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This one doesn't pass the smell test. It doesn't have anything to do with astronomy, but you guys are the only ones I know on tribe with a solid scientific background. What do you think?
waterforlife.net.au/
posted by:
Thanos
Troy
Re: Fri, September 25, 2009 - 12:22 PM
I didn't make it past the first web page and won't commit on it without seeing a technical paper (so I really know what is being discussed).
Tap water does contain ions which means magnetic fields can have some (limited) effects on water. Also water molecules do have a dipole moment, so again magnetic fields can have limited effects on water. All that said, I still have no idea what that webpage was talking about.
jeremy
Re: Fri, September 25, 2009 - 1:23 PM
there's a Skeptic Talk tribe that I'm sure would love to rip into this.
It looks as if the company is trying to make water more "effective" and more "healthy" through magnets. Sounds very pseudo scientific to me.
eric
Re: Fri, September 25, 2009 - 1:26 PM
Peer review would be in order.
One year testing? Give it a few years on the crop production side and then try to interpret the data. I think from year to year climate varies and so your results would vary.
I like to speculate. One thing that comes to mind is how water and the soil react. If the magnetism of the water allows for better water absorption by the soil and better water retention, then that would account for better yeild.
Does it work on the water molecules themselves? We know water is affected by strong magnetic fields, what about low ones? Does it affect the water surface tension (ie interaction with air and water boundry)....etc...etc...etc.?
Many questions.
eric
Re: Fri, September 25, 2009 - 1:40 PM
Not to mention solvents. Water for agriculture has all kinds of solvents in it. From nutrients to chemicals to chlorine (perhaps), to all kinds of bio matter (viruses, pathogens, fecal matter, seeds, molds, aerobic/anaerobic, gases [carbon dioxide, oxygen, nitrogen, sulfur dioxide....etc]). So who knows what is reacting to the magnetic fields and how?
Really a good set of exhaustive experiments could answer some of the questions.
The company is obviously enthusiastic about the product and may not care about scientific peer review immediately but try to sell the product to build a reputation for it, hoping to get a return on investment.
Serge
15 Re:Fri, September 25, 2009 - 10:20 PM
Yeah, would be interesting to glance at the actual paper.
...
Dave
84 water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Sat, September 26, 2009 - 8:49 AM
Here's what I'd like to see..
What were the characteristics of these Australian farmer's water before they installed the magnets.
I would bet they had high levels of metals like sodium - probably mostly in the form of salts, and maybe even some heavier metals like lead.
Of course, then you could hypothesize that magnetic filtration would rid the water of these metals, thus helping the overall yield.
I don't doubt that small changes to the water's "hardness" can yield measurable results..
When they show you the fruits, they look quite ordinary, so whatever changes they are claiming are not earth shattering.
Secondly, water is a dipole. It stays balanced automatically through hydrogen bonding outside of the molecule, and through the natural molecular arrangement of 120 degree bonding angles, and polarity of hydrogen and oxygen atoms.
You can't make water magnetic. That's ridiculous. What you are claiming then is that you made a dipole a monopole.
What you can do, however, is create chemical changes through filtration.
JMO
Troy
Re: Sun, September 27, 2009 - 9:22 AM
"Not to mention solvents. Water for agriculture has all kinds of solvents in it."
Just a vocab correction: Water is a solvent, things dissolved in a solvent are solutes.
Troy
Re: water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Sun, September 27, 2009 - 9:45 AM
"Secondly, water is a dipole. It stays balanced automatically through hydrogen bonding outside of the molecule, and through the natural molecular arrangement of 120 degree bonding angles, and polarity of hydrogen and oxygen atoms.
You can't make water magnetic. That's ridiculous. What you are claiming then is that you made a dipole a monopole. "
Things with an electric dipole, like water, do interact with magnetic fields - the strength of the interaction is dependent on the velocity of the dipole through the magnetic field (for liquid water this part can be ignored, for it travels much slower then the speed of light) and the rate which the dipole changes (either internally or through rotations and vibrations). Overall, for pure water the effects would be small, more theoretical then practical.
For filtration to work, the forces on the materials to be removed must be greater than those that would keep them in solution. In this case the effects of the magnetic field must be greater than those caused by Brownian motion. Basically, that rules out removing ions in the water (ions come in sets of balanced charges, IE for every positive charge there is a negative one, and positive charges move in the opposite direction of negative one in a magnetic field). To remove ions from water, one either ends to evaporate the water, pass the water through both acidic and basic ion exchange resins or use an electric field. The first and last option are both very expensive and the middle one is what is used in home water filtration/deionizers these days.
Thanos
Re: water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Mon, September 28, 2009 - 3:06 PM
Oh yeah, heh, I forgot these:
www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/...ion.htm
www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/...ion.htm
www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/...ing.htm
www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/...rap.htm
Troy
Re: water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Mon, September 28, 2009 - 3:16 PM
Ok, now I can say manure.
Troy
Re: water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Mon, September 28, 2009 - 4:40 PM
Sarcasm, the art lost on the masses :)
Dave
84 Re: water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Mon, September 28, 2009 - 4:57 PM
>>For filtration to work, the forces on the materials to be removed must be greater than those that would keep them in solution. In this case the effects of the magnetic field must be greater than those caused by Brownian motion. Basically, that rules out removing ions in the water (ions come in sets of balanced charges, IE for every positive charge there is a negative one, and positive charges move in the opposite direction of negative one in a magnetic field). To remove ions from water, one either ends to evaporate the water, pass the water through both acidic and basic ion exchange resins or use an electric field.<<
Good point! I really doubt that you'd be pulling any ions out of solution! Even with "super" magnets! The only thing you'd be removing are magnetic suspensions with the magnets...
Serge
15 Re:Mon, September 28, 2009 - 7:11 PM
I just did the arxiv.org search, and it didn't show anything from the guy, what-so-ever.
See for yourselves - arxiv.org/find/all/1/al.../0/1/0/all/0/1
jon
23 Re: water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Thu, October 1, 2009 - 2:35 PM
thx
Serge
15 Re:Thu, October 1, 2009 - 2:43 PM
in response to: Re:
More search results: arxiv.org/find/all/1/al.../0/1/0/all/0/1
Thanos
32 Re:Fri, October 2, 2009 - 6:29 AM
The water purveyors' reply:
Consider the possibilty that your scientist friends don't know eveything there is to know about physics and especially about fields."
Maybe not, but they know enough, heh heh.
Serge
Re:Fri, October 2, 2009 - 6:23 PM
Well, they are not wrong, I would say. They are not entirely correct, however, not all that wrong either.
What we are basing our replies on, is what we have learned at school, to some particular extent - which is the standard knowledge. Yet, none of us is in that particular field of Physics, (maybe with the exception of Jon) . Therefore, we do not know ALL the stuff, especially that which has not been published yet, (including the classified one).
Curry
Re: Fri, October 2, 2009 - 8:33 PM
This idea has been around since at least 1990 as stated in the link.
If it had any merit, it would have been big news long before now.
Serge
Re:Sat, October 3, 2009 - 12:10 PM
Granted,
However, you forget about one thing, Curry. There might be someone who wouldn't be happy if this went out public, (think about not the technology but the money they would lose because of it). Hence, as anything else democratically "undesired", what do you get? - Yep, the onslaught of slander, and libel; at times so sick and atrocious that even standing in a shower for 11 hours straight does not help, and one wants to quietly walk into a room, turn off the light, and silently hang up, because a good soul cannot absorb this extent of filth and vileness.
Further, in the article, (one of the), they show some significant control over magnetic field(s), as well as ability to generate an exceptional strength of it, and other phenomena.
Now, you do understand that control over such a powerful force would be of an intense interest of certain services, agencies, and countries. Hence, plenty of interests, wouldn't want the rest to get their hands on it, until they themslelves get a good handle of it, (read, (again), torrents of lies, slander, and defamation).
...
Poor bastard thinks he is helping the world, but in reality helps scum become stronger and stronger...
waterforlife.net.au/
posted by:
Thanos
Troy
Re: Fri, September 25, 2009 - 12:22 PM
I didn't make it past the first web page and won't commit on it without seeing a technical paper (so I really know what is being discussed).
Tap water does contain ions which means magnetic fields can have some (limited) effects on water. Also water molecules do have a dipole moment, so again magnetic fields can have limited effects on water. All that said, I still have no idea what that webpage was talking about.
jeremy
Re: Fri, September 25, 2009 - 1:23 PM
there's a Skeptic Talk tribe that I'm sure would love to rip into this.
It looks as if the company is trying to make water more "effective" and more "healthy" through magnets. Sounds very pseudo scientific to me.
eric
Re: Fri, September 25, 2009 - 1:26 PM
Peer review would be in order.
One year testing? Give it a few years on the crop production side and then try to interpret the data. I think from year to year climate varies and so your results would vary.
I like to speculate. One thing that comes to mind is how water and the soil react. If the magnetism of the water allows for better water absorption by the soil and better water retention, then that would account for better yeild.
Does it work on the water molecules themselves? We know water is affected by strong magnetic fields, what about low ones? Does it affect the water surface tension (ie interaction with air and water boundry)....etc...etc...etc.?
Many questions.
eric
Re: Fri, September 25, 2009 - 1:40 PM
Not to mention solvents. Water for agriculture has all kinds of solvents in it. From nutrients to chemicals to chlorine (perhaps), to all kinds of bio matter (viruses, pathogens, fecal matter, seeds, molds, aerobic/anaerobic, gases [carbon dioxide, oxygen, nitrogen, sulfur dioxide....etc]). So who knows what is reacting to the magnetic fields and how?
Really a good set of exhaustive experiments could answer some of the questions.
The company is obviously enthusiastic about the product and may not care about scientific peer review immediately but try to sell the product to build a reputation for it, hoping to get a return on investment.
Serge
15 Re:Fri, September 25, 2009 - 10:20 PM
Yeah, would be interesting to glance at the actual paper.
...
Dave
84 water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Sat, September 26, 2009 - 8:49 AM
Here's what I'd like to see..
What were the characteristics of these Australian farmer's water before they installed the magnets.
I would bet they had high levels of metals like sodium - probably mostly in the form of salts, and maybe even some heavier metals like lead.
Of course, then you could hypothesize that magnetic filtration would rid the water of these metals, thus helping the overall yield.
I don't doubt that small changes to the water's "hardness" can yield measurable results..
When they show you the fruits, they look quite ordinary, so whatever changes they are claiming are not earth shattering.
Secondly, water is a dipole. It stays balanced automatically through hydrogen bonding outside of the molecule, and through the natural molecular arrangement of 120 degree bonding angles, and polarity of hydrogen and oxygen atoms.
You can't make water magnetic. That's ridiculous. What you are claiming then is that you made a dipole a monopole.
What you can do, however, is create chemical changes through filtration.
JMO
Troy
Re: Sun, September 27, 2009 - 9:22 AM
"Not to mention solvents. Water for agriculture has all kinds of solvents in it."
Just a vocab correction: Water is a solvent, things dissolved in a solvent are solutes.
Troy
Re: water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Sun, September 27, 2009 - 9:45 AM
"Secondly, water is a dipole. It stays balanced automatically through hydrogen bonding outside of the molecule, and through the natural molecular arrangement of 120 degree bonding angles, and polarity of hydrogen and oxygen atoms.
You can't make water magnetic. That's ridiculous. What you are claiming then is that you made a dipole a monopole. "
Things with an electric dipole, like water, do interact with magnetic fields - the strength of the interaction is dependent on the velocity of the dipole through the magnetic field (for liquid water this part can be ignored, for it travels much slower then the speed of light) and the rate which the dipole changes (either internally or through rotations and vibrations). Overall, for pure water the effects would be small, more theoretical then practical.
For filtration to work, the forces on the materials to be removed must be greater than those that would keep them in solution. In this case the effects of the magnetic field must be greater than those caused by Brownian motion. Basically, that rules out removing ions in the water (ions come in sets of balanced charges, IE for every positive charge there is a negative one, and positive charges move in the opposite direction of negative one in a magnetic field). To remove ions from water, one either ends to evaporate the water, pass the water through both acidic and basic ion exchange resins or use an electric field. The first and last option are both very expensive and the middle one is what is used in home water filtration/deionizers these days.
Thanos
Re: water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Mon, September 28, 2009 - 3:06 PM
Oh yeah, heh, I forgot these:
www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/...ion.htm
www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/...ion.htm
www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/...ing.htm
www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/...rap.htm
Troy
Re: water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Mon, September 28, 2009 - 3:16 PM
Ok, now I can say manure.
Troy
Re: water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Mon, September 28, 2009 - 4:40 PM
Sarcasm, the art lost on the masses :)
Dave
84 Re: water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Mon, September 28, 2009 - 4:57 PM
>>For filtration to work, the forces on the materials to be removed must be greater than those that would keep them in solution. In this case the effects of the magnetic field must be greater than those caused by Brownian motion. Basically, that rules out removing ions in the water (ions come in sets of balanced charges, IE for every positive charge there is a negative one, and positive charges move in the opposite direction of negative one in a magnetic field). To remove ions from water, one either ends to evaporate the water, pass the water through both acidic and basic ion exchange resins or use an electric field.<<
Good point! I really doubt that you'd be pulling any ions out of solution! Even with "super" magnets! The only thing you'd be removing are magnetic suspensions with the magnets...
Serge
15 Re:Mon, September 28, 2009 - 7:11 PM
I just did the arxiv.org search, and it didn't show anything from the guy, what-so-ever.
See for yourselves - arxiv.org/find/all/1/al.../0/1/0/all/0/1
jon
23 Re: water is a dipole, so you can't make it magnetic,, but.....Thu, October 1, 2009 - 2:35 PM
thx
Serge
15 Re:Thu, October 1, 2009 - 2:43 PM
in response to: Re:
More search results: arxiv.org/find/all/1/al.../0/1/0/all/0/1
Thanos
32 Re:Fri, October 2, 2009 - 6:29 AM
The water purveyors' reply:
Consider the possibilty that your scientist friends don't know eveything there is to know about physics and especially about fields."
Maybe not, but they know enough, heh heh.
Serge
Re:Fri, October 2, 2009 - 6:23 PM
Well, they are not wrong, I would say. They are not entirely correct, however, not all that wrong either.
What we are basing our replies on, is what we have learned at school, to some particular extent - which is the standard knowledge. Yet, none of us is in that particular field of Physics, (maybe with the exception of Jon) . Therefore, we do not know ALL the stuff, especially that which has not been published yet, (including the classified one).
Curry
Re: Fri, October 2, 2009 - 8:33 PM
This idea has been around since at least 1990 as stated in the link.
If it had any merit, it would have been big news long before now.
Serge
Re:Sat, October 3, 2009 - 12:10 PM
Granted,
However, you forget about one thing, Curry. There might be someone who wouldn't be happy if this went out public, (think about not the technology but the money they would lose because of it). Hence, as anything else democratically "undesired", what do you get? - Yep, the onslaught of slander, and libel; at times so sick and atrocious that even standing in a shower for 11 hours straight does not help, and one wants to quietly walk into a room, turn off the light, and silently hang up, because a good soul cannot absorb this extent of filth and vileness.
Further, in the article, (one of the), they show some significant control over magnetic field(s), as well as ability to generate an exceptional strength of it, and other phenomena.
Now, you do understand that control over such a powerful force would be of an intense interest of certain services, agencies, and countries. Hence, plenty of interests, wouldn't want the rest to get their hands on it, until they themslelves get a good handle of it, (read, (again), torrents of lies, slander, and defamation).
...
Poor bastard thinks he is helping the world, but in reality helps scum become stronger and stronger...
posted by:
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