Do most women come to this art form in order to heal or 'redeem' a lost sense of sexual power? If so...then why is it that so much of the bellydancing community/industry is rife with puritannical sensibilities and harsh judgements with respect to the expression of this sexual power in the dance?
Is there some 'distinct' difference between Western/Anglo concepts of the erotic and sensual - and those of other cultures?
Question for everyone:
What is your definition of the following where this dance is concerned:
"naughty"?
"sleazy"?
"sexy"?
"sensual"?
"whore"?
Is there some 'distinct' difference between Western/Anglo concepts of the erotic and sensual - and those of other cultures?
Question for everyone:
What is your definition of the following where this dance is concerned:
"naughty"?
"sleazy"?
"sexy"?
"sensual"?
"whore"?
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sat, November 4, 2006 - 5:36 AM"Do most women come to this art form in order to heal or 'redeem' a lost sense of sexual power?"
I'm not sure, I suspect everybody has their own reasons for taking up this dance. I didn't, I just thought it looked like fun and I liked the costumes. It also looked like a dance form that I would be accepted into as an adult. I don't feel like I have lost my sense of sexual power and so I don't need to reclaim it
The bellydance community in the West walks a difficult line because of the history of the dance. Firstly this is a dance that has it's roots in another area of the world, and in that area of the world there have been major cultural and political changes which have altered the way that dancers are percieved in the dance's area of origin and in some areas have rendered it an illegal activity. This poses two problems to Western dancers, firstly there is the idea of being respectful to the roots of the dance and secondly being mindful of how the general population in the areas where this dance originated now perceive bellydance. Both of these lead bellydancers towards trying to stay away from sexual connotations in their dance because they could be pereceived as being disrestpectful.
Secondly there is the problem that in the West bellydance is often seen as something akin to erotic dancing and stripping and this means that bellydancers to get hassled by ignorant members of the public, and there have also been cases of people's professional reputations being marred when other people find out they bellydance. There is also the orientalist notion of 'loose exotic non-white woman' that goes with bellydance and even if people don't think that bellydance is the same as stripping they still think of it as something that can be consumed in a sexual way by the observer because of this. The response of dancers to this is to try to distance themselves from everything that is linked with erotic dance and stripping and this means that the sexual element of the dance is often lost. Also the history of the dance is amended to be non-sexual, and people talk more about it being empowering, being about sisterhood, for women, by women and so on, despite there being no historical evidence of this being a female only empowering dance. Tribal bellydance in particular, in it's traditional ATS format is very female focussed and the costuming is less sexual than beldah and the movements are less easy to see as 'sexual' as well. Carolina Nericcio herself has said that for her what is sexy is a powerful woman. The notion of sexiness in bellydance has shifted to something that isn't focussed on the body but elsewhere.
Finally, yes there is a puritanical element to some aspects of Western culture. I notice it a lot in the concerns that American dancers express on the internet about how their dance is perceived. Certainly here in Europe people are far less prudish, the country I live in (the UK) does not have a government that overtly expresses a wish for almost biblical laws and morality, Gay couples can marry, it is not trying to ban abortion, preaching abstinence as the only form of contraception and evolution is still part of the national science curriculum, and this is despite the fact that our Prime Minister is a practicing Christian himself. There is a vocal and politically powerful extreme conservative movement in America that we don't seem to have in Europe. I don't think the dancers themselves are guilty of being puritans though, I think they are just having to promote their dance in a way that is conservative culture friendly and this means that they don't feel that they can be sexual in their dance, that they can't discuss any elements that to them are sexual when talking to the press or general public because it will get misinterpretted. It is unfortunate as bellydance is undoubtly highly sensual, as I personally believe, all dance is.
"Is there some 'distinct' difference between Western/Anglo concepts of the erotic and sensual - and those of other cultures? "
Yes, inevitably. Humans are vastly varied animals socially. Culture is constructed by the people within it in a response to their landscape, climate, resources and other things that interact with them in their daily lives and so every culture is different. As a result what we see as sexual is different to what someone from another culture will see as sexual, and our attitudes towards sexuality will differ. In the West we see bellydance as being sexy because of the orientalist ideas, the scanty costumes (Which are no more scanty that latin dance costumes and some modern as well) and the undulating body movements. In the middle east ballroom dancing is considered incredably riske because it is a partner dance where people touch each other, and that is something quite taboo. I personally find that amusing ;) The West itself is not an amorphous mass of similarly thinking people, different countries have different ideas within it. Another thing to remember is that social dance in the Middle East has a strong fun and play element about it as well which can also be lost in the West in attempts to become a serious artform.
I'm not really sure I can define the words in relation to dance. Everybody's perceptions are going to be different and only a small element can take something from being sensual to being sleazy, and it depends on your location which is the more acceptable.
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sat, November 4, 2006 - 8:52 AMI don't think we can generalize that women come to this dance to heal or redeem their sexual power. I imagine some do, but most give other reasons. Some certainly discover such healing/redemption through the dance even if they came to the dance for other reasons, but others came to this dance already comfortable in their existence as sexual beings and didn't "need" the dance to help them express it.
At the level of the general public, the U.S. is deeply divided in its feelings about sexuality. On the one hand, pop culture (television, music videos, the fashions young girls wear) is openly sex-oriented. But on the other hand, there is a strong backlash against this from the conservative religious community - let's not forget that conservative religious people (both Christians and Muslims) existed in sufficient numbers to elect George Bush and a Republican Congress. Let's not forget that in some states of the U.S., it's legal for pharmacists to ask a woman about her marital status before filling her prescription for birth control, and to refuse on moral grounds to fill it if the woman is not married. This is the society in which we live, regardless of what our personal feelings may be about sexuality.
In many places, belly dancers still fight misconceptions by people who think it's the same thing as stripping, or people who think its message is "seducing the Sultan".
I know someone who spent months trying to convince the owner of a dance studio that teaches teen-agers to let her offer a teen belly dance class. When recital time came along a couple of months ago, the studio owner imposed more restrictive costume rules on what the belly dance students could wear than what she imposed on students of other dance types. The belly dancers were required by the studio owner to have covered-midriff costumes, while the jazz dancers wore sports bras and hot pants. My friend tried to persuade her to relax this double standard, but she refused.
Several times a year, I receive emails from teen girls who have been forbidden to perform belly dance in their school talent shows because it's "inappropriate". And yet, hip hop dancing is allowed in those same shows. Go figure.
When I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area, I had adult students who kept the fact that they were learning belly dance secret from their families because they didn't want to deal with disapproving reactions from their religious family members.
Last year, the city of Norfolk, Virginia imposed rigid laws regulating the performance of belly dance in public places, placing restrictions on costuming, music, acceptance of tips, etc.
As long as belly dancers continue fighting these morality-imposed restrictions on where they're allowed to teach, where they're allowed to perform, what they're allowed to wear when doing so, and so on, they are likely to apply puritanical sensibilities to how the dance is presented by fellow dancers. It's about protecting income opportunities for the pros and protecting amateur performance opportunities for the students. -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 2:34 AMHow interesting that you brought this up.
Last year, Turkish filmmaker, Huseyn Karagoz, visited Bloomington, IN, where I live, and he told me the same theory. He said, "what's up with American Tribal? I don't understand why they are ashamed of their sexuality. It seems to be stemmed from a Christian Puritanical background, especially with the new Gothic craze. You really can't get more Christian than "Gothic". "
Then he went on to say this, and I thought it was rather poignant:
"Muslim women are free (with their femininity/sexuality) on the inside, but they are not free on the outside. Christian women are free on the outside, but they are not free on the inside..."
What do you all think about that statement? -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 6:49 AM""Muslim women are free (with their femininity/sexuality) on the inside, but they are not free on the outside. Christian women are free on the outside, but they are not free on the inside..."
What do you all think about that statement? "
Firstly I would say that not all Western women are Christian, I am Western and not Christian, and it wasn't all that long ago that Christianity imposed restrictions on women that we associate with Islam these days and Christian extremists tend to view sex as being totally for procreation and nothing else, so I don't see how you can be free with your sexuality on the inside or the outside if that's all that is expected of you.
*Western* society allows, in fact expects, women to be sexually liberated on the outside, to dress in a certain way, present themselves in a certain way that is attractive by Western standards, but it is dependent on which Western subculture the woman belongs to whether or not they in fact are sexually liberated on the inside, and whether you consider the expectation of being constantly physically attractive in quite a narrow definition to in fact be freedom.
Women have fought to free themselves from the social and legal notion that they are mearly property and have no rights or personhood of themselves. The idea that they fulfil a role for their father of making a 'good marriage' and a role for their husband of being a 'good wife and mother' and nothing more. 100 years ago a young woman like me with no husband and no father would have been destitute, now I have a profession, own things, have a bank account, could own property if I could afford it and can vote. Unfortunately sex has kind of got caught up in that struggle. To a certain extent there is/has been a notion within feminism and its precursers that sex with men is part of the way that men subjugate women and that to be sexy is therefore a bad thing. As a result often Western society thinks that a woman who is involved in a trade that uses sex as a commodity or even dresses sexily and so on, has in some way cheapened herself or been cheapened by someone else. This has transfered onto the way we live our daily lives and so women who seek to be powerful do not consider that their own sensuality and sexuality could be a soure of power. Some women find sex very liberating and do seek to find power in that way, yet nowadays a woman who sleeps around, or uses sex as a tool or just wears short skirts and low cut tops is oftern considered a bit of a slapper.
There's also the private/public thing to consider. A woman who may not seem all that sexual in public may be does at home with her partner, just because that is her preference. In that case she would probably have more in common with the way Mr Karagoz sees Muslim women than the way he views Christian women. As I said in my comment above it's all subjective and I think we underestimate the differences between different cultures who maybe even speak the same language and listen to the same music. -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 7:57 AMHI Kathryn; thanks for your thoughtful reply :) I like it.
You are in Britain, though, and he was basing his opinion on the fact that America was founded by Puritans, a very certain branch of Christianity. Whether we adhere to these moral standards or not (I am not a Christian either!), I do believe that these Puritanical values are accepted by the mainstream, and therefore affect everyone.
Don't you think so? -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 11:15 AMNot being American, it's difficult to comment on American culture as I see it as an outsider rather than experiencing it on a day to day basis. I agree with Shira's comment above that there does seem to be a dichotomy between those who are very prudish, repressive, conservative etc and the highly sexualised mainstream entertainment culture that exists. In practice what i see is the latter, as that is what is exported to the rest of the world. While I am aware that the former also exists, as documentaries are made about it, it doesn't directly effect me as it's not something we really have in my country to the degree that you have in America. It gives out 'mixed messages' which makes the American attitude to sex quite hard to judge.
I don't think the current conservative end of the spectrum is around *because* America was partly founded by Puritans. It is possible for a country's politics and beliefs to develop away from what it had in the past and American society has been influenced by the cultures of all the other people who go to make up it's population. That said the evangelical christians that are around today do have a lineage, religiously speaking from the puritan settlers of the 1600s. However while the Puritans did play a part in the founding of America, they didn't appear out of thin air, they came from England, and indeed following our civil war they ruled England for a little while (banning Christmas and everything!). While royalty was re-established, the uprising, war and their rule totally changed the way the country was governed and is the reason why we now have a parliament and constitutional monarchy. Indeed many of the puritans who originally went to America actually came back to England during the civil war as they didn't fear persecution anymore. Despite the strong influence of the puritans in the history of both countries, currently the UK and the US are very different and have different views on the issue of sexuality as well. -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 11:30 AM"America" was aslo founded by the French and the Spanish..
And there were Dutch and Irish and Polish and Ukranians and Chinese and etc etc etc...
I think you're statement is a bit too biased.. North American is a very big place.. There are many many cultures that influenced our development.. Especially so in Canada.. -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Mon, November 6, 2006 - 1:48 AMA quote from my previous comment:
"...and American society has been influenced by the cultures of all the other people who go to make up it's population"
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 11:32 AMSo please don't lump Canada into "America" .. We are a separate country with separte founding fathers. If you want to talk about the Puritans .. They where some of the founding fathers of the United States... -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 12:02 PM>>So please don't lump Canada into "America" ..
>>We are a separate country with separte founding fathers.
>> If you want to talk about the Puritans ...
>>They where some of the founding fathers of the United States...
Uh, actually..this isn't quite so. The histories of both countries are inextricably 'intertwined'. Their cultures bear more similarities than differences. They evolved along similar lines and the so called "founding fathers" are from the same "good ol boys" club and a lot of 'deals' were made to create these entities we now call Canada and the US. -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 12:19 PMI beg to differ.. The French were are war with the English for a good many years..
Canada is a very different country than the USA is for many many reasons. I am Canadian and i am proud of it.. Back to belly dance.. Like ethnic differences you can't lump all the reasons that people dance or dont' dance into one group..
I do have a friend who would not tell anyone in her family that she was taking "belly dance" classses..
She has come to terms with it now and almost everyone but her ex husband knows... Belly dance was one of the ways the "rebelled" from a controlling relationship.
I don't hold back what kind of dance i take and why.. I enjoy it.. It's fun ... And it's good exercise.
I have met very nice women thru it.. And learned some things about other countries and thier history too. I don't think some things really need to be over analized.. Somethings are just for fun..
TTYS, KathleenA -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Tue, December 26, 2006 - 1:25 PMAside from the historical / cultural distinctness of Canada and America - "Bellydance" is an American art form.
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 11:39 AMYou ladies bring up some very interesting points. This kind of dialog is what I was rather hoping for on this thread. Please keep it coming. It's so important to be able to discuss an issue like this, openly, without restraint. All opinions are welcome.
'Sexiness' in the dance has always been a bit of a personal conundrum for me as I struggled all my life with the whole image of bellydancing, what its really saying about me and how the world is recieving it - and having to walk a very fine line between the "exotic/erotic" and the "tasteful/artful".... But as a teacher, I encounter many students who claim outright that they are indeed looking to discover and experience something of the "sexual/erotic" - through the vehicle of bellydancing. I myself, do not feel that bellydancing has made me any more or less sexy or sexual. But this is not the case for many others who seem to be chasing something *magical-mystical & elusive* in that regard. Too many woman have conveyed to me over the years, their profound sense of something being 'wrong' or 'missing' in their sexuality, something that bellydancing seems to remedy for them. I have also noticed lately, that many women these days don't seem as brave and open about sexual expression as [it seemed] they used to be during the 60's and 70's for example - And in spite of all the blatant smuttiness depicted in [corporate] pop culture media...I have sensed that society as a whole, has actually become more conservative than ever. We seem to have become a more 'shame based' society as finger-wagging-nanny-state politics have been shaping our morality, along with the growing trend of religious fundamentalism from all sectors. And as a result, much of our social interactions have become emotionally [and sexually] rigid. I call it the "Dr Laura" syndrome..LOL! Has anyone else noticed this too?
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing? and ATS
Sat, November 25, 2006 - 3:46 PMI think American Tribal is very sensual and sexy in it's own way. The "gothic craze" isn't new, it stems from the darker elements of music and perhaps showing your "dark" side, and started in the late 70's early 80's. It wasn't called "gothic" until I think the early 90's. I used to call it "death rock" until someone started calling the subculture "gothic".
When I mention belly dance to anyone, especially men, they think hoochie coochie sexy or this silly smile comes over their face and they want me to dance for them, like I was a stripper doing a lap dance. Now, I was a stripper for a year and I have to tell you, it's not sexy, it doesn't promote sex, it promotes judgment, drinking, and what men want us to be. I know I'm an attractive girl, but the clients can be very mean if you don't fit into the "stripper" body type, good little bad girl image. I found my self worth plummeting, and was drinking just to put up with being turned down, not making as many tips as some girls, etc. The only thing I liked about it was dancing on stage in costume.
Not a one of the women and girls I take belly dance with is ashamed of their sexuality. I think it's just that they want belly dance to be seen as a legitimate dance form. If anything I see shy women suddenly exposing their midsections and being comfortable in their own bodies, skinny, fat, old, young. It's empowering. -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing? and ATS
Sat, November 25, 2006 - 4:17 PMThank you Ashtara, for sharing that little tidbit about the reality of being in the exotic dance business. I couldn't agree with you more! What you said about "plummeting self worth" is right on the money!..And this is precisely why I wouldn't encourage young women to get into that business. As much as I champion the right to a healthy & robust sexuality and the open honest expression of this, I also know that much of what *passes* for "sex/sexiness/sensual/erotic" is in fact the very ANTI thesis of it. Now good "theatre art" is quite another thing. For example with burlesque. It is the art of subtle 'suggestion' that I find most intriguing [and from what many men have divulged to me over the years] is the thing they find 'sexiest' of ALL. But I will have to say that even this still lacks the depth of 'feeling' that Oriental dance engenders. And its in this act of 'surrender' to pure, unadulterated 'feeling' that a woman is at her most powerfully erotic [and also frightening to the male psyche].
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing? and ATS
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 7:07 AMI also stripped for a time. I didn't do it long enough to get depressed by it. It is a FANTASY trip for men. The men would ask me questions between sets when I had to sit at the bar. What they asked me was never anything practical but things that would make it easier for them to fantasize about me. They wanted to fit me into the film in their heads.
I am definitely NOT the model type or ideal of beauty or even all that attractive physically. I made good money even with slower shifts (the Brazilian girls has the best shifts). It was so easy. Sometimes I felt like I was stealing from these rather pitiful men. It did give me a sense of power in my sexuality.
But then, I didn't do it long.
Oriental dance gives me a sense of strength and power in myself. It is connect with my sexuality but not soley sexual.
I dance who I am. It's about my strength and I have more facets than just the sexual one.
Women are sexual creatures by nature. Much of a woman's strength comes from her sexual center. Christianity and Islam have perverted that. Politically, they had to if they wanted to take power and change the then, political power structure. We are still dealing with the fall-out 2000 or so years later.
In America, like most other places, there are many factors. I came from a very sex positive home. Yet, I stopped dancing in 80's, with the resurgance of conservativism as well as the change in direction my life was taking anyway.
Yes, there is a lot of religious conservatism in the USA but in Europe, I find Polish dancers to be dealing with some of the same problems only they are usually not so aware of their own sexual judgemental-ness. I run into some of that in Czech but it is not as strong. It is more of an undertone to what the women learn growing up.
Let's also not forget advertising and capitalism. If you feel you are missing something in your life, you will spsend money to change that feeling. Ever read those women's magazines that build you to how great you can be but first you need to,.... And these are the articles! I think that women who's lives are not inundated with this often are more self confident.
The conclusion is the same... There are different shades of grey in all our lives. In every country/culture/home.
As well as lots of ignorant people who want us, as dancers, to be their fantasy! (surely there are easier ways to seduce a man -or sultan than by dancing for him!)
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Wed, December 20, 2006 - 9:04 AM>>"Muslim women are free (with their femininity/sexuality) on the inside, but they are not free on the outside. Christian women are free on the outside, but they are not free on the inside..."
What do you all think about that statement?<<
Brilliant. I'd change the focus from religious to cultural, though: the christianization of western women (esp. in america) is pretty much a given; the wildest commune-raised pagan american is still essentially a *subject* of christian culture, even if only via reaction.
It's always alternately annoyed and amused me that AT seeks to vilify sexual response to dance, and sought to dress its form in historicity or "authenticity" in the face of this dissonance. Bluntly put, I think it's neurotic and narcissistic to attach pre-judgment to the responses of people (men) watching dance. If you have a very specific idea of what someone should be feeling while you dance, I suggest dancing alone or in tightly controlled groups - without seeking to perform publicly. It's a perpetuation of the vilification of male sexuality to dance for them and then punish them for watching.
For me, it goes without saying that ATS is an example of the strangely dichotomous effects of sustained puritanism adapting to a plural cultural milieu. If it didn't rankle me as much as it does, I'd probably be fascinated by it on a purely historical level.
"Eastern women are free (with their femininity/sexuality) on the inside, but they are not free on the outside. Western women are free on the outside, but they are not free on the inside..."
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 12:24 PMSince you asked about the distinction between Western concepts of the sensual and others, here are some statements I heard in July from several different Egyptians:
An Egyptian man boasted to me when I was in Egypt in July that his brother had hired Dina to dance at his son's wedding, and it cost 9,000 Egyptian pounds (which is a HUGE amount of money to a working-class Egyptian). He then immediately said that he didn't like Dina because her choice of costuming and dance moves was MUCH too sexual. He said he much preferred Samia Gamal because she was so much more ladylike. In other words, people will hire Dina because doing so allows them to show the world they can afford the very best, but at the same time they dislike her because of her overt sexual come-on style of dance.
An Egyptian woman, now in her 60's, lives here in our city. She was a panelist in a discussion we had when Mahmoud Reda came to our city in July. She told me privately that she refuses to watch belly dancing because it's too sexual, too much of a come-on. And yet she is very, VERY enthusiastic about Reda Troupe. She said Reda Troupe shaped the way her entire generation viewed Egyptian dance.
An Egyptian man from the same generation, an MD, sat at the same dinner table as Mahmoud Reda and told another person sitting at the table, "This man, for the first time, made Egyptians proud of our dance." Reda was so pleased by the compliment that he repeated it to me when I interviewed him 2 days later.
And here's what Mahmoud Reda says about raqs baladi (the name he uses for the folk dance movement vocabulary upon which the belly dance performing art is based): "For some reason, this dance became more naked and more exaggerated. The bad reputation of the nightclub dance in Egypt is due to the nakedness and the exaggeration of the belly and other parts. The dancer has nothing to say, no story, no theme, just sexy movements. It’s abstract." -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 2:32 PMExcellent info..!! Thank you Shira, for sharing this stuff.
I found the comment by Reda re raqs baladi becoming "more naked and more exaggerated" to be particularly interesting and it makes me quite curious about how this came to be... how various evolutionary 'lines' of bellydancing [may have] converged ...and how 'baladi' and 'oriental' are so closely associated [or even interchangeable] within a performance of modern raks sharqi. Do you think it might be the "oriental" part of the equation that's responsible for all the "sexy" stuff? -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 5:05 PMI think it's the baladi part; oriental origin is always disputed, but you cannot deny that Egyptian Oriental is a combination of baladi with some cultures that have crossed its path, Ghawazee and Turkish, to name a few.
Based upon Shira's comments, I would say that Huseyn was right, at least about the Muslim woman part.
I do believe that Dina is a portryal of this: she is free on the inside, and free on the outside, and that is very threatening to the Arabic concept of honor/shame, which is so integral to every Arabic culture, not just Egyptian. She has taken how women "really" dance at home, and put it on stage! For shame!!!!!
Why is a woman's sexuality so shameful? That is the part that just doesn't feel right to me. I understand how it fits into their world paradigm, but it's not mine. I feel that most women are "homeless" when it comes to their soul; bellydance helps one to make their body their home, and however one chooses to do it, repressed or not, at least one is trying... -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 5:35 PMAlso, something that Dina said in her workshop that I LOVED, was: "now that we are behind closed doors I can tell you the TRUTH. It is NOT 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8. That is folkdance, and women's solo improvised dance is NOT folkdance. It is all ONE, one movement. It is art, and you are free to do as you choose in your art".
Bravo, Dina!!!! I loved her for saying that.
She had this little clutch purse that had a woman painted on it who was seen from behind, her curvy deriere showcased. She said that in Italy she spoke at a convention about bellydance, and the people at her table kept turning over her purse to hide the woman, and she kept turning it back over!!!! God I love her for that.
It took me a long time to come to terms with her art, but there is a reason she appeals to the young Egyptians, whereas Reda appealed to the young people of his generation : she is the embodiment of the Lover and the Beloved at once. Just read some Rumi poetry, and you will see, she is not just about sex, she is about Love. Real love. The kind of love that we all crave, and some find and some never find on this Earth. She touches our souls and brings us to tears, and I really could care less now if she fits the honor/shame paradigm on stage or not. One must know the rules in order to know where and how to break them. -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 7:16 PMGawd that was just so well said, Katya...!!! Thank you for bringing it all "home"to the concept of "Love" , the desire for love and a woman's 'soul in exhile'. Fabulous! -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 8:30 PMThanks, Sarita!!!
I do believe that Dina is just so above and beyond our mental constructs of what dance *should* be. Let's not forget that Reda did train her; she knows the folkdances of Egypt, but they were not enough for her to express her soul. While it is important to be trained in "patterns", as I call them, or "motifs", as they are called in mythology, there is a point where you need to stop thinking logically, and just dance!!! What I hate more than anything is a dancer who is over-choreographed, and makes me think too hard (I have been guilty of this, so that's why I hate it now!). I want to be put into a trance, I want to have my heart and soul call upon the memories of my life and beyond. That is the feminine approach, to focus on substance, while the masculine approach is to focus on form and structure. Whose dance is this anyway??? Men's or women's??? -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 8:50 PM<<What I hate more than anything is a dancer who is over-choreographed, .......
And I was beginning to think that I was alone in that respect. WORD.. Nice to hear it.
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Tue, November 28, 2006 - 8:08 PMKatya -
I have been trying to put into words what you said about Dina for months. AWESOME! Thanks for saying what I felt but couldnt voice.
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 7:21 AMA woman's sexuality is shameful because it was not only celebrated but at the heart of the religions in the Middle East, Anatolia, Eastern Mediteranian, and much of Egypt when the Hebraic people started to change the system from Matriarchal to Patriarchal. This change took a long time as it was well entrenched (about 7000 years of this "fertility cult" before Christ). Acheologists, historeans, linguists,... There is so very much evidence and much of it is enterpreted through the lense of Christianity in it's more modern form.
A woman who is not ashamed of her sexuality is harder to control. It is harder to know who is the father of her children.
If you look at religion and history in a more purely political way, many things become clear,..
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Sun, November 5, 2006 - 7:06 PMHave any of you seen this?
web.mac.com/pnorris/iWeb...%20gamal.html
Aside from the fact that it's the great Samia Gamal, how does this portrayal of the dance affect your sensibilities?
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Mon, November 6, 2006 - 4:29 AMThis is an interesting topic.
I don't want to redeem sexual power but I love a dance that makes the middle of the body move in such an intriguingly beautiful way. It is more interesting than a dance that looks like steps or travelling over ground would be the most important things. And I love the music.
I can't talk about the US. But it seems schizophrenic that professionals have to stress that bellydance is not sensual in order to escape bad labelling or sort of prohibition because it is very sensual. I think our culture is not used to the combination of art and erotism. If a woman looks erotic when dancing it is automatically supposed to be something sleazy. If a latin woman dances she is supposed to be aesthetical-erotical in her moves if not she would not be considered a good dancer - am I wrong, Sarita? The erotical aspect as a part of life and beauty of the human being, natural but artful.
How it would look like depends on the dancer and on the situation. Stage is a different situation than dancing for a small crowd or dancing even for a single person. And the individual dancer will decide with his/her style, expression, personality what notion to give to the dance. Sexual provocation can be quite humourous, playful, ironical and an ok element within the dance. But it is very perceptible if a dancer respects the art or else uses the inherent sexuality of this art just to turn on spectators of the opposite sex.
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Mon, November 6, 2006 - 2:28 PM>>>I can't talk about the US. But it seems schizophrenic that professionals have to stress that >>>bellydance is not sensual in order to escape bad labelling or sort of prohibition because it is very sensual.
I couldn't agree more with this statement. I too have always wondered why this seems to be the case.
>>>If a latin woman dances she is supposed to be aesthetical-erotical in her moves if not she would >>>not be considered a good dancer - am I wrong, Sarita?
Hehe....Ju got it meng..!!!! In my culture, a woman who does not portray this 'aesthetic' when she performs on stage, whether singing, dancing or acting..would be considered a bit of a 'freak'. However, the conditions under which she would be [allowed] to express this 'inherent and natural' quality would be somewhat restricted due to the fact that my culture is greatly influence by something called "machismo" . Some might refer to this as "deference to the male prerogative"...and this not unlike the Arab culture. -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Tue, November 7, 2006 - 2:28 PMIn the machismo countries women are supposed to be more sexy (but then on the other hand the relationship thing is maybe more restrictive - like in catholic Spain).
I think it is more accepted for a woman to be breathtakingly erotical than not to take her time for doing herself up, but to work and to earn more money and to ask for higher social standing than her husband. I think that is much more upsetting for the good old machistas. -
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Wed, November 8, 2006 - 3:47 AMand the machistas are everywhere...
But to continue my thought: yes Sarita that is right, whereever a woman is too self-confident either because of her job qualification, intelligence or else because she is conscious of her erotical power machista-men wish to oppress her. They want the sexy woman to be a prey, not a predator. If a woman is displaying the ability of manipulating her environment /audience, especially the male audience, she's in control, thus dangerous and to be removed from the scene.
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Re: Puritan Morality & Repressed Sexuality In Western Bellydancing?
Thu, November 9, 2006 - 11:39 PM"If so...then why is it that so much of the bellydancing community/industry is rife with puritannical sensibilities and harsh judgements with respect to the expression of this sexual power in the dance? " –Sarita
The bellydancing "community" appears to be made up primarily of women. The bellydancing "industry" seems to be made up primarily of men.
I'm painting with a broad brush here...But here goes:
The bellydancing community tends to be supporting of a woman seeking to redeem her sexuality. That is generally not considered a threat to another dancer. What may be a threat however is a woman's sensuality -- the beauty that she elicits. One who speaks one moment of "sisterhood" may attack the confidence of another dancer the next moment. She doesn't want sisterhood. She didn't come to bellydance to redeem her lost sense of sexual power. She came to abuse her power with crazymaking behaviors. When the so-called sisters refuse to bow down and walk away, she has no idea why. She always thought of herself as a benevolent dictatrix, after all.
The industry meanwhile tends to be made up of male business managers, shady restaurant owners, male club owners or even drunk fraternity brothers hiring a bellygram dancer. Sadly, the history of bellydance is often that of pimp and prostitute. A smart independent dancer with no sexual hangups whatsoever can even find herself victimized by shady practices, lies and mixed