Got any questions or doubts about things you've heard or have been taught about bellydancing in general? Have strong feelings about some of these? Do you have some new and original ideas of your own that you would like to share?
posted by:
Sarita
Canada
  • "Belly dancing is thousands of years old."

    It may be valid to treat the above as a theory, but as of yet I have not yet seen proof of it. Actually, I'd like to see proof of it, because I WANT it to be true, but I'm still waiting. I'd be satisfied with a drawing from a cave somewhere that shows a woman in a posture that looks as though she's doing some sort of hip movement.



    "There are tombs in Egypt showing that belly dance is 5,000 years old."

    To my knowledge, the only tombs in Egypt that are believed to be 5,000 years old are those at Saqqara. I have been inside these tombs, and I have seen the depictions of dance on the walls. I'd agree that it looks like dance, but it doesn't look like belly dance in particular. So while I think it's valid to claim that there are tombs in Egypt showing that people danced 5,000 years ago, these drawings don't look like belly dance.

    Actually, I have a personal theory that every day people (NOT the people of the court or the temples) did belly dance as a social dance. But the only evidence I have so far to support my theory is that traditional hip-oriented dances exist today throughout the continent of Africa, including every country that's anywhere near Egypt. Libya has the hagalla. Farther west you have Tunisia with its twisting hip articulations. Moving farther west to Algeria you have the Ouled Nail. Farther west the schikhatt. Going south from Egypt, you have many more hip-oriented dances in not only the Sudan, but throughout eastern and central Africa.
    • I do agree with you, Shira! I too wish it were so but cannot find any real evidence that supports this. I've even searched my own imagination trying to come up with some idea of where it could have all begun [the same dance with all the same movements]. I keep going back to the idea of prehistoric subcontinental India for some reason. Don't know why [I'm just 'channeling' I guess..haha] but this idea has a bit of resonance to it. It would be wonderful to find someone out there who could give us the real 'low-down' on this subject though.
      • There are some interesting references to dance in places like ancient Crete, but the interpretations of the writing are all done by men and through the lens of the Judeo-Christian mythos. Meaning that everything I've read in connection with pre-Christian dance, has a negative connotation. So again, we know that dance existed but not what kind.
        One of the biggest indicators of the ancient origins of the dance (to my way of thinking), are the birth dance rituals and practices. Probably Morocco could tell us more :-)
  • As to general "Sacred Cows",... I rather hate the 'It's a dance of seduction'.
    Ha ha and ha. There are far easier ways to seduce a man!
    I don't think this dance originally had anything to do with men - unless men were dancing it.
    The dance is a celebration of the strength and beauty of the dancer.
    Just my opinion
    • "I rather hate the 'It's a dance of seduction'. Ha ha and ha. There are far easier ways to seduce a man! "
      Lol, Bri ! We used to say the same about tango: "There are far less complicated ways to get your hands on a woman than learning to dance tango !"
      The first thing I heard about bellydance was that it was what the harem girls would dance for the Sultan, to get him interested because he was so exhausted from being with all these different women all the time. Is that one of the myths too? ; )
      • I've read a couple of great papers on this subject. One by Asim, and one by (I think this is her name) Karen Harding. Both appear to have done extensive research, and Asim's bibliography is really good. I believe the first mention was temple dancers in a matriarchal type society, and when men realized that they had something to do with making babies. When they realized their role, they then decided that they needed to be in charge and control knowing who the daddy was... This brought a beginning of the shift to patriarchal society ( from my understanding from those papers and a few others), so temple dancers who danced as a prayer or ritual or blessing, began to be watched in different ways and (i believe) began to be seen as entertainment... and that was where the shift in dance focus came about... How far back that was... I can't remember, I'd love to hear from some of the folks in the SCA who have researched this as well..
        • Sorry, my last post was kind of caught up in the history behind the history...way before muhammed ali street.. LOL...

          sacred cows, right... thats it...

          hmmm... "by women for women"... that one always gets me, it might apply to things done now in a segregated manner, and maybe done that way for a few hundred years, but not always...

          or...
          "ALL dancers were prostitutes and most still are".... no, i just can't believe that ALL of them....

          when i first started the dance classes, before i got hooked into the SCA's ME dance community, I heard so many things that were sooooo wrong... I had pictures in my head of women all around a room undulating and ululating at some woman crouched in a birthing seat over a hole...... all dark and sweaty with lots of smoke and incense... and men standing around outside smoking.. or women putting on private little shows that nobody else ever got to see, ever. the harem fantasy scenes..... all the hollywood things that get imprinted in your head...

          Here's a good one... before you started actually dancing, taking classes, and learning about this, what did you think of bellydance? Where did you think it came from?

          I had no idea that anyone could take a class. I really thought that it had to be handed down in the family and you had to have come from somewhere in the Middle East... I had no idea. Once the doors were opened in my mind though, I've been insatiable about learning the history and the why and who..
          • >>>... before you started actually dancing, taking classes, and learning about this, what did you think of bellydance? Where did you think it came from? >>>

            Well, I always experienced it as a seductive form actually. I was introduced to bellydancing at a young age by an Egyptian lady who lived in our neighborhood. She was a mother, a wife and a very 'lively' person with a great sense of humour where sexuality was concerned. Her husband used to refer to her as his little "afrita" which means "devil". It was cute and charming to see them always 'cooing' with eachother. She would often stress the idea that bellydancing was 'the ultimate art of seduction' and that in order to be good at it, you first had to know how to make yourself very glamourous and alluring [ie perfectly coiffed hair, eyes and lips made up, nicely perfumed and costume well fitted, showing the right amount of cleaveage and leg [and it had to be lavishly expensive]. Then she showed how to move the body, hips and torso in the most enticing way, with utmost control and smoothness, and attention to the most minute details ie hand gesticulations, arm placement ...where are the eyes looking?...What are your lips saying?...How are you breathing?.... I'll never know for sure [as I never thought to ask her]... but she may have actually been a pro dancer back home in her country.

            Some time later, while taking folk dance lessons at a club in Hollywood CA called "Cafe Hadarim", I saw the most beautiful bellydancer, a chocolate brown beauty with long black hair [down to the back of her knees!] and the most perfect [bombshell] body...shimmering across the floor, in her guilded dress like some magnificent creature from another world. I was so captivated by the spectacle of her, her beauty, the magic surrounding her....that I knew right then and there that I would give anything just to be HER, even for a moment! I never knew her name and never have I seen anything like her since. But she became my own personal archetype of the "perfect bellydancer" and still lives on if only in my memory.

            Heck, I never questioned whether bellydancing was about sexiness & enticement. But I was surprised and bewildered when I learned later on that many in the bellydance community rejected this idea so completely [and so vehemently] and had replaced it with this "mother goddess & childbirth" stuff. Not that I have a problem with this concept which is also just as beautiful. I just don't believe it.
            • Wow your description of the bellydancer was wonderful Sarita. The thing is, I agree with both of you, Bri and Sarita. I feel that bellydance is so really feminine and it is seductive just because the soft moving of hips and breastcage or the wobble of the flesh from the vibrations will inevitably trigger male instincts - there is no way round it. But to say it is a "dance of seduction" in my eyes makes it cheap, too. I hate videoclips that have that keyhole-spy-perspective. I hate dancers that make porn faces obviously wanting to turn on their audience in an openly sexual way that has nothing to do with the music anymore. The dancer is first and foremost obliged to express the music. There are lyrics and a story to it, and the rhythms and the differnt moods of the instruments. Her dance may reveal her sensuality, because of her being very happy to be a woman and enjoying to undulate and so on. That of course is nice to look at and seductive for sure. But the priority is to serve the art and express the music. If the main aim becomes turning on the audience and the dancer becomes an exhibitionist, I think the difference is quite visible.

              But a great dancer may also be in the mood to play the femme fatale at times. I think it is ok if it is not the only thing she can do and she has her public that understands.
              (here is a clip of a fabulous dancer, although I think that she exaggerated on her bra. Maybe she was in the Betty-Boop-mood...but she also shows so much sense of humour that it is obvious she isn't taking that role too seriously):

              youtube.com/watch
              • It all depends on what you understand as "seduction", Nuria. I don't think, seducation has much to do with pornfaces and keyholes. Bellydance very obviously is a dance of seduction, and there is no need to enhance it with expressions that make you look like a stripper because the moves in themselves are seductive enough if done well. Rather than saying "serve the art" I would call it celebrating your own body and your sexuality and expressing yourself as a woman, in an artisitc way. And have you noticed how many hangups some women have about doing just that?
                This Russian dancer in the video- I don't think, she exaggerated on her bra, I think, it is more likely that she overdid it with the silicone. She looks like she is carrying two footballs in that bra, or two perfectly, unnaturally round cabbages, and did you notice how she stopped them from shaking with her hand after a shimmy, at around 0.28? Gross. In my opinion, her moves are much too fast sometimes for a bellydancer. I did not enjoy that video.
                • Maria Shashkova has not such gigantic boobs. The bra makes them look way bigger. Anyway, no point in making up a picture from just one clip. She has her rough style, but I think she is really good.

                  I don't agree with you, Astrid, on a certain point. Celebrate yourself is not a bad thing but I think a dancer celebrates what she feels when listening to the music, respecting things she knows about traditions of the art and its culture, the sense of the music or of the song and not just her fabulous self. Yes, a dancer has to serve, to be humble and respectful towards the art. But there is no contradiction really to enjoyment. A joyless dancer wouldn't be a lot of fun!

                  Bellydance is not just a means to show off one's curves "in an artistic way"!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    I did not say that , Nuria. Celebrating one's body does not necessarily mean just "showing off one's curves", it is a feeling, and a very sensuous, joyful one a that.
                    • Not necessarily, I know that. I wouldn't say that porn-face equals seduction, either.
                      But did I say that a dancer was supposed to dance without joy? Just I think that you have to merit it in a way. It is a lot of work when searching and finding the moves, understanding the relation of instruments and body until you are able to shine through your dance. It is not that you just walk in the door and start enjoying. So I just liked to stress that idea of respect. In fact I don't think that there would be a fundamental contradiction between what we both are saying.
            • "Well, I always experienced it as a seductive form actually."
              Sarita, this is what I am taught by Egyptians, other Arabs and dancers who work /have worked "over there". BUT I think "seductive dance" is different from a "dance of seduction" in purpose. In my experience one can take it to whatever level one is comfortable with in the "sexuality/seduction" spectrum, but traditionally it is in there. One can choose to be as sweet and innocent at Souheir Zaki, as saucy as Sahar Hamdi,as "o" face as Dina or as "marketing" for your other services. It's all there.
              Hundreds of performances for and with Arabs. Classes and troupe practices with Arabs. Friendships with Arabs and therefor interviews based on trust. Direct quotes from famous Egyptian dancers. The same thing being said time after time from dancers who have worked "over there". This is my experience that I base my knowledge upon. Then I read/research from that point of reference.
              The whole "by women for women" is simply silly. There's writing from 911 that is a sultan's description of what he looks for in dancers and musicians. It's not published yet as it's only recently been translated. Hopefully soon.
              Shira, interesting that you mention Saqqara- I'm going there this month.
              The history is so tangled I'd never assume to know where/when it started. But I find it endlessly fascinating to learn about different possibilities.
        • Saahira,

          You should get a hold of a book titled "The Chalice & The Blade" by Riane Eisler. She dismisses the concept of a "matriarchal" society in Neolithic human history and proposes that it was instead a "partnership [gylanic]" society where neither men nor women dominated one another. Her research and her sources are the most highly respected in the historic literary realm.


          • Eisler's work is mostly propaganda, barely any better than Gimbutas in the invention of "facts." A better middle ground would be "The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory: Why An Invented Past Will Not Give Women a Future" by Cynthia Eller but even there you'll have to weed out the massive amount of "face saving" done by the author to get any kind of thought provoking information. Personally I would avoid gender bias or blatant advertisements for gender in the titles of books as the authors really don't do a good job presenting the material without attempting to make a sensationalist point.

            I found "After the Ice" by Steven Mithen to be extremely thorough. It's an excellent starting position to begin further research into your specific areas of interest. From there you can put whatever spin you want on history but I personally think it's better to start out knowing the basics of the archaeology that's out there and the theories that are at work today before exposing yourself to the slippery slope of faulty research and sensational oppinion.

            ~*Spoon*~
            • Thank you Spoon, for your comments...and thank you for the source referrals. I am very much interested in checking them out! I like the title "The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory" [as this has always been a question in my mind]. Steven Mithin's work sounds extremely interesting too. Especially another book of his that I just found "The Prehistory of the Mind: The Cognitive Origins of Art, Religion, and Science" Sounds like a virtual goldmine of information that could be quite useful in the whole discussion here. Thanks again for your excellent suggestions!
        • Can you give me the names of these papers, I doubt they are as accurate as you might believe.

          ~*Spoon*~
          • >>>Can you give me the names of these papers, I doubt they are as accurate as you might believe. >>>

            Which papers are you referring to?
            • "I've read a couple of great papers on this subject. One by Asim, and one by (I think this is her name) Karen Harding. Both appear to have done extensive research, and Asim's bibliography is really good. I believe the first mention was temple dancers in a matriarchal type society, and when men realized that they had something to do with making babies." - Saahira

              Sorry, I didn't realize this was going to show up much lower than the original post.

              ~*Spoon*~
              • Re: paper references

                Fri, March 7, 2008 - 12:58 PM
                This is the Harding paper

                home.comcast.net/~joyfulda...ticles.htm or
                www.bdancer.com/history/

                and Asim's is

                apostate.raqsstorm.org/2003/10/

                i've been reading so many things, at some point i have had to ask myself, which ones are real? why believe this one over that one.... my answer is that I've met Asim and I've experienced his enthusiasm and love for this history. I took a mini class from him in the SCA and have tried to go to any that he is teaching at events that I'm at, because I respect what he's done and his dedication to learning it. He has seen books that I never knew existed, and opened my eyes at the very beginning.... So I have tried to stay on the track built by using his paper, and the other as my foundation for what to read and where to look. I can't remember exactly where I read the temple dancer postulations, but I am fascinated by the evolution of the dance from expression to entertainment... and how it impacts us as dancers today, in our own ways of looking at why and how we dance.
                • Re: paper references

                  Thu, March 20, 2008 - 3:19 PM
                  Man, i sound like a moron in these posts when I go back and read them... I'm really not the "sheep" that I sound like... I simply started taking dance classes when the teacher taught nothing of history and i was hungry for it, and when someone came along who actually knew something, and had researched and traveled, ect, i took the opportunity to learn what i could. From there I've read everything I could, although I've had a really hard time trying to get through "Dancing Fear and Desire" due to the language used. I am always interested in hearing more, learning more, and debunking myths that get spread around. I hold an event in June, and at it I hold a mini class/roundtable on debunking the myths, like mythbusters of bellydance. I go online and get as many myths as I can, then find the truths and try to have articles and books to back it up.. its great fun and people seem to enjoy it. I don't have as much research done as some of my fellow Virginians, but I'm quick to question things that stink of orientalism, and to try to find the real truth... my favorite description to use for my event... "Lets find the history behind the mystery"...
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: paper references

                    Wed, June 18, 2008 - 12:49 PM
                    I started with the basics and then I began to expirement and that led me to the direction that I have taken which is a new style of belly dance that I call Bene Gesserit. It is hard to get a new style of belly dance off the ground. People can hold onto sacred cow because it is a safe bet. I think that it is important to remeber the past the past but to look to the future. The only limmit is your imagination
                    • Re: paper references

                      Fri, June 20, 2008 - 5:17 PM
                      Rachel,

                      speaking as a Dune fanatic since the third grade, I am really interested in seeing what you're doing with that. Any chance of a youtube or similar?

                      My wife was really fascinated by the concept of saying one thing in words while secretly communicating much more complex ideas with finger gestures when I showed her the SciFi miniseries "Children of Dune" - she does a lot of work with mudras and analogous gestures from Indonesian and Chinese dance, incorporating them into her emerging styles.

                      For some reason I think of a Bene Gesserit dance as being very straight-backed, expressionless, and sacred in an utterly cold but 'expanded' way; hyper-historical dance, somehow.
                      • Re: paper references

                        Sat, June 21, 2008 - 12:50 PM
                        One of the main elements of Bene Gesserit belly dance is the pysical aspect. I teache six different ways to do hipcircles. They are all very different from each other. Their are also alot of power moves. many of them are done slowly, some are done fast. Their is also alot of layering.Lots of core work. For example I teach a double or mirrior belly rolls. One going up and one going down done at the same time. their is also the tripple shimmy layer that I teach That is three shimmies done at the same time. It is a very phisical expression and I was inspired by the Prana-Bindu. The emotional element though is very important, you are chaneling the emotion through the physical act. You can chanel dark or light energy. You can project out, or the performance can be a very intense self expression.Their is alot of elastisity to the expression. Music is also very important. One of the ways that I put music together is as a journey from the flesh to the spirit. One of the that I explore is the belly meditation.It is beautiful when done with a veil., is a very slow and intense expression. an example of the music that I use, am inspired by the concept of "voice" so I use Jim Cole albums. He does througt singing. I have used several pieces of his to perform to. Costume is important as well. What does the song or the mood, or the theam of the piece dictate?What do you want to express or explore? Open the window from the past and look into the future. If you have any other quetions feel free to email me , and I can always put a work shop together. Rachel/Zoso

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