Cinthya.
You did not answer my question about why you were here, so I will assume that you are here because you wish to learn about Animal Rights.

Helping animals at the humane society and helping feral cat colonies is great. I have and still do help the humane society and volunteer at events to raise money for Toronto Cat Rescue and the Humane Society and WSPA , etc...(we just had a rumage sale this weekend and I was very busy with that which is actually why I was not able to respond to you right away) those organizations are good and they do help the animals and I commend you for doing all that you do for the animals.

But those are NOT Animal Rights organizations, those are Welfarist organizations. They take care of animals for human interests.

Sea World is NOT consistent with animal RIGHTS. Whales, penguins and dolphins were not put on this earth to entertain spoiled children and unenlightened parents.

If we accept that Animals have Rights, then that means that we must accept that they exist for their own purposes and NOT to serve us, feed us, entertain us, clothe us, etc.

Shamu and all the other prisoners of Sea World have no basic Rights. They have no Freedom.

And I do not argue how well you take care of the mice when you catch them, what I am attempting to make you understand is that she has a RIGHT not to be captured int he first place.

the main thing to understand when speaking about Animal Rights is that how well you take care of the animal is irrelevent, the larger question is do you have the right do use the animal in that way in the first place?

If you consider that all animals have basic Rights (which we in this tribe do) then the mice exists for her own reasons, and so does "Shamu" (sic)...neither were put here to entertain or to accomodate you.

As for your snide remark about my home, if you read below I suggested many ways to deter mice from entering your home. Stop them from entering in the first place and you don't NEED to catch them. Protecting your "territorry" is fine...but it takes work.

I would suggest that you read Tom Regan and Gary Francione (from the website that I posted) another good ressourse is Jo Stepaniak, she wrote a wonderful book called "the Vegan Source Book" which you could find at your library or buy online...her website is: www.vegsource.com/jo/index.htm

You should also watch Earthlings. You can order that from the PETA website. That movie explains Speciesism very clearly.

in a nutshell speciesism is like racism and sexism, but descrimination based on species. Animal experimentation can only exist due to speciesm. the same is true for "animal entertainment" places who abuse elephants, lions, tigers, orcas, dolphins, penguins, etc...and just to entertain humans. The animals are beaten abused, trapped and mistreated because they serve a purpose for humans. And the ridiculous idea that they "want" to do the shows, that they are like "actors" of the animal world is probably the most speciesist attitude of all.

Hunting, horseback riding, fishing, dog and cat shows, all only exist because of speciesist attitudes.

But even if these animals were well treated, the issue of speciesism is that they have a right NOT to be used in such a way. Thier welfare is not the issue, their rights are.

The way to know if a situation is speciesist is easy: first replace the animal with a human, does it work? Second if it does still work ask yourself about consent. Has the animal given his or her consent? How can they? Would the animal CHOOSE to do this on his or her own?

I am hoping Cinthya that you are here for a reason and that you want to know more about Animal Rights. In the back of your mind you know that something is wrong. You know that if you love animals then you have to stop eating them www.meat.org , you know that if you love animals then you have to stop enslaving them: www.factoryfarming.com/galler...iry.htm
www.goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp
www.helpinganimals.com/travel...est.asp
www.peta.org/actioncente...tainment.asp

you have to stop wearing them:
www.peta.org/actioncenter/clothing.asp

and you have to stop seeing them as property. Please vist Gary Francione's site again. And if you have any questions, any questions at all please PM me. In fact it would be better for us to take this discussion about whether or not animals have rights off this tribe.

This tribe is not to discuss whether or not animals have rights. This is an ANIMAL RIGHTS tribe. I'm sure it is not your intention but in every one of your posts you make very disturbing speciesist remarks and those go against this tribe.

so let's continue this discussion privately, off this tribe...once you have visited all the links and read all the materials that I have suggested I will gladly answer any question that you may have.

Cinthya, you obviously love non-humans and if you learn about Animal Rights and do a little reading on this tribe (the description and other posts) and read the links that I posted in the body of this email...read the book that I recommended and watch the movies, you will be much happier as you realize that you are helping ALL animals not just certain ones that you consider cute, and as a professional in the field of animal health you could join the struggle towards achieving Animal Rights. We need caring people like you to understand speciesim and reject it.

And MD the comments from the peanut gallery are totally unappreciated. It's easy to criticize and a lot harder to speak for yourself...you could've sent me those comments as PM or(and here's a thought) if you don't like how I posted, you could actually post yourself...you know put some effort into it and actually write something coherent.

Contrarily to what Cinthya suggested in her last post, I am very involved with an active Animal Rights group here in Toronto and we are constantly organizing campaigns, fundraisers, etc...which keeps me quite busy, plus I am self-employed with two companies of my own and do freelance training and translating. Since I don't have a 9 to 5 I have to work very long hours to make enough money...As well I constantly volunteer in the community to help human and non-human organizations. I am quite busy but I put some time into responding to Cinthya because I feel it is important.

Cinthya cares deeply about non-human animals which is why she reacted in a knee-jerk fashion, once she learns about Animal Rights, she will become a great hero for the animals, and that will always be worth my time.

As for my own knee-jerk reaction...it stems from where this discussion is taking place: in an ANIMAL RIGHTS tribe...not a "do animals have rights? tribe"...I come to this tribe to get info about Animal Rights and points of view ON Animal Rights I don't come here to discuss IF Animal Rights should be...and it shocks and dissapoints me when people who don't understand the basics of Animal Rights post here with speciesist attitudes.

So I react because most of the world doesn't only reject speciesism they DON'T EVEN KNOW that it exists...the concept is not even one that they are AWARE of...

Imagine: it's like if you lived in a world where everyone owned human slaves and you walked up to someone and said "but this slavery is racist", and they looked at you and said "racist? what's that?" -"Well, those -insert skin tone here- have rights." and everyone would just look at you and say "rights? what are you talking about they are just -insert racial slur here-!" and they smiled, shook their heads and walked away.

Here in this tribe it clearly EXPLAINS Animal Rights in the description. So when I come here and meet that kind of attitude, I react more so then I would when I come across it in the "outside world".

(To antoine)