How do you define "Period" in the SCA? How do you determine Historical Accuracy?

I have been trying to decide how my new kit will look and how I will make it as "Period" as possible. Do you have to create your pieces as exact replicas of things found? Does all my metal work have to look like the hand full of photographs you can find in books? Does my trim have to match that of trim found in grave digs?

What if I have studied the metal work and recreated the methods to make a reproduction piece and then using that skill and knowledge and period method I create an original piece? Is this piece "Period? What if I study how card weaving was done during a particular time frame and used these methods and designed a pattern that is not a replica of a found pattern, is this piece "Period"?

Opinions?
  • I started out in the SCA as a sword and knife maker back in the early seventies. When I'd research a particular sword type from a particular time I'd see numerous examples varying in blade, guard, grip and pommel length, width, thickness, shape, and detail. So my rule has always been to make something that falls within those ranges. I rarely ever made an exact copy of a particular surviving piece. I also don't think it is necessary to make an average piece, since what has survived may not be indicative of what actually existed centuries ago. For instance, surviving swords in museums tend to be ornate and may not have been of the form most common at the time of manufacture. Unlike later objects, from say the US Civil War which were mass produced to specific tolerances so as to allow for interchangeability of parts, objects made prior to 1600AD were simply made to a pattern.
    • Thanks Jim.
      I ask the question because I do some casting and I am creating a new Northern Germanic kit based on Roman Iron age pieces found in Denmark and dating between 230 and 270 CE. There are a limited number of pieces such as belt buckles and harness attachments to work from. I plan to work with the general style and design of the time but use my own art work of a style common of the time. When talking with a Laurel about the project and showing a prototype belt tab the comment was made that it look good but since the piece was not an exact match to the pieces documented it would not be a period piece.

      So, I ask the question here because I was thinking I might put it in an A&S competition when it was finished. I don't want to bother if it will be looked upon as not period. I prefer to do influenced pieces rather than copies.
  • LJ
    LJ
    offline 36

    Re: What is "Historical Accuracy" or to be "Period"?

    Mon, October 29, 2007 - 10:46 PM
    First of all, I think you need to step away from the "Quotation Marks."

    As a performer, I cannot possibly know whether my interpretation of a medieval song is in any way accurate. Music scholars more skilled than I are still trying to puzzle out what exactly is represented by certain musical notation systems and how much was simply assumed to be known by the singers and musicians, thereby not requiring it to be written down. I have to take my best shot and hope that my modern audience (who are, after all, the ones who have to suffer through listening to it) at least can connect with it.

    As someone who is fascinated by medieval Japanese textiles on an extremely limited budget, I take the path that probably makes Laurel councils in 18 kingdoms cringe and fake the look of brocade, embroidery and gold leaf with fabric paint.

    Ultimately, YOU are the one who has to decide what compromises you can live with based on your skills, budget, time, research, etc.
    • LJ,

      Sorry to offend you with the quotation marks but I feel they are valid for the purpose of my post. We are not a re-creation organization we are an anachronistic society. I wanted opinions to gain an idea of the consensus of what was acceptable as period for the SCA when it comes to producing objects for a costume. I hope to enter A&S competitions without looking a fool.

      I have looked at photos you have posted of your work and I think it is lovely. I read through your blog that you posted links to. I feel you did a very fine representation of the period piece you used for documentation.
      • Re: What is "Historical Accuracy" or to be "Period"?

        Tue, October 30, 2007 - 11:20 AM
        If you plan to enter what you make in an A&S competition it may make sense to create an exact copy of a surviving original. I personally don't think the specific resulting design is as important though in that case as the method and tools used to produce it.
        • Re: What is "Historical Accuracy" or to be "Period"?

          Tue, October 30, 2007 - 11:35 AM
          I agree with Jim.

          When possible, I prefer for folks to study the process that was used moreso than the result. Often times, this exploration of a process helps explain why a particular design was preferred or appears more often in images from the time. Let's face it, not every design from the period is represented in the surviving images and statuary of whatever period one is studying.

          Also, one has to keep in mind the limitations of period images of items we are trying to figure out the structure of. The limitations of images often comes up when studying period swordwork and the issues of representing 3-dimensional items in a 2-dimensional space. Throughout history, people have been using images and their interpretations of images for deciding what they used to do. Personally, I feel that actually doing it for oneself is the best way to figure out how it was really done.

          So, it really does depend on what your aim is. If you want things to pass the "It looks like we expect it to from 10 ft. away," then I feel it is fine to use modern techniques if you must. However, if your interest is more in the process (or "medieval MacGuyverism" as I like calling it: These are your period techniques and materials. This is your goal. How do you do it?) I think that more is learned and understood when looking at period images after trying to make things for oneself.
        • This statement makes me question if I want to ever put any of my garments, embroideries, or other items into an A&S competition, if all I would be allowed to make are copies of surviving originals. How artistic would that be? How would that encourage me to be creative? What would even be the point?
          • Re: What is "Historical Accuracy" or to be "Period"?

            Tue, February 12, 2008 - 10:00 AM
            When I started out in the SCA, I was dead broke.....but very crafty. I started teaching myself how to make anything I might need in the SCA from head to foot, both soft and hard kit. At first, my stuff was "early SCA" period.......but it didn't take long for my hunger for more information about clothing and kit from different time periods to take over, and for the research to begin. For me, every project turned into a challenge......how was it done in that time period, what materials did they use, what techniques did they use, what materials do I have available in order to make something like it, and what tools do I have at my disposal? Where am I going to find "pit tanned" leather and boar quills with which to make a pair of fourteenth century style turn-shoes? Both items are available, but are quite cost prohibitive, and there are other, more wallet friendly, alternatives. Having seen, and felt, actual "pit tanned" leather, I look for chrome tanned hides that most closely resemble the real deal, both in look and feel, and use that instead. The boar quills were used to actually sew the buggers together, and you can guess what I use for that little job of work. My point is this: I may not use what would have been used in period...but I have done the research, and I know what was used, and how.....and my finished product has the proper "look" of it's fourteenth century ancestor.
            I'm one of those strange folk that enjoy "experimental archaelogy". I like to look at pictures of extant finds, and figure out how it was made by making it.....which requires quite a bit of creativity and thinking outside the box.
            Extant remains account for only a tiny percentage of what was actually in use in any given time period.......looking at period illuminations can give one a more broad idea of designs, colors, and textiles that may have been used in period, but one also must remember that a human created those images, and I'm pretty sure that they took some creative liberties of their own.


            Did that make any sense?
  • To me, period is something that looks as close as I can make it to the particular period item I am trying to re-create. This to me does not mean copy exactly. This means learning what is available to know about the item, how it may have been made then, and making it using what modern materials are available to me, with methods now used. Should I be inclined to make something completely from scratch, that would be a worthy goal to someday achieve, but is not a requirement.

    And while my garments and embroideries may not be a copy of a surviving garment (since very few items survived from the time frame I work from) I think they are still worthy of work, and study, and to put into an A&S competition. For me, the pleasure comes from doing the work, and the competition is the incentive to get it done by a certain deadline. If it wins, that would be sprinkles on the cake, but not needed. YMMV.
    • LJ
      LJ
      offline 36
      Personally, I don't do competitions. I don't find them useful. I think they are an artificial construct and they make me crazy. Crazier. Whatever.

      Some people do like them as a way to get feedback on their work.

      Keep in mind that the only qualification an A&S competition judge has to have is the inability to say no to a frantic and desperate A&S minister. Your work may be judged by someone who has absolutely no background in the work you're doing. (Like the time I got collared to judge pottery!)

      Keep in mind that all judging is subjective in some way. Anyone who tells you otherwise is not being honest with themselves or you.

      If your kingdom has its judging sheets and guidelines for A&S competitions published on line, it would be a good idea to look them over and see what sorts of criteria your work may be subject to.

      Document what you do. If your artifact differs from known extant period artifacts, explain in detail why you've done what you did. Anticipate the "I want to know more" questions, particularly those of judges who don't know about your art.

      Oh, and have fun. Isn't that the point?
  • Thank you, all for the input.

    It is very much appreaciated.
    • Re: What is "Historical Accuracy" or to be "Period"?

      Wed, December 26, 2007 - 1:15 AM
      I'm more of the opinion that only actual medieval artifacts are of a medieval period and anything that is real is period in that it does not exist in a separate time and space. One can ask how close they came to reproducing something but that is not what you are asking.
      As far as SCA arts and sciences contests go I also can confirm that they are not judged fairly. For example one person said their cooking was graded down for tasting "too vinegary".
      True creativity requires freedom of expression and I think there's a big difference between reproducing a copy like a machinist does and developing something that is artistically creative.
      I learned some very useful techniques in metalworking and martial arts by involving myself with members of the SCA or people associated with the SCA but their contest never interested me, as it was clear that they were biased.
  • Re: What is "Historical Accuracy" or to be "Period"?

    Wed, December 26, 2007 - 12:55 PM
    You ask a lot of questions that begin with "Do you have to....?" but really, there _IS_ no "have to" in the SCA.

    How accurate you want to make your clothing, equipment, campsite, accessories, food, et cetera -- really, it's a decision everyone has to make for themselves. Some people are made happy by anything that looks or feels medieval. Some are made happy by exact copies of existing medieval artifacts from their persona's specific century and place. And there's everything, and I mean *everything*, in between. The SCA is a very big "umbrella" that has room for lots of different people and ideas.

    Historical accuracy is also NOT a black-or-white thing -- there are all shades of gray. Something that was common, well-known, and typical in one century may have been completely un-imaginable or unfashionable or simply not known in a different place, or at an earlier or later time.

    Most people in the SCA also don't feel they have to make ALL parts of their re-creation equally accurate. I'm sure we all know people who wear impeccably made, extremely accurate clothing and subsist on cheese sandwiches and soda. Others make food from carefully researched period recipes but don't really much care what they're wearing. Either or both may enjoy medieval motets or 19th-century sailor songs (or both!), or wear handmade chain-mail or modern hockey gloves (or both!). Each person does what is comfortable, affordable, interesting and fun for themselves.

    Some medieval things could not be re-created in modern times because the materials simply don't exist any more, or are prohibitively expensive. Some medieval techniques are probably not wise to use today because we know NOW that they are very unsafe -- mercury-based paints, for instance. Some medieval artifacts require years to create, or years of experience before someone has the skill to do them, and most of us simply don't have that kind of time. All of us have budgets and have to consider what to spend our money on, too. (You know, like rent, cars, families, computers, all those complications of life!)

    This doesn't even consider the limitations of our knowledge. Some medieval things are harder to re-create than others because we simply don't have 100% information about how they were done or what kind of variation there was at a particular historical place and time. So we do research, we share information, and we make guesses about what might have been done.

    You are asking some very big questions, and they don't have easy answers.

    That said, there is also lots of debate about the role of creativity. Certainly medieval people did not feel compelled to make only exact reproductions of existing pieces. But in being "creative" and making new works, we always run the risk that, unknown to us, our 21st-century ways of thinking and seeing may lead us to make some quite un-medieval choices in design, construction, and technique. To counteract this, many of us do extensive research so that we have lots of examples to look at, which helps to train our eyes to see what kinds of variations people in our period felt free to make -- and then we try to make our own creative steps stay within that range.

    But again, there is no black-and-white distinction. I think in this particular tribe you will find people who mostly agree that, all other things being equal, Authentic Is Good, More Authentic Is Better, and the fact that we can't do it perfectly doesn't mean we can't have fun doing the best we can. By necessity, everything we do is at least a few steps away from exactly how things were done historically. The focus here is going to be on (1) knowing what those differences are, (2) deciding which ones are important to us and which aren't, and (3) making the differences as small as we think we can. I personally hang out with people who articulate the goal as "to produce something that, if dropped through a time machine into the year 1327 (or whatever year you pick), would not seem out of place to the people who lived there." We may not always get there, but we have fun trying.

    Card weaving is a good example. We have quite a few period examples of card weaving to look at, and a fairly wide range of designs. We can reproduce historical designs exactly, using the materials we have. We can combine parts of one design with parts of another to create something we're pretty sure a medieval person would find unremarkable. We can try to imagine how a medieval person would create designs, and create some of our own along those lines. All of these are valid ways to proceed, and we can make any choice we want.

    That probably doesn't answer your question, but hopefully it may help you think it through and find your own answers.
    • Re: What is "Historical Accuracy" or to be "Period"?

      Wed, December 26, 2007 - 9:20 PM
      I tend to agree with Chris when she says "I personally hang out with people who articulate the goal as "to produce something that, if dropped through a time machine into the year 1327 (or whatever year you pick), would not seem out of place to the people who lived there."" As I stated above, I tend to make interpolations of surviving objects rather than an exact copy of a specific surviving object. I'd go so far as to state that some extrapolation ought to also be allowed, though for an A&S competition I'd personally stick with interpolation. I sometimes wonder what the SCA would look like today if at the first tournaments the knights had been chosen by armed combat while the king and queen were chosen by prowess in the arts and sciences.
  • Amusing update...I was informed at a party over the holidays that my own group's encampment was originally termed the "Dis-Enchanted Ground" since it was founded by folks who used to camp at Enchanted Ground and were involved in a dispute regarding how dishes were to be washed...their desire for hygeine was deemed too non-period in how it was gone about and so they split off. At least that is how the story goes. I found it quite interesting, especially if one gets really period and looks at the eyewear of folks.

Recent topics in "Authenticity in the SCA"

Topic Author Replies Last Post
Marrying Into Another Time/Place? Emine 4 July 14, 2008
Looking for Border Reivers Chris 0 May 12, 2008
Period Patterns Octavia 14 February 14, 2008
Juried Merchants Jim 9 February 4, 2008
authentic "kuchi" pendants Octavia 0 December 28, 2007