The Greek connection?

topic posted Wed, January 31, 2007 - 8:58 AM by  offlineKeyna
I found you!! haha! Hello, I just joined.

Yesturday I was sitting in one of my India History classes and the prof made a comment about bellydancers in Greek restaurants. His wife is Greek and he claims there is no connection. So I got to thinking...

What connection does bellydancing have to Greece? Are they culturally connected? Why do we dance in Greek restaurants?

If you have insight or links, I would welcome them.
posted by:
Keyna
Vancouver
  • Re: The Greek connection?

    Wed, January 31, 2007 - 9:20 AM
    According to Chris Kalogerson, a musician who has played extensively in Greek restaurants, the link between belly dancing and Greek restaurants actually began in Alexandria, Egypt. Alexandria used to have a significant population of ethnic Greeks who owned restaurants and nightclubs that served the tourist industry. Because it was Egypt, dancers were part of the experience.

    During the 1950's, Egypt had a revolution where they threw out their Ottoman king and a socialist government arose under Nasser. At this time, many of the Greeks left because of two factors: 1) high level of nationalism in Egypt, meaning that people who weren't ethnic Egyptian were ostracized, and 2) socialist government wanting to take over ownership of private businesses. Many of these ethnic Greeks who left Egypt came to the U.S. and started restaurants in the U.S. that mirrored the successful business models they had in Alexandria, including that of featuring belly dancing.

    Which reminds me, I need to write up my interview of Chris and send it to Gilded Serpent....
    • Re: The Greek connection?

      Wed, January 31, 2007 - 9:43 PM
      Well Alexander the Great was from Macedonia after all... The Greeks and Romans influenced the ancient world by commece and invasion.
      • Re: The Greek connection?

        Thu, February 1, 2007 - 1:28 AM
        'Macedonia' and 'Macedonian' are really controvercial and complex terms, because lots of different ethnic groups view them differently, and it is the cause of a lot of conflict. Equating modern Greece with Ancient Macedonia isn't a particularly accurate thing to do. Ancient Macedon does roughly correspond with the region of Greece now known as Macedonia, but there's more to Greece than MAcedonia, and there's more to Macedonia than Greece:

        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace...inology%29

        Also I doubt the modern dance we call bellydance has it's roots as far back as ancient Greece and Rome. Certainly we don't have any evidence for that. If it did and the dance was spread across the world by virtue of their empires, Bellydance would have an extensive history in my country (the UK) and it doesn't.

        I tend to agree with Shira's comments, it's to do with population movement in the 20th century. I also wonder how much of it comes form immigrant populations interacting outside of their own countries, expecially in the US.
        • Re: The Greek connection?

          Thu, February 1, 2007 - 9:54 AM
          I beg to differ here.. According to Wikipedia.. And i put in quotes..
          "The Byzantine Greeks continued to call themselves Romans until their fall to Ottoman Turks in 1453. That year the Roman Empire was ultimately ended by the Fall of Constantinople. Constantine XI, emperor of the Byzantine Empire during 1453 is considered the last Roman emperor." And that is hardly in ancient times.
          The "Roman" empire influenced many countries and for many years.
          And then the Greeks might like belly dancing because it is fun? And it might make them a few extra dollars? It might have been ok for women of other cultures to dance in public?
          And the Arabs influenced alot of the Mediterrean from Turkey to Spain. Including Greece and Egypt. The Rom are also another factor when it comes to music and dance.
          I think the fact is that since there is no written or oral history of this form of dance we may never know why and how..
          • Re: The Greek connection?

            Fri, February 2, 2007 - 1:06 AM
            But do we actually have any evidence that links modern bellydance to the 13th century? Yes, the Roman empire did influence many countries for many years, in fact still does. The type of Urbanism we have in the UK (and has been taken to countries that were former colonies) is derived from the Roman Empire, it wiped out the settlement type we had in the late Iron Age (called 'Oppida' by the Romans) that we still do this day do not fully understand....but while there are thousands of Bellydancers in the UK now, it certainly did not evolve here.
    • Cat
      Cat
      offline 6

      Re: The Greek connection?

      Thu, February 1, 2007 - 12:46 PM
      I was viewing this thread on a different tribe site, and I must also thank you for this eye-opening response. While the article by Morocco did wonderfully touch on various 'styles' of raqs sharki, your quote from Chris Kalogerson was just what the doctor ordered as to explain the Greek restaurant & raqs sharki. Thanks, Shira!
      • Cat
        Cat
        offline 6

        Re: The Greek connection?

        Thu, February 1, 2007 - 12:52 PM
        And by the by...this fascinating and informative article by Morocco which I referred to, can be found here:
        www.casbahdance.org/OLDNEW.htm
        **Thanks goes to Julia whom shared this link with us in the other tribe site to begin with. *smile*
        • Re: The Greek connection?

          Tue, February 13, 2007 - 5:14 PM
          What a great thread!!

          Thanks for bringing up this topic and while I really don't have much too add to Shira's [excellent] response to the question, I would like to say that my own [local] dance community might not have even existed had it not been for the Greek community here. It was the Greek restaurants and 'bouzoukias' [Greek nightclubs] that put bellydancing on the 'map' in our city and this specific ethnic 'scene' was the single greatest influence on its development here over the past 30 years. Greek people in general, don't necessarily think of bellydancing as any kind of 'high art form'...at least not in the way that the professional dancers themselves might. Their attitude toward it all is rather casual at best, although they do enjoy the spectacle of it [but it's more about the music for them]. Besides, many Greek women tend to feel that it just comes 'natural' them anyway, "so what is the big deal?"

          I know from my own experience and long time involvement within the Greek restaurant scene [here], that bellydance shows had served a [very specific] purpose ....That of creating a diversion for diners [during that critical window of time] when the kitchen and server staff were swamped and needed time to catch up on orders. It was cheap, live entertainment [no hassles with unions or cabaret liscensing issues etc] AND..it was a nice little tax 'write off' too. This seemed to work very well for the establishments that hired dancers and it caught on.

          Nowadays, this same restaurant dancing scene seems to have gone by the wayside and there aren't near as many venues featuring bellydancing as there used to be. However, I did notice while visiting Greece a couple of years back, that there is alot of Arabic/Greek 'fusion' in music and pop culture going on there and arabic "pop" music was featured in the nightclubs everywhere we went. Lots and LOTS of "bellydance" style clothing was being donned by young women and sold at all the department stores. Interesting eh? BTW...a good source to go to on this subject is Chryssanthi Sahar, a professional dancer of Greek descent and who is based in Germany. Here is her website: www.chryssanthi.com/
  • Re: The Greek connection?

    Thu, November 15, 2007 - 8:47 AM
    Here's my Greek connection.
    I learned to dance in my early years from an Italo/Greek American. She grew up dancing in the Am Cab style and listening to Greek music. The music her father played came from the time of the Turkish deportation of several million people whom they considered to be ethnic Greeks in the 1920's. Some of those people had been living in Turkey for several centuries but their ancestors came from the other side of the Aegean and so they all got sent back. The whole idea is ridiculously tribal. It's been the same Empire for thousands of years and by that I mean covering roughly the same territory but under a different name. There have been influxes of other tribal groups but the ancestry still exists even if you add a new group to the mix.

    The culprit is Orientalism. I'm not talking about French painters and Whore-house tours of Islamic Nations either. I'm talking about the older definition of Orientalism as a practice in the Roman Empire wherein it was fashionable to claim that any kind of taboo activity participated in by the local population was labeled as "Orientale," "Eastern" and thereby exotic and acceptable. Polite society dictates now, as it did then, that such a dance can not be a native born tradition. That is why everybody claims it as coming from the "Mysterious East" when in actuality if you go far enough East... nobody has any idea what you're talking about. ("Oh you mean that Western dance?")

    Greek Tsifitelli is supposedly an old Pagan dance form, thats the lore anyway and that's really all we have to go on aside from Classical writings that give descriptions of such dances. You also have to take into account the idea of slavery accross the Med and comparative dance forms from all time periods in the region. There may be better reasons about why its more popular now than it has been in the recent past but to say that its never been there before and has no regional form connection is ridiculous.

    ~*Gen*~
  • Greeks in Egypt

    Fri, November 16, 2007 - 1:00 PM
    I'm slowly reading the new book Popular Egyptian Cinema by Viola Shafik.

    I have discovered that in the 1940's, about 80% of Egyptian movie theaters were owned by ethnic Greeks. This situation persisted until 1963 when Nasser's government nationalized the movie industry and kicked many foreigners (in ALL professions) out of Egypt.

    There was a Golden Age dancer in Egypt that some people refer to as Kitty, some as Ketty, some as Katie, who was a contemporary of Samia Gamal. One of the movies she appeared in was Ismail Yassin's Phantom (which you can buy at fineartfilm.com/index.php with English/French subtitles...) Anyway, I learned today from that same book that she was ethnic Greek. Apparently she left Egypt in the 1960's because of the movie industry becoming nationalized and foreigners being kicked out.

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