: no need for a pesky vote.
Disagree that people should possess and carry weapons: Ban them and confiscate them over night no need for a pesky vote
Want to control water usage: Install meters on everybody's water main and install automatic shut offs for when the daily or monthly allotment is reached.
Want to change people's diet: Ration food.
Want to save money on health care: Ration medical services.
For the life of me, I can not understand how you can tell yourself that government is good and more is better.
Government has never been a good thing. It has always been a dreadful evil.
It is evil because it is the nature of government to abuse power while always gathering more .
You want a government that is the boss of you in all that you do.
I think you need to go live in some country where this is the way it is.
Singapore might be a good place for you. It's a fairly well "structured" rich enough country run by a government that is the mirror of what you propose. Go live there for a year or two. If you like it you might be better of staying rather than returning to the US with ideas that are overtly anti American.
I don't refer to you as Anti American in a derogatory sense. I say it because the ideas you have put forward are anti ( in both senses - Greek "in place of" and the Latin "against") . You wish to replace American political and governmental Culture with one of your own devising and that thing you have in your mind is unequivocally against the foundation that is America's heritage.
You talk about the times outstripping the Constitution yet you can not articulate what you mean.
I think you won't because you know that there is a valid counter for such a proposition.
You insist that you can fabricate a "structure" that would be the framework for a different better form of government yet when asked what you mean all you offer are very rare glimpses of what you mean and it always ends up being oppressive overpowering despotism.
The way you speak about this thing in your head is almost always so very oblique as to convey nothing at all other than your belief that it's better. It's like you've got a bag of goodies (so you tell your sales customer) and these goodies are going to result in wonderful things. But you won't open the bag to let the customer look at what exactly these goodies are.
Then when I cobble together sufficient concept fragments I've gleaned from your conversation and confront you with what looks to me to be pure unalloyed despotism you offer more oblique statements denials of any desire to do wrong etc.
And then when you are cornered - and you are not easy to corner - you play the coy one who says "what's the use of talking to you Cliff since you don't agree with me" or some variation on that theme.
Look Lorenzo, if what you are thinking is so terrible that you can't even discuss it except in the most obscure of terms then what makes you so sure that it is at all good.
I asked "why" as the original post and you have not done anything to answer that question. Why is what you are thinking some how better?
Not why: as in some blue sky dreamy unformed mish mash of nice sounding notions.
Might as well talk about how nice it would be to have a bag of pixie dust.
If I has a bag of pixie dust I could cure the sick, feed the foodless shoe the shoeless, house the houseless, cheer the cheerless and make everything mo' bettah.
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Re: Why will it be different this time?
Wed, November 18, 2009 - 7:18 AMSo it can't be different because it eliminates none of the elements of communism that inevitably lead to government excess and abuse of power. Such elements are inherent in all so called socialist systems.
So called because Socialism is really nothing but nascent communism. It's the seemingly innocent step taken on the road to hell.
You call it "structuralism" in an effort to rub some kind of patina of goodness onto it. But the fact is that the more power you cede to government the more unstructured it becomes. The term "Democratic" is error also, because of the same reason.
In your theoretical system you cede power over nearly everything to government and reserve too little to the people.
Fact is Lorenzo, that in all the world's history there has never been a creation of humans that is even half as good as the Constitution of the United States as drafted by the Founding Fathers.
Marx, Lenin, and Trotsky were all misguided in their foolish belief that if you give all the power to government that it will act benevolently.
They managed to miss entirely the overriding supervening fact of human nature. The American Founders did not miss that. It is why they wrote a Constitution that limited government and gave power and control to the people.
The Founders understood what happens when government is answerable to no one.
That is the fail point of the ultimate dream of the socialist. Socialism claims that it re arranges the flow of income from industry and enterprise to cause the income it generates to flow to the class whose labor produces the wealth that this class should collectively decide how it will be used for the benefit of all.
A ice enough idea except once again human nature rises to the top of the heap. Where ever there is a accumulation of money or power you will find an overabundance of the worst sorts of people trying to get control of it. The socialists simply and stupidly take all their resources and store them in one barn together. Eventually some slick manipulative ferociously competitive human or pack of humans will manage to get themselves in control of how whose resources are dolled out. That is the moment when the whole thing turns into tyranny.
It is human nature. No system of government can abrogate human nature. The best you can hope for it to limit it's capacity to over-reach
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