I'm posting this from the LJ world. Felt it is appropriate to show everyone that Apollon has many titles not just the God of Light.
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Does anyone know of any connections between Apollon and bulls? During my Dionysos Day Divinations he admonished me that I needed to pursue a stronger relationship with his brother (something that I've been getting from several different directions recently and yet every time I try to it's like I run face-first into a brick wall) and he added the curious suggestion that the bull would be the key to unlocking this for me. Problem is, the only Apollon-cattle connection I can think of is the 4th Homeric Hymn which tells the story of Hermes' theft of Apollon's cattle. Somehow I don't think that's what he meant, since that's a little too burlesque and playful for the solemnity that is apparently called for. Perhaps the bull is more metaphorical? Also, Horus has been eliminated as a possible key (I asked since I can think of several Cow-Horus connections, not least of which is Hathor, but apparently syncreticism isn't a factor in this). So, any suggestions? Something obvious I'm overlooking here? It's apparently vital since a lot of future stuff (what, exactly, I have no idea) hinges upon this relationship.
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ardaniel
2007-05-26 01:37 am (local) (link)
Wikipedia tells me that Arthur Bernard Cook, who wrote Zeus: A Study In Ancient Religion, connected minos and minotaur with the Cretans' sun god. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mino...retations) Is there something doing with Apollon on that count, maybe?

It's, uh, sun gods and bulls! Yeah! In the same sort of general geographical area!

That's what I've got, being entirely inexpert on this shit-- do the Minoans count as "syncretism" for the sake of this inquiry, or just the Egyptians?
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sannion
2007-05-26 02:05 am (local) (link)
To my knowledge, Apollon was unknown to the Minoans. They had a god Pajawon who later became equated with him, thus producing his epithet Paian, but I don't believe bulls were connected to either, aside from possibly sacrifices. And I don't know enough to assert even that: Apollon's son, for instance, was given cocks or goats, almost never bulls. Snakes are far more commonly associated with healing deities than bulls.

I don't know what's "kosher" or not as far as this is concerned. I don't even really know where to look. I wonder if the search is part of the process? I also intend to ask Apollon for guidance, through dreams, meditation, and divination. If I doscover anything, I'll probably share it. (Unless, of course, I'm forbidden to do so.)
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wire_mother
2007-05-26 04:39 am (local) (link)
in addition to sannion's discussion, Apollo was not initially a sun-god, but a god of disease and wind (Apollo Smintheus, for instance).

(also, i'd note in regard to that comment that as late as Homer, Paian and Apollo were treated as at least somewhat separate, Apollo being Trojan, Paian being Greek.)
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sannion
2007-05-26 07:59 am (local) (link)
that's the great thing about him - and all the gods, really but especially him - there's so many sides and levels, this amazing complexity, that's why they can't be reduced to a single attribute or idea.
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wire_mother
2007-05-26 10:44 am (local) (link)
i just hate seeing him constantly reduced to little more than a sun-god. so much so that i hate hearing the words in relation to him.

however, the connection to the minotaur goes through another angle: Apollo Delphinios. when Theseus comes to Athens, he goes by the temple of Delphinios and the builders mock him as looking girlish due to his long tunic and braided hair. so he unhitches his oxen and throws them higher than the temple rooftop the builders are working on. this may be connected in some way to the Oschophoria, which had a procession that was led by two youths dressed in long (feminine) tunics.

also, on his way to Krete, Theseus plunges into the water to retrieve a golden ring Minos had thrown into the sea. he is accompanied in that dive by two dolphins.

still, the bull is more commonly and closely associated with Poseidon and Dionysos. Apollo, as i understand it, is more closely associated with dolphins (and sea-monsters, actually, which might be something of a bull connection, though sea-monsters seem to be the monster which swallows, and so closer to wolves), wolves, ravens, and mice.
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alfrecht
2007-05-26 07:50 pm (local) (link)
(I finally got a hold of the original Greek poem by Bacchylides on the little "diving adventure" Theseus has, which I'll be discussing in my Echtra Nerai paper that will be in Beyond the Boundaries!)

I'm wondering if this isn't something a bit more by tangents--not that Apollon would be connected to bulls himself, but that he owns cattle, and is a "wolf-god" (i.e. a Mannerbunde patron figure), and therefore has something to do with cattle-rustling or cattle-raiding? He was at least the victim of it on the one occasion with Hermes, and there were also other cattle-raiding episodes in the Odyssey (only they were the cattle of Helios--not the same of course...and a very different story...hmm...)...

So, my suggestion is: maybe Dionysos is saying that you should be as Hermes to Apollo, and approach him (and thereby build a relationship with him) by "stealing his cattle"...whatever that means...?
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shapeshft
2007-05-26 03:59 am (local) (link)
I know of no direct references, however, a google search for "Apollo" and "bull" turned up a tantalizing bit about Bacchus being worshipped "in the shape of Apollo's bull, as at Elis" pops up in an article that I unfortunately have no access to. Perhaps you know someone with JSTOR access who could get it.

Nevertheless, it suggests that there was in fact not only a connection between Apollo and bulls, but that there was at least one bull which was distinctly "His."

I found a second reference here, which does not require a JSTOR membership:
books.google.com/books
Apparently Gods would sometimes exchange attributes.

For what it's worth, the search also turned up a few Greek coins with Apollo on one side and a bull on the other.


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sannion
2007-05-26 07:39 am (local) (link)
Thanks for googling that for me. :)

It is interesting to see how frequently the two of them are linked and even united. And I had considered that that might be what was meant i.e. Dionysos was saying I could understand something of Apollon through him. But I'm going to explore other avenues first.
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thesecondcircle
2007-05-26 06:54 pm (local) (link)
Apollon and Dionysos are like... er... struggling for image...

...the Tao -- the yin and the yang wrapping in a circle, each containing the spark of the other.

Not that Apollon and Mr. D are yin and yang. More that they are opposites that form a whole and also contain each other.

Disclaimer: my interaction with Apollon was only ever brief.
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alfrecht
2007-05-26 08:02 pm (local) (link)
As you know, I have JSTOR access through my sister, and have just downloaded the article mentioned above. Do share it with shapeshft, though! I shall e-mail it to you in a moment...
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cor_cordivm
2007-05-26 04:44 am (local) (link)
I have Attis on my mind lately, so my first thought was a taurobolium, but I kinda doubt that's what would help you.

Hm. The Apis Bull of Egypt?
Something Mithraic?

Bull as metaphor? One or the other of you should be extra manly; or not stubborn; or tell long, tricky stories; or you should buy stock for him?

Are there any bulls somehow connected with your brother, or things he has or places where he lives?

Sorry, that's all I got for now.
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sannion
2007-05-26 07:36 am (local) (link)
By brother do you mean Apollon's brother or sannion's brother? Because there's like a million bull references for Dionysos. Joey has no bulls that I'm aware of.

Apis is almost certainly out. The interpretatio graeca for him is Dionysos, not Apollon. However, I could see Mithras being relevant, though I kind of think it might be more direct than that.

At this point, unless I uncover some obscure cult of a bullish Apollon, I'm going to assume it's metaphorical.
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cor_cordivm
2007-05-26 05:39 pm (local) (link)
I meant your brother, because I read your entry after four hours of sleep and no coffee this morning. : P
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fallenkalina
2007-05-26 06:20 am (local) (link)
Maybe, its not an actual bull, but how you should approach Apollo. Be the bull, and make your way through.
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sannion
2007-05-26 07:32 am (local) (link)
Yeah, I definitely considered that as a possibility, and Dio does love the metaphors.
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zoe_me
2007-05-26 09:03 am (local) (link)
thanks to Renault I always thinkg "bull from the sea" but never mind


I wonder if this story of Argos will make you think of anything

www.theoi.com/Cult/ApollonCult2.html

what did Todd say?
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priapussy
2007-05-26 09:47 am (local) (link)
You might want to look into some Celtic sources after the Romans invaded Gaul. It is just a hunch, but I think Borvo, Bromios, and Belenus are going to be involved.
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alfrecht
2007-05-26 07:54 pm (local) (link)
I'd be interested to hear more from you on that...There is very little to connect Belenus with bulls, to my knowledge. Borvo and Bromios I don't know as much about, but Belenus doesn't have any obvious or direct connections.
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redselchie
2007-05-26 01:00 pm (local) (link)
when's Apollo's birthday?

He's not a taurus, is he? :D

why not ask Apollo?
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rin_x_x
2007-05-26 02:17 pm (local) (link)
Heh. Thats what I was thinking. Something to do with the astrological sign of Taurus.
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radiantbaby
2007-05-26 04:34 pm (local) (link)
(something that I've been getting from several different directions recently and yet every time I try to it's like I run face-first into a brick wall)

That has been my experience with Apollon as well. I have tried several times to open up a relationship with him due to my ties with his sister Artemis, but with no luck.

Good luck on this, I wish I had some advice to offer. I am very interested to see how this goes for you.
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this is probably nothing, but
cor_cordivm
2007-05-26 06:04 pm (local) (link)
From Wikipedia:

Now it happened that Androgeus, son of Minos, had been killed by the Athenians, who were jealous of the victories he had won at the Panathenaic festival. Others say he was killed at Marathon by the Cretan bull, his mother's former taurine lover, which Aegeus, king of Athens, had commanded him to slay. The common tradition is that Minos waged war to avenge the death of his son, and won. However, Catullus, in his account of the Minotaur's birth,[3] refers to another version in which Athens was "compelled by the cruel plague to pay penalties for the killing of Androgeon." In this version, the Athenians are made to ask Minos what they can do to stop a terrible plague that has come upon them, and he was thus given power to make demands of them. In either case, Minos required that seven Athenian youths and seven maidens, drawn by lots, be sent every ninth year (some accounts say every year) to be devoured by the Minotaur.

The article also says that Minos got the idea to build a labyrinth to hold the Minotaur from the oracle at Delphi; and that after Minos imprisoned Daedelus and Icarus in anger over the event and they escaped, Icarus flew too high because he hoped to catch a glimpse of Apollon's chariot.

The url is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur if you think it's worth checking out.

I was rereading your post, above, and was struck by the juxtaposition of getting directives "from several different directions" but "running into a brick wall" when you try to follow up; and the bull is the "key" -- maybe a map key? Perhaps you should walk a labyrinth while you consider how to reach Apollon.


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luciaofthegrove
2007-05-26 08:02 pm (local) (link)
While I don't having anything to do add to these great replies, I am intrigued and reading through my resources that I have to see if anything pops up. I will let you know if I find anything relavent :)
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urbanrecon
2007-05-26 09
:19 pm (local) (link)
I keep seeing a repeating pattern running within both modern and ancient Hellenism. Apollon, Dionysos, and Hermes seem to have this intimate and dynamic relationship amongst them. They keep turning up together. They've been some of the more important dieties in my life and I still haven't been able to figure it all out. Dio and Apollon shared Delphi. I can't help thinking that comes into your question somehow; especially since you received this during divination. Perhaps the bull references thusia. Perhaps it represents something you are to offer Apollon before he gives you an oracle of how to proceed. Maybe it is metaphorically Apollon's time at Delphi for you, which may or may not have something to do with divination.
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lm
2007-05-27 07:17 pm (local) (link)
Maybe it's a connection with Apollon's father Zeus, who once became a bull in order to carry off Io?