Patterns

topic posted Wed, October 21, 2009 - 12:10 PM by  offlineRothilda T.
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Has anyone observed any interesting astrological patterns between various 'heroes'/'villains'?

I got to wondering about this while browsing through the astro-databank. I noticed a few bits of chart factor repetition that caught my eye.

One was that Jeffrey Dahmer and the Marquis de Sade both had 8th House Gemini Suns (and 8th House stelliums) and Mars in 6th House Aries.

The other was that Myra Hindley and gangster Legs Diamond had Sun in Cancer/Moon in 6th House Scorpio/Gemini Rising (with their Suns, Moons, and Ascendants all conjunct each others').

I don't know how much these really stand out or signify, as it's pretty limited repetition (with only two people involved in each instance0. I'd like to spend some more time going through the databank and seeing if any significant patterns (with more examples) really do show up in the data.
posted by:
Rothilda T.
Illinois
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  • Re: Patterns

    Wed, October 21, 2009 - 12:26 PM
    I think it is well worth looking for patterns. Some might just probe to be red herrings, but ohers may not and may be well worth writing about or analysing in much greater depth.

    Legs Diamond has Neptune on his Sun/Moon midpoint, I don't know about the rest of his chart though.

    Some may disagree with me, but I wonder about how deserved Sade's reputation of villainy actually is. He did enjoy inflicting pain - I gather - on prostiures, but as far as I know, he was more artist who wrote books rather than actual committer of crimes.
    • Re: Patterns

      Wed, October 21, 2009 - 1:20 PM
      Nexus - that's a very good point. When I noticed the Dahmer/de Sade astrological overlap, that was one of the first things I thought of, but I neglected to mention in my first post. Based alone on de Sade being a sexual sadist, I wouldn't consider him a 'villain' by any means, particularly since sadists get such a bad rap and I'm completely down with consensual BDSM. But did he commit any truly harmful acts of non-consensual/abusive sadism (criminal acts, etc.?) - do you know? I, myself, don't actually know all that much about what he really did, but seems like the aristocracy got away with a lot in those days, so I wouldn't be surprised. Looks like it's research time for me... But, yes, it absolutely should be emphasized that he was more of an artist than a criminal, if that is the case. It's quite unfair to compare him to a serial killer, but I'm still interested in exploring if there's anything to the astrological connection between those guys. Regardless, he's pretty generally at least CONSIDERED infamous, whether or not he should be considered at all villainous.

      I would definitely consider Dahmer a villainous figure, as his killings were horrendous, and I doubt hardly anyone would question that. But he's a strange case - he seemed almost more curious (taking that to extremes without taking into account any ethical questions) and lonely than he seemed cruel or hateful. Obviously, there was something very sinister going on in there, though... But, again, I'm not sure about all the details - I'm speculating based on the relatively small amount I've read about him.

      That isn't what I would expect to find, though, with some overlap between their charts (assuming that it signifies anything relevant at all), as it seems that Dahmer and de Sade were coming at their acts for very different reasons (as well as their actions being very different). I suppose it does seem that curiosity was there, for both, as well as the ability to commit violence (and interest in committing violence), but de Sade's was much milder (again, and quite possibly not villainous) in expression and done for his own pleasure, while Dahmer's seemed more of a desperate impulse (with morbid and intensive follow-through) that operated in an extreme manner.

      I don't know - is there anything to their astrological connections or not so much?

      Going on a bit of a tangent, I always find that Dahmer's 8th House Taurus Venus (and, to a lesser extent, his 7th House Moon) really stands out to me. It's generally mentioned that he didn't typically seem violent or unpleasant or cruel until his soon-to-be victims/lovers tried to leave him (and/or until he got drunk). That he had to cling onto them and 'keep' them (his eating of flesh and preservation of body parts were attempts keeping the men, also) through incredibly twisted means seems like a pretty clear potential expression of that Venus placement.
      • Re: Patterns

        Wed, October 21, 2009 - 4:54 PM
        In order to make sense out of the pictures that appear through the analysis of natal charts it is very helpful to organize a very clear and concise mission statement. ie. ( dismemberment ) and cannibalism. There are a good number of these types of mental derangement examples throughout history. You will begin to see the patterns in the charts. Generally about 20 charts will reflect alot of information that will hold true throughout in a more than general way.

        In looking at the birthcharts of classic serial killers there is a very clear pattern that begins to show itself and there is definitely some clear information that can be collected about the potential for extreme violence ' over the edge ". IF you print off a few dozen of the classic serial killers you will certainly begin to see quite clearly where things begin to break down and you will get some very valuable information about seeing potentialities. Ultimately what has to be honoured is that " you cannot predict a serial killer ". They are very rare given the number of potential candidates.
        • Re: Patterns

          Thu, October 22, 2009 - 9:08 AM
          'Ultimately what has to be honoured is that " you cannot predict a serial killer ". They are very rare given the number of potential candidates.'

          That's a very good point, James, and it ties-in - astrologically, anyway - to the 'inherent villainy' thread. I would still maintain the stance that it is still not even astrologically inherent, but it does make sense that some people would have the potential ingredients for a certain kind of villainous (or heroic) behavior; not all of them would become 'good/evil' and actualize that potential as a result, but some might.

          But I am very interested in pulling up a number of charts and studying them in order to identify what sort of overlap there is and what potentialities they illuminate.
          • Re: Patterns

            Thu, October 22, 2009 - 9:30 AM
            Captain Chiron may have a few.

            I have posted oneor two already.

            BTW, some interesting reading on the topic of villainy might be via Liz Greene's book on the topic. That has the charts of a few real baddies. I think it poses more questions thn it sanwers, though.
            • Re: Patterns

              Thu, October 22, 2009 - 9:44 AM
              Hey, questions are good! I should track that book down...

              "I have posted one or two already. "

              You mean serial killer charts?
              • Re: Patterns

                Thu, October 22, 2009 - 10:15 AM
                Yes. Dr Shipman is certainly somewherehere, along with oneor two others. In thephoto album.

                And fee free to post others.

                And the charts of a few heroes of course too...

                You might be able to get the Greene book via Amazon. I suspect it will still be expensive though.
                • Re: Patterns

                  Thu, October 22, 2009 - 11:08 AM
                  I think the best and easiest way to do this kind of analysis is just to google up " list of serial killers ". There is a number of them for international lists. Go to Astrotheme and post search those names for birthtimes and then head to Astro.com and print them off. I have done this years back and did an overview but lost my main sheet where I did a break down of the data. It is very revealing. Make sure to use Lilth. I use both true and mean Lilth. I also use Eros ( 433 ).

                  What is most revealing is the Mutables. Gemini/Sag/Virgo/Pisces. This is the core of the matter.

                  The mutables are way out front by a large margin. This includes an analysis of Sun/Moon/Ascendant/nodal axis.

                  Another very clear point was the interceptions and houses invovled. Things tend to lead to the 4th/10th and 5/11. Parental and Love.

                  The bottom line is the mutability of the personalites. Sag=overamplification, Gemini=nuerosis/splitting, Virgo=obsessions/guilt/punishment, Pisces=self defeat and victimhood.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Patterns

                    Thu, October 22, 2009 - 11:33 AM
                    james -

                    I'm curious - have you noticed any particular patterns with Lilith and Eros in serial killers (or other groups you've studied)? I don't always use Lilith and Eros (even though they're pretty prominent in my own chart), so that's definitely good advice.

                    How interesting that the Mutables are so prominent! I've definitely noticed - in my small amount of research, so far, that Gemini and Sagittarius seem to stand out a lot, but I hadn't yet noticed the prominence of Virgo and Pisces. I was wondering why that was (that the Mutables tend to stand out), but the way you broke it down seems like something to keep in mind when compiling charts to look at. I wonder if the various Mutable signs, with their various qualities, tend to provide different types of motivations for violence and/or methods in any kind of consistent, patterned way.

                    Thanks for sharing your insights! It's a shame you lost your data break-down, as I'm sure that must have been fascinating.
                    • Re: Patterns

                      Thu, October 22, 2009 - 2:00 PM
                      Nothing on Lilith here, but here is something that might interest some of o from the point of view of 'looking for patterns.'

                      Very interesting article...

                      www.astrologyresearchjournal.org/a...tm
                      • Re: Patterns

                        Thu, October 22, 2009 - 2:03 PM
                        You know there are astro banks around wih lots of data on serial killers, as well as evry other kind of hero or villain.

                        Just put up the charts.

                        I think you might find a comparison between the charts of Peter Sutcliffe, Dennis Nilson and Jeffrey Dahmer quite interesting. Lots of heavy Moon/Saturn links, the former two strongly Jupiterian charts.

                        My wrist keeps seizing up and going numb and my PC is not working as well as it could either, so do..just upload charts like these if you can find them.
                        • Re: Patterns

                          Thu, October 22, 2009 - 2:09 PM
                          Nexus -

                          Damn, sorry about your wrist! Thanks a lot for linking to the article and putting up charts! I really appreciate it. That article looks fascinating and so in-depth - I can't wait to get a better look at it when I'm home from work.
                          • Re: Patterns

                            Thu, October 22, 2009 - 3:12 PM
                            I just did a quick blow through of that aritcle and it immediately focused in on the way above average of Gemini/Sagitarius. This was exactly my own finding with a group of 24 or so charts. Gemini and Sag were ahead of Virgo/Pisces. Think of Sag/Gemini as rulers of the mindful houses. Think of the potential arrogance of Jupiter/Sag/9th. Keep very much in mind the dual nature of all the mutable signs.
                            The Twins/ The two fish / Half Man and half animal/ Virgo has always been the great paradox with astrologers always trying to find a different ruler. These are definitely the harder signs to read in terms of " intent ".

                            I will look for the graph I put together from my data. I still have all the charts but somehow didn't include the results page with the charts.
                            I will look around abit and maybe I can locate it.
                            • Re: Patterns

                              Thu, October 22, 2009 - 10:19 PM
                              If anyone is still having trouble finding a bunch of charts in one place, here is a page with links to charts of serial killers: www.astro.com/astro-datab...icide_serial
                              Astrodatabank lists categories at the bottom of each profile, so other ones are easy to come by.
                              Just wondering if anyone had looked into the fact that Tropical Sagittarius (so prominent apparently in a lot of these charts) is mostly Sidereal Scorpio- might fit symbolism better. In some of my research into people with strong sign emphases in their charts the only 3 (in)famous people I could find with new moons in Sid Scorp were Lucky Luciano, Buffalo Bill and Ted Bundy!
                              • Re: Patterns

                                Fri, October 23, 2009 - 1:59 AM
                                Thanks, O'Ryan for the link you have provided here, also! I am not a siderealist myself, perhpas there s simply a twisted kind of tropical Sagittarius way of thinking that, being ruled by Jupiter, may beleive hat it can literally gert away with murder.

                                And did you notice that it is not signs per se, but sing degrees that were coming up in he study I posted? So that 24 degree Capriconr seems to be particualrly 'popular' among killers who have their Moon on their degree, don't know about other planets too.

                                Interestngly enough, another planet implicated, very similar to the Mon, was Ceres. Seems that when something badly goes wrong with he nurtunitng principle in general, it can be Bad News later on...
                                • Re: Patterns

                                  Fri, October 23, 2009 - 8:05 AM
                                  I read through the study a while ago and found it very interesting, even if the research methodology left a lot to be desired when compared to other studies. 24 degrees Tropical Cap happens to be the Sid Cap cusp for the mid 20th Century which I found interesting, as this is considered a particulary important point in the Fagan/Bradley system. Just my take on things- I'm really trying to get a grip on asteroids etc but that takes time I guess!
                                  • Re: Patterns

                                    Fri, October 23, 2009 - 2:03 PM
                                    ..any, Ryan's link will take you to the charts of the individuals I brought up earleir here, so that is really helpful now.

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