Here is an excerpt (from 7 pages under 'prostitution') in Barbara Walker's 'Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets' (which every woman should own a copy of !!). It doesn't really answer your question, but.....
'Dancing harlots came to be called 'Hours' : Persian 'houri', Greek 'hourae'. Egyptian temple-women also were Ladies of the Hour. Each ruled a certain hour of the night, and protected the solar boat of Ra in the underworld during his passage through her hour. The Dance of the Hours began as a pagan ceremony of the Horae (divine "Whores") who kept the hours of the night by dances, as Christian monks later kept the hours of the day by prayers. The oldest authentic Hebrew folk dance is still called 'hora' after the circle dances of the sacred harlots. The Horae also guarded the gates of heaven, ministered to the souls of the blessed, and turned the heavenly spheres.'
So remember that next time you read your hor-oscope, hehheh.
'Dancing harlots came to be called 'Hours' : Persian 'houri', Greek 'hourae'. Egyptian temple-women also were Ladies of the Hour. Each ruled a certain hour of the night, and protected the solar boat of Ra in the underworld during his passage through her hour. The Dance of the Hours began as a pagan ceremony of the Horae (divine "Whores") who kept the hours of the night by dances, as Christian monks later kept the hours of the day by prayers. The oldest authentic Hebrew folk dance is still called 'hora' after the circle dances of the sacred harlots. The Horae also guarded the gates of heaven, ministered to the souls of the blessed, and turned the heavenly spheres.'
So remember that next time you read your hor-oscope, hehheh.
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Mon, November 6, 2006 - 2:33 PMBRAVO..Roxanna!!!! This is EXACTly the kind of material that I was hoping for on this tribe. Very interesting stuff and very informative...Thank you so much for sharing it!
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Mon, November 6, 2006 - 7:41 PMI was a folk dancer before I became a belly dancer (and actually continued folk dancing on and off over the years since). There is a Balkan line dance called the oro. I wonder if the root of that is the same etymologically speaking as the Israeli word "hora".
The book Sacred Woman, Sacred Dance explores the theory that the traditional circle dances and line dances remaining as folk dances today may be remnants of what were once sacred rituals. The theory goes that when the Roman empire came along and imposed the patriarchal Christian religion, the indigenous people disguised their rituals as recreational dances in order to be allowed to continue doing them. Over the centuries, the spiritual significance was lost and just the recreational remained. It's an interesting book which I enjoyed very much.
Of course, the dances I've described above don't resemble belly dance at all, not even in the slightest. But I enjoy doing them nonetheless! -
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Fri, November 10, 2006 - 6:19 PMI LOVE that book!!! Look up henna, too...:))))))))
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Wed, January 23, 2008 - 5:59 AMI've never found a Classical Hellenic reference to the Horae as sacred whores. I'm pretty sure that's a myth that's been applied backwards in history or it might be that your author used some tricky wording to apply an association to whores that should not exist.
Question the research of anyone who uses the terms "Pagan" without defining the exact religion and time frame. Just from a cursory look I find this quote to be riddled with very poor scholarship, I think it's intended to dupe the reader. As for the Egyptian Hours, they were definately not whores in the Egyptian Heiro Logoi. If you've ever studied Egyptian Cosmology seriously then you know that most of what you read off the bookshelf is so monsterously toned down because Egyptian culture was so vulgar when translated directly into English. If they were whores... their epithets would clearly state it. They are more like guardians, assasins and warriors (at least that's what I get from their epithets) but I suppose it would be easy to confuse a warrior woman with a whore as the archetype is pretty much the same in the collective minds of most English speaking nations.
Haetera were more like Awalim or Geisha if you can translate the concept. Again... any author can put their own spin on it. It would be easy to sensationalize.
Hora is indeed related to the Bulgarian/Macedonian Oro, they do share the same root word which is "Choros." (The same root of the word choreography and chorus.) It has absolutely nothing to do with whores. It is a folk dance that can be found in different variations throughout the Balkan region. I can only guess that the author took the word Hora and just let her imagination run wild. (I would be using this book to prop up a wobbly table leg by now.)
Here is some more information on the Horae.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horae
Here is more information on the Egyptian Hours, scroll down, it's at the bottom.
touregypt.net/featurestor...inorgods.htm
I'm sure there's more but this is just what I pulled off the top of my head. Watch out for this kind of author, you have to read what they say very carefully.
~*Spoon*~ -
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Wed, January 23, 2008 - 7:07 AMShira, "hora" is not an Israeli word, for all I know. Hora is Latin and means "hour" and "horae" is the plural and means hours. Relating hours to whores looks like nothing more tha silly word games in my eyes. And this whole fascination with whores does not impress me. I am fairly sure that Isis temple priestesses were not regarded as whores by the Egyptians, nor do they have anything whatsoever in common with Japanese geishas, IMO.
Pop research, argh ! -
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Wed, January 23, 2008 - 8:00 AMIf you're talking about my comparison of Haetera to Awalim and Geisha then you're misunderstanding what Haetera are. Haetera were not Priestesses, they were trained musicians, entertainers and companions. They studied the arts and sciences so as to be good hired guests at parties and social gatherings. If they slept with anyone it was something that they did on the side and had nothing to do with their primary function as conversation starters and entertainers.
If you want to evaluate what the Priestesses of Isis did then you need to break it up by time period. Under Roman occupation the Cult of Isis flourished considerably accross the Empire and managed to hybridize itself as well as ally itself politically with several important figures and groups throughout Roman history. In Egypt proper (pre-Ptolemaic) Isis was called such interesting epithets that it might lead one to speculate that perhaps the Priestesses of Isis did engage in ritual sex acts. Though probably not with the living. (I would love to actually state what they are but I think the words themselves would cause an uproar.)
Hora as a Latin word for hour is correct but the root doesn't stop at the Latin simply because many of our English words do. Latin was greatly impacted by Etruscan, Sabine and Greek (languages/dialects). Greek being the educated language of the Classical period. The "Dance of the Hours" is a Greek metaphor, much of Greek metaphor relates to dance, especially where cosmic bodies are concerned. And as time was measured celestially through the orbits of the stars and the "dance" of the sun across the sky the word hour and the word dance came to be interconnected. (Time is also measured through rhythm.)
So... I am not suggesting that there was an active trade between Classical Japan and Classical Greece, just that there is a similar practice that has occured in three different cultures, possibly completely unrelated to each other. (Though given the proximity I would hazard a guess that there's some connection between Awalim and Haetera but it's an unimportant one.) Not all Priestesses and Goddesses are whores(I can't think of very many who are off the top of my head), not all "Pagan" religions are one religion or even follow a similar precept of concepts. The word Hora and Whore, if they have any connection at all, are certainly not connected in this way.
"Prolegomena to the Study of Greek Religion," Jane Harrison
"Dance and Ritual Play in Greek Religion," Steven H.Lonsdale
"Origins: Creation Texts from the Ancient Mediterranean," Charles Doria and Harris Lenowitz
"The Ancient Mysteries: A Sourcebook of Ancient Texts," Marvin W. Meyer
~*Spoon*~ -
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Wed, January 23, 2008 - 12:05 PMThanks ladies! Now THIS is becoming the discussion I wanted to have all along. The information and references you give are engaging and enlightening. I especially appreciate this quote here:
"The 'Dance of the Hours' is a Greek metaphor, much of Greek metaphor relates to dance, especially where cosmic bodies are concerned. And as time was measured celestially through the orbits of the stars and the "dance" of the sun across the sky the word hour and the word dance came to be interconnected. (Time is also measured through rhythm.)"
This makes so much sense to me and allows me to appreciate the deeper meaning [and function] of dance for humankind.
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Unsu...
Re: sacred whores and dances
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 6:49 AMPlease state what the Isis priestess did, we are all adults here, so if it causes uproar then those who cannot hack it shouldn't be on here.
I know what you mean, in how some past cultures the accepted practices would be considered sexually devient, violent,and totally unacceptable.
However its a good idea, is to remind and say to oneself before studying into subjects such as this, that they are completely different and have totally different value, and belief systems, and try to empty our minds of our own preconceptions.
Its a hard thing to do, but necessary if you want to seek, and accept the truth.
Writters, and scholors ahve for too long, watered down what they have found, for fear of offending peoples delicate minds.
Its why there are so many misconceptions in this day and age about many different cultures, and their practices, including as to what a belly dancer is.
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 7:34 AMYes, what do you mean by ritual sex acts, though probably not with the living? -
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 8:38 AMI'm happy to continue along the lines of the Pre-Ptomolaic Cult of Isis but I wanted to give the group a warning about the type of content it would feature before I continued. (Seriously pardon my language in this, I'm not used to talking this way when I'm in scholastic mode.) This is from the Pyramid Texts, Sixth Dynasty, 2400BCE, Passage 600.
As it lists the "Nine strong God company in On" it gives the epithets:
Auset "Cunt River" (Which should not be surprising as that's actually where we get the word today, that's what the Nile means.)
Ausar "Mummy Fucker" (This one actually did come as a surprise to me.)
Now these epithets are rendered in respect and given repeatedly. The only thing I'm not really clear on is if "Mummy Fucker" means "Mummy that Fucks" or "Mummy to be Fucked." Sacred Stories were commonly enacted during festivals throughout the calendar year. One such story is the Sacred Tale of Isis that I'm hoping everyone is familiar with, if you're not then read the greatly abriged version here www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/...uality.html
This would mean that the acting Invocant of Isis would most likely either have had ritual sex with a corpse or had ritual intercourse with a stone, gold or wooden carved phallus on top of a corpse, mummy, sarcophagus... something to that effect. It could have just as easily been intercourse with a statue of Osiris, I'll bet that a lot of options were explored over the span of a couple thousand years.
I don't really consider this whore-ish behaviour but it is rather different. As kind of an interesting note I found what looks to be a neat course offerend by Johns Hopkins University on a subject parallel to this one. One of the books in my list is on their required reading list so the rest of themmight be worth looking into. www.jhu.edu/gazette/2005.../24bryan.html
"Origins: Creation Texts from the Ancient Mediterranean" Charles Doria and Harris Lenowitz
"Ancient Egyptian Sexuality" Gay Robbins
~*Spoon*~ -
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Unsu...
Re: sacred whores and dances
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 11:51 AMThank you, i've saved the links onto favorites for futher study when i have more time.
I've looked through a few threads to find that you added very informed posts to them, have you studied this at university/college, or just good old fashioned self education? -
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 12:09 PMMostly just self educated, I never finished college.
I actually make my living as a dance researcher though so this is my bread and butter. I specialize in Mediterranean Religions, Catholic Heresey, Folktales of the Mediterranean, Classical Dance in the Mediterranean and I dabble in Ethnomusicology from... the Mediterranean region on the whole. I am extremely picky about my sources and have high expectations for fellow authors. If I ever recommend a book it's because it's really thoroughly well constructed.
This year I'll be challenging a few courses for college credit. I would like to go after a Bachelors in Art History.
Glad you enjoyed the post, I've just entered a busy phase this week so I really only have time to reply to things. Have fun with studying. :-)
~*Spoon*~
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 1:03 AMOkay Spoon..You are causing me to develop a "groupie" complex now..hahaha! You seem to be just the person whose brain I'd love to pick. I am greatly enjoying your posts and what your capable of delivering, in terms of new and fascinating info. Good stuff!! -
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 5:43 AMIt's nice to be appreciated but unfortunately I have the curse that Da Vinci warned about. What I know I know really well, what I don't know I don't know at all. I've specialized and focused on specific subjects so much that it's rather unbalanced. Exposure to things outside that sphere would be really healthy for me. So pick all you like on the subjects I know but I'll be picking the rest of you on the subjects I don't. And thank you very much for the compliment. I'll see if I can put together an interesting post sometime here soon.
~*Spoon*~ -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: sacred whores and dances
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 6:56 AMNow wait a minute, you wrote about mummy fucking? In the Osiris story it says:
"After his first attempt, Set managed to kill Osiris again and cut up his body into numerous parts. These parts Set spread all over Egypt. Isis, Nephthys and Anubis searched Egypt, and managed to retrieve all of the pieces of the body, except one - Osiris' phallus. Set had dropped the penis into the Nile (making it fertile), where it was eaten by a fish. The god and goddesses pieced Osiris together and created the first mummy. Using her magic, Isis fashioned a replacement for Osiris' missing part, either out of clay, wood or gold, and attached this to her dead husband's body. Through magical spells, life was breathed back into Osiris' body (though some dispute this and believe that Osiris was dead at the time)... The goddess managed to share a time of passion with her husband who impregnating her with their child, Horus. Osiris then passed into the afterlife, becoming god of the dead."
That means, Osiris was alive when Isis conceived her child from him, so why would it mean that the worshippers of Isis would have to engage in necrophilia? References? Anyway, I do not see how it would be technically possible to have sex with a mummy without destroying the mummy. I found absolutely nothing on that in the links you gave in your posting. It says that Egyptians believe, there is life incl. sex after death and they attached penises and nipples to mummies, assuming that the dead would have sex with each other, not with the living. Note: assuming.
Did I miss something, Spoon?
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 6:54 AMYes you did miss a couple things but that was probably due to the brevetiy of my post. Symbolic ritual played an extremely important role in the Ancient to Classical religions of the Mediterranean and Egypt was definately not the exception to the rule, if anything Egyptian culture led the charge. Acording the Papyri Graecia Magica the real thing is always preferrable, it is always considered more powerful but if the real thing can't be used then a suitable icon will do. The icon, the archetype of Osiris is a Mummy. If he were to look like just a man in nice clothes then the power of the image would be lessened. Thus to enact the Heiro Logos if Isis' final union with Osiris, a Mummy icon would have to be used, mostly likely a statue of the god, a man dressed as a mummy, or to get the full effect... a dead high ranking priest or other important and devout figure. Since the practice was going on for a very long time I suspect that all the above options were explored at one time or another. Eventually by the Roman era the enactment of the Heiro Logos of Isis was considered a Mystery Religion (Mysterion) and thus was opened up the living Mystai which we can only assume involved ritual sex with the living.
Either way you go the Cult of Isis practiced either literal or symbolic necrophilia. So when you read a source that says that Egyptian culture hints at necrophilia... this is probably one of the sources for that.
"Papyri Graecia Magica" Misc.
"Magika Heira," Faraone and Obbink
"The Mystery Religions," M. Meyer
"Origins," Doria and Lenowitz
Handbook to Life in Ancient Egypt," Rosalie David
"Ancient Egyptian Sexuality," Gay Robins
~*Spoon*~ -
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 9:43 AMI found this on wikipedia:
Like Ishtar, the Greek Aphrodite and Northwestern Semitic Astarte were love goddesses who were "as cruel as they were wayward".[11] Donald A. Mackenzie, an early popularizer of mythology, draws a parallel between the love goddess Aphrodite and her "dying god" lover Adonis[12] on one hand, and the love goddess Ishtar and her "dying god" lover Tammuz on the other.[11] Some scholars have suggested that
the myth of Adonis was derived in post-Homeric times by the Greeks indirectly from Babylonia through the Western Semites, the Semitic title 'Adon', meaning 'lord', having been mistaken for a proper name. This theory, however, cannot be accepted without qualifications."[13]
Joseph Campbell, a more recent popularizer of mythology, equates Ishtar, Inanna, and Aphrodite, and he draws a parallel between the violent yet loving Hindu goddess Kali, the Egyptian goddess Isis who nurses Horus, and the Babylonian goddess Ishtar who nurses the god Tammuz.[14]
I still don't know what it is about the "dying god lover", but I know that the Indian goddess Shakti who symbolises the life energy is often depicted sitting on Shiva, the god of death and destruction, in the act of sex while Shiva is lying on the floor . I believe this has a symbolic meaning about the life-death-cycle, I don't think it has to be taken literally, but it would be interesting to explore the parallel to Egyptian culture.
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 10:09 AMComparative mythology is interesting and fun to do but I find that it leads to dangerous generalizations about the distinct character of the cultures being compared. Comparative mythology is what has led most people to assume that Classical Greek and Roman religionand gods are the same thing. It leads to mental hybridization and usage of words like, "The Great Goddess" to mean more than the actual deity Magna Mater. If you can keep the cultures straight in your head then comparative mythology is a great passtime but for those who don't actually have a thorough background in the compared cultures it becomes the bane of education.
Also... the internet may be a great place to access information but it is a poor filter for misinformation. The massive amount of misinformation available is creating a dark age of arm chair scholars who do nothing more than continue to perpetuate poor scholarship. Be especially careful when allowing another author to make your comparisons for you. Question everything and as often as possible bring it back to the original source.
~*Spoon*~
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Tue, January 29, 2008 - 4:29 AMAstrid,
I wanted to thank you for taking the time to check the links I posted and form good questions from the gaps that I left in my previous posts. It takes a keen mind to find the questions that need to be asked. I respect the ability to ask the right questions and the tenacity to question sources. Your questions are very valuable because they keep the standards high. I just wanted you to know that I appreciate that and I hope that you'll continue not taking things at face value.
~*Spoon*~ -
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Tue, January 29, 2008 - 12:15 PMWell said Spoon. I too believe that asking the right questions and questioning sources is crucial to the task of sorting through all the generally accepted ideas (myths) that pose as reality these days [and <whew!> there are lots of those]. Just getting through the sources that you've cited here is quite a task in and of itself. I've got alot to catch up on [though I have to finish reading the several books I already have by one of my favorite authors, Ralph Ellis...Do you know of him?].
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 12:49 AM"The oldest authentic Hebrew folk dance is still called 'hora' after the circle dances of the sacred harlots."
Hora is not "oldest" neither it's authentic. It was brought to Israel (then Palestine) between 1904-1914, during the second wave of 'Aliya' (repatriation) by Jews from Eastern Europe. -
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 5:42 AMThank you, Sophie. -
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Re: sacred whores and dances
Tue, February 12, 2008 - 9:36 AMSure! I found an article that gives pretty much accurate account on Hora.
www.forward.com/articles/12226/
It pretty much sums up the Hebrew articles that I found online. Enjoy!
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