Well, could it?
posted by:
Jean Luc
offline Jean Luc
New York City
33 friends
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  • Dog
    Dog
    offline 26

    Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

    Thu, November 9, 2006 - 10:23 AM
    I dunno, but since suffering and poverty were most likely around before religion and have survived through hundreds if not thousands of different religions, exists where religion is banned, and generally has foundations based in the nature of life and mankind, I don't think there is necessarily a direct connection between religion and poverty/suffering.

    Or are you saying that if there was no suffering and poverty, religion would have nothing to offer? Don't have a solid answer for that either, but I'd venture a guess that yeah, it probably would exist if for no other reason than people still need a strong reason to be better than you and me. The need to be *right* is pretty powerful in a lot of folks.
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    • Jean...
      Jean Luc
      offline 33

      Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

      Thu, November 9, 2006 - 10:29 AM
      "I don't think there is necessarily a direct connection between religion and poverty/suffering. "

      Neither do I. However, I do, apparently, believe there is a correllation between religion depending on suffering and poverty.

      That suffering and poverty existed long before religion came around to exploit or feed off it doesn't mean anything. Sex existed long before MTV too, but MTV couldn't survive without sex.

      "Or are you saying that if there was no suffering and poverty, religion would have nothing to offer?"

      That too. People do look for things to make them feel superior, but the vast majority of people in a religion depend on it for solace. Without those numbers, religion wouldn't be seen as a route to influence and power. Secular power and wealth would be more than happy to fill the void for the greedy.

      Without the backing of numbers, religion's ability to provide a pulpit and power would be pretty dim.
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    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

      Thu, November 9, 2006 - 10:41 AM
      I dunno, but since suffering and poverty were most likely around before religion and have survived through hundreds if not thousands of different religions, exists where religion is banned,>>

      just because religions are banned, doesnt mean that it is still not practiced
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      • Jean...
        Jean Luc
        offline 33

        Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

        Thu, November 9, 2006 - 10:45 AM
        In fact, it probably makes it more likely. Why ban something that doesn't exist?
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        • Dog
          Dog
          offline 26

          Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

          Fri, November 10, 2006 - 12:22 PM
          Yeah, that could be. My first thought was that where it's banned it's much harder to come by, but after I thought about it, religion thrives in that kind of environment. So forget that part. Of course that whole paragraph was a result in me misreading the original post to read "can religion exist without "creating" suffering and poverty" so nevermind that first part of my post.

          Now that I know what you're talking about, I think it would and could, but on a much smaller scale. Even without the lure of solace in the present life, there's more than likely lots of people who would want that same sense of security in the hereafter. Or who simply need something to believe in for direction and guidance. How much would that be reduced by a life devoid of suffering or poverty? Probably lots. Interesting question, that...
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          • Jean...
            Jean Luc
            offline 33

            Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

            Fri, November 10, 2006 - 12:26 PM
            I think, much like an unemployment office, without a need to support it, most people wouldn't choose to keep it around.

            Given enough time, most people would start to wonder who are these folks who claim that god is speaking through THEM if everyone is supposed to be equal in the eyes of god.

            And in a society where things would theoretically be equal in terms of access to necessities, the focus on remaining inequalities would get pretty sharp.

            Of course, that's already happened in one way, the rise of megachurches came after "televangelists" realized "Hey, I could do that too and no one could say anything about it!"

            I sometimes still give a thought to making my own church and finding me a flock.
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            • Dog
              Dog
              offline 26

              Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

              Fri, November 10, 2006 - 3:05 PM
              "Given enough time, most people would start to wonder who are these folks who claim that god is speaking through THEM if everyone is supposed to be equal in the eyes of god. "

              I can't figure out why more people don't see that NOW. Of course, depending on who you talk to, we may not all be equal in the eyes of God. Ya know, favored tribes if Isreal, chosen people, true descendents and all that...
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

    Fri, March 16, 2007 - 12:23 AM
    Of course it could...people from time in memorial (sp??) have been expecting/looking or an explaination for the thing that hapen in their lives form day to day...it could be God(ess) but it could also be pure coincidence....Fate or any of the multiple myriad of gods (roman, greek, celtic...u decide) that we pledge alliegience to. Religion comes down to faith - either you have it or you don"t. You can say you have it until your blue in the face but (especially if you're catholic) at the tim of reckoning the truth will be found..,...not that I agree iwth all of that but apparently that the way of things :)
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    • Myriad
      Myriad
      offline 103

      Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

      Fri, March 16, 2007 - 3:20 AM
      OK, that's interesting, now could you make a coherent argument for why religion would exist without suffering and poverty? Maybe a few salient points would help me grasp what you're trying to say.
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      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

        Fri, March 16, 2007 - 10:10 AM
        "Of course it could...people from time in memorial (sp??) have been expecting/looking or an explaination for the thing that hapen in their lives form day to day"

        what? you dont think there was suffering and poverty when humans first appeared?
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      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

        Sun, March 18, 2007 - 4:38 PM
        alrighty - I guess attention deficite breeds inarticulation with me.....
        I guess what I was trying to say was that the question assumes that religion is a product of poverty and suffering when I don't believe that it is as simple as all that...it could be a factor but not the underlying origin. To my way of thinking, human's have had that place inside them that is fulfilled by believing in something greater than themselves - this could come from a number of reasons....the loss of security when you take responsibility for yourself in the world and have no one to look out for you, the all important 'why are we here, where did we come from, where are we going' questions, a reaction to the inexplicable occurances of the day-to-day, a inner connection to the rhythms of the vibrations of the world around us, the terror of having children.......I could go on and on. I think that suffering and poverty are a part of all of that but aren't the fundamental reasons for religion, I guess I would like to think that something that is meant to be a gift would be founded from such a place.....doesn't seem to balance up in my mind or my gut I suppose.
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        • Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

          Tue, March 20, 2007 - 12:50 PM

          I don't get your point. are you suggesting that religion preys on the poor? well then what about the scientologists? they seem to have a fairly affluent following. and of course, there are some very wealthy mormons and jews. I think people instinctively need to affiliate themselves with something larger than themselves. it is part of the socialization process that facilitates working towards a common goal. it makes sense that a common set of rules is a good first step in this process and what better than religion?

          anyway, it seems that some of us see ending religion as a magic bullet against ignorance, intolerance and suffering. my hunch is that even if you succeed, you'll just end up replacing one dogmatic, intrusive institution with another.
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          • endless
            endless
            offline 44

            Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

            Tue, March 20, 2007 - 3:37 PM
            We can actually agree.
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            • Coach
              Coach
              online 87

              Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

              Fri, March 30, 2007 - 8:28 PM
              The most dangerous people are more times then not the ones who think they walk the earth with gods warrant.

              Can religion survive without suffering and poverty? Ofcourse it can. Just drive by any Mega church and count the escalades in the parking lot.

              I think you can make a pretty solid argument that the people in those places have lost the meaning of the faith. Just add up the amount of money spent on the extravagance in the parking lot and ask yourself how muc h of it could have been spent on practicing what jesus said about helping the poor but as far as the institution of religionitself? It does better than anyone in good times
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              • Myriad
                Myriad
                offline 103

                Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

                Fri, March 30, 2007 - 8:50 PM
                What value those Escalades if not to firmly assert that the owners are above the poverty and pain around them? Status symbols lose their meaning if they have no corresponding lack to contrast their excess.
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                • endless
                  endless
                  offline 44

                  Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

                  Fri, March 30, 2007 - 11:25 PM
                  And that is the hypocrisy which infuriates me about churches.
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                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Coach
                    Coach
                    online 87

                    Re: Could religion exist without suffering and poverty?

                    Sat, March 31, 2007 - 12:44 PM
                    Im not sure if they are hypocrits or if they are ignorant. Just an example the christian right demands public prayer in school. If they had actually ever read the gospels they would know that God said "do not pray in public like the Pharites rather withdraw alone into your darkest chambers" I shouldnt have put tha in quotes because Im paraphrasing from memory.

                    I like to tell christians who want to display the ten comandments that the reason they cant do it in the commons is for the same reason I cant go down to their church and glue the constitution to the chest of their wooden jesus.

                    How come noone ever wants to display the sermon on the mount particularly things like oh you know bleesed are the peacemakers, the merciful shall receive mercy?
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