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In one of my other tribes we are discussing, semi-heatedly, the age of the Earth. One fellow disagrees with the general consensus that it's around 4.5 billion years. Part of the evidence relates to the half-life of potassium-40. He want to know how we can base our estimates of the Earths' age partially on this evidence, when we, and I paraphrase here, "don't REALLY know the half-life of this isotope is X number of years".
My question is how DO we know what the half life of Potassium 40 is, and could it be incorrect, thus throwing off our age estimates?
You guys always help me when I'm in too deep, and out of my league. If you ever need help cooking something special, I would be glad to help. I say I'm a burger-flipper, but that just modesty. I have a degree from Le Cordon Bleu and would be happy to return the favor.
My question is how DO we know what the half life of Potassium 40 is, and could it be incorrect, thus throwing off our age estimates?
You guys always help me when I'm in too deep, and out of my league. If you ever need help cooking something special, I would be glad to help. I say I'm a burger-flipper, but that just modesty. I have a degree from Le Cordon Bleu and would be happy to return the favor.
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Re: How old is the Earth?
Tue, March 31, 2009 - 4:13 PMOh yeah, I forgot to post this:
I think the Wiki article gives a great overview of Western scientists’ thoughts concerning the age of the earth.
Assumptions are repeatedly being proved wrong because they are just that “assumptions.” Assumptions are not observed facts.
It is one thing to say that water boils at 212 degrees based on scientific observation.
But what is basis for claiming potassium 40 has a half life of 1.3 Billion years?
The current method of dating the earth “assumes that the way meteorites are formed now is the way the planet earth was formed.”
I think it's a huge assumption that meteors are formed *now* the same way the Earth was formed.
<”In a lecture in 1869, Darwin's great advocate, Thomas H. Huxley, attacked Thomson's calculations, suggesting they appeared precise in themselves but were based on faulty assumptions.”>
Logical calculations based on faulty assumptions produce faulty conclusions. Each of those scientists argued their assumptions were correct.
Why assume that a lifeless dry/burning rock was formed in the same manner and at the same time as a planet that is two-thirds water and teeming with varied life?
<Charles Darwin, who had studied Lyell's work, had proposed his theory of the evolution of organisms by natural selection, a process whose combination of random heritable variation and cumulative selection implies great expanses of time.>
Western science continues to present assumptions based on Darwin’s theory. But if an Intelligence is responsible for “seeding” a variety of life forms on this planet, billions of years of “evolution” become unnecessary.
Also, if an Intelligence induced/introduced water on this planet, it would alter the cooling/age assumptions presented in the article.
There is more observable repeatable scientific evidence of an Intelligence designing life on this planet than there is evidence of random chaos creating complex intelligent life.
<The German physicist Hermann von Helmholtz (in 1856) and the Canadian astronomer Simon Newcomb (in 1892) contributed their own calculations of 22 and 18 million years respectively to the debate: they independently calculated the amount of time it would take for the Sun to condense down to its current diameter and brightness from the nebula of gas and dust from which it was born.[20]:14–17 Their values were consistent with Thomson's calculations. However, they assumed that the Sun was only glowing from the heat of its gravitational contraction. The process of solar nuclear fusion was not yet known to science.>
It is an observable scientific fact that nuclear fusion can be created, at will, even by so lowly an intelligence as man.
<Thus the age of the oldest terrestrial rock gives a minimum for the age of Earth assuming that a rock cannot have been in existence for longer than Earth itself.>
But, if it can be scientifically assumed that a meteor was sourced from a mass that is older and larger than the meteor itself, and it can be assumed that a meteor was formed in the same manner that Earth was formed, why not assume the same concerning Earth?
Have you heard of Brane Cosmology (related to string theory)?
In brane cosmology, the visible, four-dimensional universe is restricted to a brane inside a higher-dimensional space, called the "bulk". The observed universe contains the extra higher dimensions. Other branes may be moving through the bulk, interacting with the bulk, and possibly even influencing our brane and introduce effects not seen or accounted for in other cosmological models.
There are a lot of so-called “scientific” theories out there. Not all based on observable science. A lot of it is just math.
I think it’s all pretty confusing. My potassium 40 half life question is one I have not been able to get answered. I’m hoping someone has access to information I don’t have access to. Feel free to cut and paste on that, if you have anything.
reply to this post delete this post -
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Re: How old is the Earth?
Tue, March 31, 2009 - 4:42 PMThis is a fantastic post, Thanos. Trust me, I will see to it, that it will never be deleted as long as this site, and tribe, exist.
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However, I will leave it to Troy to answer the other question(s) - he will nail it.
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Re: How old is the Earth?
Tue, March 31, 2009 - 4:43 PM<<However, I will leave it to Troy to answer the other question(s) - he will nail it. ?>>
Without question Serge.
So keep an eye out Thanos! -
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Re: How old is the Earth?
Wed, April 1, 2009 - 10:33 AMI'm at work, so I haven't read all of the post but I'll answer the half-life question now:
Measure the half-life of something is easy:
Take a known amount of a material, say potassium, use a mass spec. to determine the amount of the isotope of interest (40K - potassium 40).
Wait a period of time (in this case, a few years, can be less with really sensitive instruments) and measure again.
Wait another period of time and measure again (all measurements use the same sample). More measurements the better the answer but this is enough.
Analysis the data by fit to
% isotope remaining = 2^(-t / k)
were k is the half-life.
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Re: How old is the Earth?
Tue, March 31, 2009 - 8:42 PMThanos,
It seem like you are looking to science to support your view of intelligent design.
Or is it your view of intelligent design to disprove science. I'm just not sure about what you are saying.
What is it that you are saying about the age of the earth?
How old do you believe the earth is?
You can date the earth in many ways.
Do you want to put them all aside as assumptions?
What is your point?
Maybe you think science is all wrong and that the earth is 6,000 years old?
What is it? -
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Re: How old is the Earth?
Tue, March 31, 2009 - 9:01 PM<<You can date the earth in many ways. >>
I recommend dinner & a movie.
perhaps you could take her out bowling? -
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Re: How old is the Earth?
Wed, April 1, 2009 - 5:45 AMWhen I said, oh yeah, I forgot to post this- that was his post I cut and pasted, not mine. -
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Re: How old is the Earth?
Wed, April 1, 2009 - 5:49 AMI'll be the last person to say this planet is 6000 years old, and anyone who thinks it is is a F*****G idiot. LOL, 6000 years, I thought you guys knew me better by now. Lol, heh. -
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Re: Ambiguity
Wed, April 1, 2009 - 7:02 AMOh, yes, Thanos, I understood you the way you've described.
I think, it was a little ambiguous to Curry, because there is only one (of what I can remember), short, mentioning that that cut-n-pasted post #2 you've posted is actually somebody else's, and not yours. That's why, I think, he said that.
(It, kinda, initially, gave me the same impression, but I had more time to read it, so I didn't just skim through. I noticed that you'd mentioned it was somebody else's post copied to here.
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Re: Ambiguity
Wed, April 1, 2009 - 7:07 PMFrom the For-Whatever-It's-Worth-Department:
"In Western Australia, single zircon crystals found in younger sedimentary rocks have radiometric ages of as much as 4.3 billion years, making these tiny crystals the oldest materials to be found on Earth so far."
LINK pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html
This would put a MINIMUM age of 4.3 billion years on our happy little planet.
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Re: How old is the Earth?
Thu, April 2, 2009 - 5:29 PMJames, I would recommend a spin around the sun. She is going that way. : )
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I'LL TELL YOU HOW OLD
Wed, April 1, 2009 - 11:33 PMThe important point you touch on is that it is truly unknown
I will reiterate myself from the 'Query" topic:
Time travels slower in higher gravity, so to speak of the 'age' of a thing is to try to apply the 'story' concept to what happened - give it a beginning and end. This denies the nature of things: change. The Earth should have been destroyed and reassembled many times by now. Anyone who speaks of the 'age of the universe' is provably an idiot, and the same goes to a lesser degree to the same hypothesis of the Earth. Way to think in the universal sphere - F#$k the Box! -
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Re: I'LL TELL YOU HOW OLD
Thu, April 2, 2009 - 6:47 AMTime travels slower in high gravity? -
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Re: I'LL TELL YOU HOW OLD
Thu, April 2, 2009 - 8:14 AMYes, it's been proven: time travels slower in higher gravity.
Oh, and I hope it didn't sound like I was arguing with Larry. I disagree that the modeling concepts from which the age of that crystal is calculated are perfectly sound. But a minimum age is a much smarter thing to speak of than an actual age, and 4 billion sounds perfectly reasonable...
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Re: Time Dialation, etc...
Thu, April 2, 2009 - 3:09 PMHere's a couple of links, Thanos.
They might give you a better perspective on time dialation, and such...
www.youtube.com/watch
www.bautforum.com/space-ast...ation.html
And skim through these: www.google.com/search
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Re: Time Dialation, etc...
Thu, April 2, 2009 - 6:35 PMReader beware: At the moment, I'm in wet-blanket mode.
Another wrinkle on the issue of the Earth's age is: What the bloody hell do we mean by the question in the first place? Suppose that I get my gravitic anomalizer fixed, and can jump into my tardis, in order to travel back in time to observe the whole planetary formation process unfold. At some point, I'll see some stuff accumulating in our parking space within the solar system. At what point does the agglomeration count as a planet?
Moreover there's informed speculation that the early 'Earth' was struck a glancing blow by a Mars-sized object, which gave rise to the Earth-moon system that we know and love. Is that the defining moment for the 'birth' of our planet?
My nonspecialist's perspective. For the reason I mentioned in an earlier posting, I believe that our rock is more than 4.3 billion years old. But to a certain extent, the naked number of 4.5+ billion years that's thrown out to the hoi polloi is vacuous social currency for cocktail party chit-chat. Before we can get a handle on the scientific problem of dating the Earth, we must come to grips with the inherent language problem. My guess is that that's already been done, but that it hasn't yet filtered down to the Great Unwashed (that's us). And after that, an estimate of the uncertainty for the naked number would be nice too. -
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Re: Time Dialation, etc...
Thu, April 2, 2009 - 7:22 PMuh, as soon as it's round and not getting bigger, imho. -
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Re: Time Dialation, etc...
Fri, April 3, 2009 - 2:47 AMThanos wrote: "uh, as soon as it's round and not getting bigger, imho."
First, although the Earth is closer to being round than being cubic, it is currently not 100% spherical. Was it ever? Hell if I know.
Second, my understanding is that interplanetary dust is--and always has been--slowly falling onto Earth, and slowly adding to its mass.
So even the definition part of the basic question is not easily answered. Astronomers are--or at least recently were--having animated discussions about Pluto's status. We could easily filk the old Supreme Court saying about pornography: I can't define what a planet is, but I'll recognize it when I see it!
On the other hand, we could take perverse pleasure in the knowledge that biologists are having a similar problem in defining one of their central concepts: species. I don't have a big problem with half-baked terminology in the abstract. However given the paucity of caveats, disclaimers, and nuances in local astronomy, I do have a problem with attaching naked numbers to under-defined terms, like the age of the Earth. How many angels can dance on the lens of a microscope? -
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Re: Time Dialation, etc...
Fri, April 3, 2009 - 7:54 PM<<First, although the Earth is closer to being round than being cubic, it is currently not 100% spherical. Was it ever? Hell if I know. >>
It's more of an oblate spheroid -
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Re: Time Dialation, etc...
Sat, April 4, 2009 - 6:12 AMI think your saying that it could be older more or less, b/c when did we consider it "finished", and a actual planet instead of still growing? We could go back 7 billion years and say, look at that planet, that dust there in that ball swirling around. Sure, it's gaining mass, still But I would say it's finished forming. What about when the collision formed the moon? (if it did) was the Earth not a finished planet before that? I think ( thats a dangerous concept, heh) that the age is more tangible than angels on a pinhead. I think you could put an actual, verifiable date on it, within certain parameters. Dating with age ranges smaller than a hundrd million years is probably useless, like saying a woman is pregnant witha baby at 8 1/2 months but with a fetus at 8.
So sayeth Thanos.
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Re: "It's more of an oblate spheroid"
Sat, April 4, 2009 - 11:12 AM:))
In one of my Physics books they call it, (full quote) - "The disagreement between the observed and calculted values, [...of the period of Earth's precession], is attributed to the fact that it is not perfectly rigid, nor is it in the shape of a perfectly symmetric oblate spheroid, [... though it i-s an oblate spheroid); it is shaped like a slightly lumpy pear."
I like this "slightly lumpy pear" expression. :)
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Re: Time Dialation, etc...
Sat, April 4, 2009 - 8:13 AM"First, although the Earth is closer to being round than being cubic, it is currently not 100% spherical. Was it ever?"
No, think about angular momentum and fluids and you'll understand why.
"I do have a problem with attaching naked numbers to under-defined terms, like the age of the Earth. "
I have to agree with you to a certain extent. So long as the "age of whatever" is understood as an estimate every thing is fine (and most scientists do understand this), where the problem comes from is when people want a literal and precise value (kinda like saying I made a cake today).
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Re: Time Dialation, etc...
Sat, April 4, 2009 - 8:04 AM"Another wrinkle on the issue of the Earth's age is: What the bloody hell do we mean by the question in the first place? "
From observation of developing star systems, planets may take as little as 100-250 million years to form, which provides the fudge factor to answer your question. -
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Re: Time Dialation, etc...
Sat, April 4, 2009 - 8:16 AMThe point is: TO SPEAK OF THE AGE OF THE EARTH IS IDIOTIC, it prevents us from figuring out what actually happened before history. -
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Re: Time Dialation, etc...
Sat, April 4, 2009 - 8:28 AM"The point is: TO SPEAK OF THE AGE OF THE EARTH IS IDIOTIC, it prevents us from figuring out what actually happened before history."
Actually trying to figure out how old the Earth is is to figure something out before history - history being defined as what humans have recorded. There is nothing to prevent one from determining the age of the earth and other old astronomical events. -
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This post was deleted by Serge
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.This post was deleted by Serge
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Re: Time Dialation, etc...
Sat, April 4, 2009 - 5:10 PMThe question:
>> One fellow disagrees with the general consensus that it's around 4.5 billion years. Part of the evidence relates to the half-life of potassium-40. He want to know how we can base our estimates of the Earths' age partially on this evidence, when we, and I paraphrase here, "don't REALLY know the half-life of this isotope is X number of years".
My question is how DO we know what the half life of Potassium 40 is, and could it be incorrect, thus throwing off our age estimates?
I’ll give it a shot. Warning - Exceedingly lengthy but thorough! And it takes the mixing and matching from several different disciplines to get there. The dating of things older than recent history probably begins with tree rings. Since we know exactly how old a living tree is by it’s rings, then we can start there. You can date back up to about 20,000-50,000 years in some temperate forests with tree rings thanks to Andrew Ellicott Douglass who first formulated a method for dendrochronology in the early 1900s. This method is done by using thick and thin rings on a living tree with ones on other dead ones, but not so ancient that you can’t overlap some of the thick and thin rings with the living one. You can then overlap more and more felled trees in the same forest. The assumption is that in the big rain years all of the trees in the same forest will have thick rings. Though a thick one on one tree might be thinner on another, so it’s relative to each tree’s growth rate. Then, in drought years, all of them will be thin.. Since a sort of morse code develops with patterns of drought and rain over decades and centuries, you can take data that overlaps from tree to log to log pretty far back. www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/inf..._andrew.html
Around the same time, discoveries were being made in radioactivity by Becquerel, Curie, Rutherford, Roentgen and others. These guys were finding out things like radioisotopes, or emitters were charged particles and that they would veer when coming in contact with a magnetic field meaning they were particles and not waves like x-rays, that they would make air become an electrical conductor leading to the geiger counter, and in 1911 Charles Wilson had invented the cloud chamber which would allow a person to actually see the trails of the radioactive particles.
www.rsc.org/images/essay...m18-17763.pdf
During this early miasma of discoveries, Frederick Soddy and Ernest Rutherford 1903 came up with the Law of Radioactivity. It seems that all radioactive isotopes, called parents, decay at the same rate into their particular daughter elements. (whatever they decay into). So, all you have to do is establish a rate for whatever element you find, and it continues decaying at this same rate either forever, or until all of its atoms have decayed. Since one can analyze the percentages of parent and daughter elements in a rock or any sample, and the rate of decay of that parent element is always the same according to the law of radioactivity, one can determine the age of that object. The way that is done is finding the percentages of the parent and daughter element in the clump of matter in question. If it’s 100% parent element, it is 0 time. If it is down to 50% parent and 50% daughter, then it is the term they coined - one half life old. Every element has its own amount of time that it takes for half of it to decay. Some elements have half lives of less than a millionth of second. So, with the Law of Radioactivity, you can say, since there is this amount of parent and this amount of daughter in this sample, it must have decayed for this long. But, what people have difficulty believing, is that we seem to have some elements with half lives much older than our current understanding of the earth’s age or even the age of the universe! 10s of billions of years! Like Rubidium-87, 40 billion years! How could we know that?
Well, remember the tree rings? We can be relatively sure of the age of some pieces of wood that go back to 20,000 years old. In 1949 Willard Libby invented the radiocarbon dating method that would use the percentage of parent element C-14 and daughter N-14 from a sample and be able to determine the age of the sample. It was assumed that rate of C-14 and N-14 decay and creation by cosmic rays colliding with Nitrogen in the Atmosphere remained constant throughout time. At least as long as the atmosphere had been able to sustain life. Then, one could calibrate the law of radioactivity by looking for a tree ring sample that had exactly half C-14 and half N-14. It was found that that the tree ring exactly 5,730 years old was one half life. Then, a tree ring exactly 11,460 years was two half lives old. So, the Law of Radioactivity was proven pretty solidly, not that it wasn’t already.
And now to the age of the earth. All you have to do is find the oldest rocks by using elements that have long half lives, and they have. But, of course with plate tectonics and an active mantle, the fact that the crust continues to recycle as it plummets back into the earth about a centimeter per year in most places, perhaps it is older than the oldest rocks. Some have therefore done the double-checking with moon samples and they mostly agree on 4-5 billion year range. I don’t know how anyone could argue such strong scientific methodologies and grueling cross-referenced data collection. -
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To Dave...
Sat, April 4, 2009 - 5:41 PMHalleluiah, Dave... Halleluiah.
<<I don’t know how anyone could argue such strong scientific methodologies and grueling cross-referenced data collection. >>
By having not done even elemental research on the subject in the available media and literature, and having no clue that the things you have so brilliantly described even exist. Plus, on top of that, being a complete knuckle-dumb looser(s), who wouldn't even fart to move the ass to do any of that.
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And that is how you separate the weeds from the wheat - "Judge People By Their Deeds". (Bible Rocks)
God Bless You Dave.
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Re: To Dave...
Sun, April 5, 2009 - 5:25 AMThank you for making that understandable to me. -
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Re: To Dave...
Sun, April 5, 2009 - 5:47 PMI don't even know how to answer this post from someone else:
Thanos,
<I don’t know how anyone could argue such strong scientific methodologies and grueling cross-referenced data collection.>
All you are presenting is a scientific ideology. You have presented NO scientifc data, at all.
<But, what people have difficulty believing, is that we seem to have some elements with half lives much older than our current understanding of the earth’s age or even the age of the universe! 10s of billions of years! Like Rubidium-87, 40 billion years! How could we know that?>
ROFLOL It is a belief. There is zero scientific data to prove it.
You keep confusion beliefs and assumptions with scientific data.
The potassium 40 half-life question that I began with still has not been answered. And now you want to introduce the dating of elements assumed to have existed billions of years before the earth was formed?
BTW, are those earth years or light years?
Where is the potassium 40 scientifc data and the peer review?
Who did the research?
At least when asked "Where did the 10 commandments come from?" I can point to Moses. -
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Re:
Sun, April 5, 2009 - 8:49 PM<<Where is the potassium-40 scientific data and the peer review? >>
In the scientific literature all over the world, including your local university(s), cretin. Just get your ass up and go and ask for it in their library.
<<Who did the research?>>
This will be included in the paper. (every single one of them)
<<All you are presenting is a scientific ideology. You have presented NO scientific data, at all.>>
This is a Chat Room, not an academic library, imbecile. The necessary documents are found in the appropriate for them places. (see above)
<<ROFLOL It is a belief. There is zero scientific data to prove it.>>
There is MORE THAN A CENTURY of scientific data to prove this. Just go and ask for it. (see above)
<<The potassium-40 half-life question that I began with still has not been answered.>>
It HAS been answered. The method you have been presented with is applicable to any and all elements, and their isotopes.
<<BTW, are those earth years or light years?>>
Years are units of TIME, and Light Years are units of DISTANCE, you dumb fuckin' cluck.
<<I can point to Moses.>>
Who the fuck is Moses? The ten commandments were written by Djabudoombah KooKooPoongka, moron.
<<Where is the proof that it was done by Him?>>
Right in that same ass where the proof of Moses is hiding.
P.S. Thanos, don't even waste your time on that absurd nonsense, man. (Unless there is nothing else to do)
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Re:
Sun, April 5, 2009 - 10:59 PMSerge,
Normally I discourage profanity, this time I'll make an exception - that was fucking funny. -
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Re:
Mon, April 6, 2009 - 6:32 AMI unfortunately also resorted to choice wordage during a fit of pulling my hair and bashing my head against the wall... I knew that was going to be a brawling tribe, but I didn't anticipate being a major contestant. These people just drive me nuts, and I hate it when they try to use science to support unsustainable positions. It really drives me.
Lol, I was looking at creation museums the other day, and one of them had a deal where they wwere saying they had "evidence of coexistence of humans and dinosaurs. I also had a guy tell me that humans lived hundreds of years in biblical times because of an unknown element in the atmoshere at the time blocking out radiation that kills us early nowadays. I asked why this mysterious element wasn't present in ice core samples?
LMAO.
Thanks, guys, haha -
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Re:
Mon, April 6, 2009 - 9:45 AM"I asked why this mysterious element wasn't present in ice core samples? "
If it was present in the ice core samples then it wouldn't be mysterious then, now would it?
"I also had a guy tell me that humans lived hundreds of years in biblical times because ..."
A good example of someone with a literal interpretation having no real understanding of what they've read: In biblical times (old testament), it was rare for people to live to fifty so to say that someone lived to a hundred was an honorific and to say that they lived longer was a greater honor (so saythe other documents from the time and cultures).
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Re: :)
Mon, April 6, 2009 - 1:15 PM<<Normally I discourage profanity, this time I'll make an exception - that was fucking funny.>>
This is exactly why I'd used it. In cases like this it is allowable.
:)) -
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Re: :)
Mon, April 6, 2009 - 4:13 PM>>And now you want to introduce the dating of elements assumed to have existed billions of years before the earth was formed?
Not me! What I'm proposing is that in the formation of the earth, Rb 87 was created along with everything else at roughly the same cosmic moment.. Then, it has been ever so slightly decaying into Strontium and when 40 billions years go by, I'd wager all my life's earnings that really really close to half of the whole wad has decayed from parent element to daughter. Of course we'll never know,,, but when every other element ever tested has succumbed to the Law of Radioactivity, then when they find an infinitesimally small rate of decay, and plot this on the exponential graph which all radioactive elements share.
It's a scientific LAW. When they classify it as a law guys,,, that means any caveat is really really big!
I'd be the first to say that scientists don't really KNOW that much (there's a lot more out there than we "think" we know-other wise there'd be no need for science now would there?), but they are the biggest doubters amongst us. Due to the rigorous contesting going on between scientists, when they do agree on an "ideal" it might as well be written in stone for the rest of us.. };-D
And I do love this argument. -
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Re: :)
Mon, April 6, 2009 - 10:03 PM"Then, it has been ever so slightly decaying into Strontium and when 40 billions years go by, I'd wager all my life's earnings that really really close to half of the whole wad has decayed from parent element to daughter."
Even for something with a 40 billion year half-life one does have to wait anywhere near that long to see that the isotope decays according to the 2^(-t/k) law (law of half-lives). Ten to 20 years is enough with most equipment available, less if one has both a Geiger counter and a calorimeter (both allows one to identify the decay signature of most isotopes). -
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Re: :)
Wed, April 15, 2009 - 10:51 AMserge wow thanx for the email to wake me back up... this is a truly enjoyable thread... wish I could have seen the deleted threads...
So just to be a pain in the ass...
What is the best (most agreed upon) answer to how old is the earth..
would make a great new date for the kids papers....
April 15, 2.008 x 10 to the 9th
lol -
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Re: :)
Wed, April 15, 2009 - 9:30 PMApril 15, 2.008 x 10 to the 9th? That's well within the age of stromatolites, the world's oldest fossils.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stromatolites -
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2XBFQKsQEI
Thu, June 25, 2009 - 12:48 PM
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