With all the recent media attention that has been given to bellydancing, the steep rise in public interest and the new bellydance 'star maker' machinery churning out one diva after another - there seems to have been new 'archetypes' created, which are exerting their influences on the bellydance of today. Who do you think are the modern day 'archetypes' of bellydancing and what new meaning [ie values & characteristics ] does each one bring to the dance and how do they achieve this?
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Fri, February 23, 2007 - 1:25 PMSarita: I don't feel there are any new archetypes,
I thought about it and...the answer is still no.
It is kinda sad...oh well, maybe something will
come up later that I could add to this,
maybe another tribeswoman has
something she can add.
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, February 27, 2007 - 3:28 AMSarita, me too I think that if there are at all new archetypes it would be the expectation of a bellydancer to be an ageless telegenic top-model. I suppose that Lebanese and Turkish TV anyhow promote the perfect or perfectly tuned beauties, but I like the old Egyptian approach better, were individuality and maturity both in age as in personality are accepted in a dancer, this is far wiser because it only can add to the dance. -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, February 27, 2007 - 10:12 AMOy. I just got a mental picture...Barbie in a bedlah.
What a sad thing to try to live up to, but Nuria I think you are right. -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, May 22, 2007 - 5:59 PMOn the Barbie in a bedlah theme arrgh,
thanks for adding that :
This just in- How about "Ugly Betty" in a bedlah?
(the actress in "real life" & in the show is actually quite lovely
but they want us to think she is ugly- weird eh?)
(Oh don't forget the "I Dream of Jeannie" imagery)
I think we can create some "newer" or revived archetypes
by feeling & being beautiful from the inside out,
breaking some of these codes and cultural conditioning
negative programming & "The Beauty Myth" (title of a book too).
Ancient (and modern) art depicts Woman in many shapes/sizes.
We can imagine and channel some into our dance
like Isis, Durga, Tara. Through the dance in some
ways we become a modern archetypal embodiment
of the ancient roots of dance & myth.
I feel the pre-Classical periods of the Near, Middle, Far East, India,
Africa, Greece, Turkey, Persia still stand. What magnificently rich
histories that will never be again...........sigh.
Young dancers should study that, all Oriental dancers
should draw from that in part.
Just a Ques. How many have seen "an average looking dancer"
(not referring to anyone in particular, nothing personal)
who wins the crowd with her amazing dance skills &
spirited attitude, and then an absolutely "drop dead beauty"
(not mentioning any names & nothing personal)
who may be nice to look at but yet lacks refined skill & substance
somehow, perhaps because they haven't ever had to or chosen to develope that.
That is one extreme to the other, but then there is a grey
area as there always is........that's where most of the modern dance is I reckon.
As people move farther and farther away from personal contact, that diminshes
in the arts too, including dance.
"Everyone proceeds accordng to their true Nature"
Then I would add "according to how much they break away from the status quo".
Whoa- nope I won't be crossing the Cdn. border anytime soon hehe.
I am still trying to figure it out- to wear false eye-lashes or not to wear them...
how far do we need to go or do we want to go there because it is kinda fun
getting all dressed up living a dream (ahlam) fantasy for awhile......Hmmmm........
yadda yadda yadda : )
"It's your thing, do what you wanna do.."
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Wed, May 23, 2007 - 2:46 AMI think that's why I'm in it. :-))
I know the local dancers and some of them were successful without being such stunning beauties. But there is, on the other hand, an obsession with tanned women. And I'm fairly white-skinned. If I'd try to make a living on bellydance I'd have a problem with that. -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Wed, May 23, 2007 - 6:26 AMI've often felt the pressure to try to be "barbie in a bedlah".. but I can never be that... Not just physically, but its just not who I am. I've been very lucky and had the great pleasure of seeing some amazing dancers who were not Barbies, not slim, not all that pretty really... But absolutely stunning when they danced.
Just this weekend, at a Women of Selket workshop, in the evening show, one of the ladies who usually makes the announcements got up and danced. She said she hadn't danced in 5 years, but was going to get up and do it because her troupe asked her to. She completely captured the entire room.. not teeny, not a model, not even in traditional bedlah.. but a black top and pants with a hip scarf... she had every person in the room smiling and engaged, her personality reached out and touched every one of us!! I had no idea, I had never seen her dance, and I was floored!! I want to be like that...
I want that kind of power and oomph, that people want to see me dance, no matter what I look like at the time... I know there are more women out there like that, and I'm proud to be a part of something that gives any of us that kind of ability. The ability to stand proud, to love ourself and share joy with the audience. No matter what the Barbies are doing.... -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Thu, May 24, 2007 - 12:42 PMCame back today to this topic, after thinking about it further... Trying to think of it from outside the dance world's point of view... As someone who hasn't taken classes or seen movies, or had any influence on their opinion other than the media, I would think they would expect every bellydancer to be:
1: pretty
2. Slim/slender/ very athletic
3. dressed in either bedlah or tribal fusion
4. have long hair
5. extremely talented and able to do many "tricks"... eye catching isolations
If they have seen a dancer at a party or in a nightclub, i would assum most are hired on what will please their customers, so they would seemingly be pretty and athletic, as that is what the general public seems to expect. IMHO, the public/general audience seems to really like to see someone dancing to something bouncy, peppy, quick and lively; or something slow that feeds into some form of orientalist fantasy... i'm just talking from what i've heard people say and from my own observations... it may be different in locations other than where i live.
but once you start with the classes, and you begin accumulating videos and scouring youtube, and going to workshops and shows... and you immerse yourself in the dance culture.. there is so much more that you see... your eyes are opened to people's talent and not just how they look....
I think this is where community outreach things are helpful.. for instance, we did mini-shows in our local mall... no big stage, just an open location with amplified music (they said no to drums )... but it let the general public see the age variations and height and weight variations, as well as different styles and types of music and dance.. i know that when it was my turn (and i'm a BIG girl) there were people who just stopped walking altogether and just stared.. shocked... but i did what was in my heart and danced what i felt, and feel that maybe i challenged their stereotype that day, because i got just as much applause as everyone else. i definitely was not/ am not what they expect to see when they hear the term "bellydancer"... but i'm changing that stereotype every time i get up on stage and do my thing :)
So, in a nutshell... since i diverged so far from the original topic... I think our archetypes are driven by the current societal norms, and not so much by what we, as actual dancers, would expect.
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 6:53 PMI also want to catch up with this chat:
Nuria your pale skin is actually a novelty
in the Near and Middle East. An example-
Venus, one of our local fair skinned ones,
I remember her with this fabulous
nude coloured costume that almost
blended with her creamy flawless skin, it worked!
Anyways, back to the latest talk, ya I hear ya on the Shakira/Beyonce thing
(Beyonce is 'belly dancing'?) I haven't seen that yet.
The teen students do love their Shakira and "want to dance like that",
so I work it a bit and use a song or two but in my style,
much more Spanish-Arabic with more flow between the moves.
I will take what they are seeing and
use it to help expand their vision of themselves.
What are some more of the solutions we can come up with?
How can we help to counter this pressure?
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 3:56 AM*Excellent* focus, Genya.
Some Natacha Atlas might be a good wean - she's got the slick pop edge with a strong grounding in classics.
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 3:49 AM"Nuria your pale skin is actually a novelty
in the Near and Middle East. An example-
Venus, one of our local fair skinned ones,
I remember her with this fabulous
nude coloured costume that almost
blended with her creamy flawless skin, it worked!"
I see that pale skin is no problem or even appreciated anywhere where it is not dominant. But for here, people just like dark women, because it makes them remember their holidays, because they dream of that girl back in Spain with the glowing eyes and they imagine her to be fatal and temperamental...all those clichés work in a largely monoracial society.
Thing is, a costume in the same colour of your skin would make people wonder if you're dressed at all...but true again, nude is a wonderful colour!
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Mon, June 4, 2007 - 8:58 PMQuick edits, looking at the floor while shimmying, and no actual *belly*. As in: where is it? I don't see it. It's concave.
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 12:29 AM>>>looking at the floor while shimmying, and no actual *belly*. As in: where is it? I don't see it. It's concave. >>>
BWAhahahahahaaaaa!!!!!
Gawd Loki...where have U been??? -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 2:07 AMOh, the usual. I got hired by the World Bank on a project involving the move to halt the progression of the AIDS pandemic in Africa. It's stressful - grueling, really - but it's one of the most ethically solid and morally right jobs I've ever had in the video field, and that feels good.
I think there is an archetype emerging - as you can probably guess, I'm really not enthused by / happy with it. I'll focus on one particular video I've seen with two of the fresh ersatz-"belly"-divas at play:
I have no problem with Shakira. I have no hate for Beyonce. None at all. However, I don't think they're *in control* of what they're creating; I don't think they're the ones manipulating the symbols we're seeing. Obviously, there's a certain inevitability to that, an inexorable nature to the change...
....and a definite familiarity to what they're embodying.
Let me see if I can trot this out without getting too many tomatoes thrown at me:
They look like whores.
All right, seethe for a minute and consider what I'm saying (remember, too; I'm a totally (wwweeellllll, you know, *predominantly*) hetero guy with a libido the size of NY (the state). I *love* watching women dance.
I'm also aware of history enough to know that sexual servitude is closely involved with the history of "bellydance" per se, and that "skin dancers" were largely responsible for importing and maintaining this area of forms that grew into what we now think of as Belly, per se.
I don't even care about the costumes (although the same'ol' same'ol shiny pants and heavily produced makeup does kid of bore me) all that much. I think variation in the costuming is really necessary at this point, actually, because I've definitely grown tired of seeing the same gear (goth variation on bosnian wedding gown, harem togs, 1950s star trek hats, the "twin-poof" hairballs &c.) but, when on video:
*Must* they *always* be the same costumes whores wear?
I'm not trying to take away women's power, I'm not trying to say femininity is vulgar - I'm asking "what is the impact? What is the message? What will people be calling 'bellydance' in the years to come, now?"
Shakira knows a few moves. Beyonce is picking them up, I guess. But:
they suck at it. No flow. No string. No line. No *connection* to the dance, just:
move / edit / move again / edit / that same move / edit / edit / cut. LAME. Their arms suck. Their faces are slack and not engaging. They look, frankly, *drugged* - the way (see the pattern?) that whores in vegas look: slack, uninterested, dolled up but graceless, untalented, disconnected from *life* -
bah. So, yeah: that's the New Archetype, as I see it. It isn't "prostitute" or "sex professional" or "empowered woman embodying her sensuality as a source of strength" - it's whores, on drugs, trying to be titillating, and failing at it. A shame, because I thought both of them were pretty hot once upon a time. Now I just smirk and hope the fad dies out so that really disciplined and dedicated dancers might get some attention. The best dancers don't get enough attention: the most whorish get more than is healthy. -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 6:15 PMhmmm.. whorish is too harsh of word. The first definition listed on dictionary.com for whore is: a woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse, usually for money; prostitute; harlot; strumpet. I think your choice of word went too far. I also think accussing them of being on drugs is a bit much.
Shakira has actually been dancing for quite sometime. I wouldn't say she is the best dancer in the world, but I think she has some solid moves. I think its good to keep in mind that this video is a music video with a few bellydance moves sprinkled in. The only thing I did not particularily careful were Beyonce's undulations by the wall at the end of the video. Here is the youtube link if anyone is interested: www.youtube.com/watch The part where they dance a short chroeography together is acutally pretty nice.
Could you please elaborate on this and/or provide a reference:
I'm also aware of history enough to know that sexual servitude is closely involved with the history of "bellydance" per se, and that "skin dancers" were largely responsible for importing and maintaining this area of forms that grew into what we now think of as Belly, per se.
I have heard this thrown around before, but I would like to know your source.
I do not think Shakira, Beyonce or "whores" are the embodiment of Modern Belly dance. I don't think that there really is an archetype. I would said that someone like Rachel Brice, Ansuya or Jillina would be the closet thing to an archetype in Modern Belly dance. -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 1:47 AMI don't see where Loki accused these ladies of being on drugs and I can totally appreciate much of what he's saying with regard to young women in show business emulating [and furiously so] "whores"....drugged and disconnected from feeling, life and even a semblence of natural sexuality. I sometimes get a bit of this same impression from some bellydance performances. I have absolutely NO problem with "sexiness" in the dance where a beautiful young woman may display her charms [and that men would be pleased by what they saw]. But when its all become so weird and creepy anymore I have to ask many of the same questions - one of which is [and Loki, I think you'll appreciate this one]:
What is REALLY going on in 'the land of Oz' ..and just WHO does it serve?? -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 3:47 AM>>What is REALLY going on in 'the land of Oz' ..and just WHO does it serve?? <<
**Exactly**, Sarita. It's the old "Que bono?" again.
To me it's all too clear that a producer (or her/his assistant) looked around and thought "Hey - we could exploit this whole emerging bellydance thing, take all the hard work right out of it, put it in some leather, shoot it up with speedballs, and pay it lots of money to be a whore... better do it quickly before the youngsters get the idea they can do it any other way than the way *we* sell it to them."
Having worked for these people a bit too often, I may be jaundiced. Maybe.
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 3:30 AM>>hmmm.. whorish is too harsh of word.<<
Is it? I disagree. It's better than just "prostitutish" because I was seeking to convey strong disdain and, if possible, denigrate the image being presented with as much force and brevity as possible.
And I wasn't at all suggesting either of the people in specific question are on drugs: that's totally not my business. I am saying, though, they're making the "drugged whore" face and that's something I can comment on with a certain degree of knowledge. I invoked the Vegas-whoreface specifically because I'm familiar with it, having worked for about a year in Vegas and living in the Hilton on the strip. Whores on drugs all over the place, in there.
>>Could you please elaborate on this and/or provide a reference<<
I think that would be (has been?) a good topic for a separate thread, but in brief, and without treading into the part where we all argue which theory is the "true" one, I think it's inarguable that women were employed (or forced) to dance in a sexual manner for entertainment for quite a while before "Raqs Sharqi" was ever 'codified'. Sheiks in the ancient world (for instance) wanted their guests to understand that their wives were beautiful, skilled, and obedient.
The same basic dynamic can be seen in the history of Indian dance, in which prostitutes performed poetry and dance to excite the passions of visitors.
My suggestion is certainly *not* that "the dance is one of prostitutes" or "for slaves" but only that there is a strong historical link to sexual servitude and the evolution of the dance forms now evident in western-adopted bellydance.
Regarding the importing of Baladi / Sharqi into western dance culture, there's the chestnut about "Sol Bloom, entertainment director of the 1893 World's Fair, the World Columbian Exposition in Chicago" and the mystery of Little Egypt, then the subsequent spread of "shimmy and shake" / "hoochie coochie" which, by me, I'm surprised anyone could doubt was directly absorbed from Raqs Sharqi.
There's a wealth of this information all over the web, but the availability of serious books on the historical aspect is pretty limited. "Looking for Little Egypt" has been mentioned; I think that's a good book for revealing some interesting trends in historical misinterpretation where dance is concerned.
Thank goodness for Ibrahim Farrar (B.U.H., P.O.H.S. 4ever&ever)!
Look for Ibrahim Farrar's very excellent documentaries. The man lived and breathed dance. Pretty impressive for such a portly and immobile guy.
>>I do not think Shakira, Beyonce or "whores" are the embodiment of Modern Belly dance. I don't think that there really is an archetype.<<
O! How I wish I could agree. I wonder if we're using the same definition of archetype, though; I'm using a "Jungian" model for the concept:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype
Shakira was kickin' ass until some satanic producer got a hold of her. Sigh. -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Fri, June 8, 2007 - 12:47 AM>>>O! How I wish I could agree. I wonder if we're using the same definition of archetype, though; I'm using a "Jungian" model for the concept: >>>
Well this is exactly the model I had in mind when I started this thread on "archetypes" as it was Carl Gustav Jung who invented the term and whose work and writings I have had great interest in for many years now.
I am glad that you brought up the late Ibrahim Farrah. Good on you! He had alot to do with educating the North American dance community about the real culture and 'flavour' behind the "bellydance". I was very lucky to have been personally acquainted with him [although for a short time only] and to have been privy to some of his more personal philosophies and insights about the dance, the "bellydance" industry itself with all 'the good, the bad and the ugly'..hahaha... He was a riot! -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Fri, June 8, 2007 - 1:14 AMHold on.
OK.
No wait.
OK.
You breathed the same air as Ibrahim Farrah?!?
You may be one of like 10 people in the world that would recognize (and then laugh at) my impression of him. -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Sun, June 10, 2007 - 2:49 PM>>>No wait.
OK.
You breathed the same air as Ibrahim Farrah?!? >>>
Hahaha..Yep...sure did. He seemed to like my family alot [my mother, my sister and me] and would even make audacious gestures of affection toward us whenever any of us would attend his workshops [like for instance, when he singled out my mom in front of all the local bellydance *stahs* in LA while he was teaching there, and laid a big fat kiss on her forehead and then announced to everyone present that she was a Puerto Rican woman and mother to 2 of his "favorite dancers". He then proceeded to lecture about "hot blooded latin women" and their "unique contributions and influence in the dance scene"...etc. etc..
Yeah, he could be a shit disturber alright ..hahahaha...shoulda seen the 'sour' faces in that class! ...Guess there never was alot of humour to be found among these elitist bellydance 'academics' ..hehe.
But he was very sentimental too. I think he liked my family because he felt 'at home' around us and could be himself - And as well, he might have felt some relief from that constant nagging sense that people are always trying to rip him off for his knowledge and his 'arte'. I mean, he did come from NY afterall...and so had a very well developed 'street wisen-ess'. He could spot 'bloodsuckers' right away and had no trouble letting them know who they were. He didn't suffer fools gladly, either. He could tell some side splitting stories about his carreer experiences that would keep you laughing for days!
So Loki...how did you know him? And did you care for him as much? -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Sun, June 10, 2007 - 4:44 PMOnly from his documentaries. I'm sure I'd've loved him. I have nothing but deep respect and abiding affection for the man he presents in his docos.
I can totally see him making a fuss over your family; the way he went on and on about the family of bedou in one of his documentaries comes to mind, he kept singling out "Mama", saying things like "but for the true artistry we have to look away from the daughters for a moment, and give aaaallll our attention to...... Mama. Ah, Mama. I fell in love with her, that day... in the most respectful............. of ways, of course." (The inexplicable and seemingly nonsensical pauses in his delivery are one of my favorite of his personal traits, all academia and arte aside) -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 5:38 AMBack to Archetypes, We should make a list of those archetypes already discussed in the thread.
Hollywood's shimmy quick
MTV's edit sell-out
Arousal from Mama Goddess
Arrousal by the Whore
Trying for Tips by the Addict
Aerobic bellydance workout yoga isolation workout pilates workout dieters
Playful playful playful,::: which produces a playful crowd.
Amaze them with the way my body can move in it's unique body type.
Emotionless slave
Now, archetypes are sometimes separate, but more often mixed, like a tarot card readout combination of cards showing a person influenced from different places.
I'm sure I missed some, but it seems impossible to deny that their are archetypes as much as we may want to deny that we're fitting a mold. Archetype does not mean we are fitting a mold, rather that we acknoledge our influences, desires, and our reasons for dancing. It enhances our performance. If we remember that we're here to amaze them or that we're here to be the mother goddess of all arousal potential, or whatever our unique purpose is, we enhance our performance. -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 2:27 PMHey Star....
How about "arousal of the Serpent Principle" ...?? This is by far the oldest archetype and can be found at the root of almost all [ancient ] religious beliefs and practices.
I use the term "archetype" as it corresponds with the concept of 'rulership' and as it was conferred onto the ancient 'gods' as well as certain angelic beings [referred to in the Bible as "arch" angels ie Michael, Gabriel AND Lucifer too who incidently has always been associated with the "serpent"]. The term also means "first 'mark' or 'blow' [ie prototype/stamp] or 'first created". It is so much more than the meaning[s] that is/are generally given in the common definitions and I am quite disappointed with Wikipedia for continuing to lack the accuracy and the depth of info about this [and so many other things], yet it is put out there to be an online encyclopedia which many will use as an empirical reference. Sucks man......
The archetype that I see emerging in the 'new (bellydance) age' is that of the old "gilded serpent". That old 'scallywag' from the mythological Garden of Eden who is still running the (original) 'agenda' ...and it is REALLY 'anti human being' man [please take a look at ancient Mezzo-American culture].... Thus it can engender so many of the qualities that Loki refers to when describing what he sees in some performances ie that drugged & 'mind kontrolled' look and feel. As if they were channelling the entity/archetype each time they perform and giving this old 'snake' expresssssion and influence. Watch the scene in the movie "Apocalypto" where the captives are being sacrificed to the serpent god Kukulcan and observe the priests' drug induced state as they commit the horrific ceremony. Mel Gibson did a fabulous job of recreating the whole 'weirdness' of it all, complete with all the elaborate [and very strange] body adornments, ie jade inlaid skin and tattoos.
It's all about the "gilded serpent"...The "shining" one.
I like the fact that you bring up the Tarot. I think that this is a valid example of the archetypal realm. But do we even understand it? I don't think so. We are plaqued with so many 'psychics' with shallow and lame 'interps' while giving readings to [paying] clients, that definitions become hopelessly convoluted and the real 'meanings' get taken out with the 'trash'. The Tarot is very interesting but cannot even begin to 'reveal' anything to anyone who doesn't have the in depth study under their belts from a cross cultural, linguistic, theological, archaeoligical and historical perspective. But even aside from these things, it is still a dubious subject without the actual 'deep experiential' component - And I would imagine that this would render the so called 'psychic reader/advisor' less likely to [want to] engage in any kind of discourse with the "less intitiated". But this is only my perception. -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 3:23 PMHi Sarita, forgive me for hijacking this archetypes-discussion...about the serpent, first when I saw that rope thing Shakira did (clip I posted further down) I thought: hell, she can't handle a snake this way, it must be dead already...
*giggle* (thus she destroys the serpent-principle) -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 4:23 PM>>>she can't handle a snake this way, it must be dead already...
*giggle* (thus she destroys the serpent-principle) >>>
Now THAT was witty....LMAO!!!!
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 4:20 AMHi Loki,
I think you can't say "whorish" in a sense of that in a liberated society a woman may resort to sexual provocation if she wants to without being an item available to anyone who can pay. To say a "whore" implies that. I think "pornographic" would be better. And I definitely think that Shakira is at least using gestures and mimikry that belong to a pornographic repertoire. On one hand you could say: so what. Sexuality is not a bad thing, anyone is free to express oneself.
youtube.com/watch
To me this blends bellydance with the wish to evoke sexual fantasies around blindfolding, tying up and whipping as a sign of a woman that will take her sexual passion to the limits.
Many young girls want to copy Shakira that are not in the same position to be as dominant as her - on stage, removed from those who desire her. They don't realize that it doesn't make them cool in the least bit.
youtube.com/watch
On the other hand, females in post-feminist northern countries may feel inspired and empowered by the example of Shakira to get their sexuality back as a way of self-expression. But it is totally exhibitionist to want to take this power out to a "public". It is stupid, abusive and also self abusive. To me personally it is a sellout of intimacy.
It is certainly problematic that she is adding a pornographical touch to a widespread idea of what bellydance is supposed to be. She does her best to embody an archetype of male sexual fantasies: the woman on the loose...and this generally is the job of woman in pornography. -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 4:55 AMI believe all this showing off of sexuality is a way to pretend: Me too I got what everyone dies for. Leading to a big, synchronized fate. Because whoever is happy with what he or she's got doesn't really need live of the envy of others. That to me is the clue: a largely unsatisfied societey trying to reassure itself of its sexuality...
That sounds really smartass but I think that the manipulative effects, translating into financial advantage of few people, are obvious. I don't hate Shakira, I like some of her stuff, but I care for her mostly insofar as she is beginning to put her stamp on the conception of bellydance - in a harmful way as I think.
On the other hand, it is interesting because Shakira is a sexually aggressive female - not a submissive one. The sexually aggressive males are to be found among the rappers. Are they a match ( I doubt that) or is Shakira a call for matriarchy?
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 11:03 AM>> I think "pornographic" would be better.<<
Fair enough. "Prurient" might fit in there, as well, by your definition.
>>Sexuality is not a bad thing, anyone is free to express oneself. <<
I'd modify that by saying sexuality is not *necessarily* a bad thing. Sexuality is what it is; I think the morality of its character has to be informed or imputed by the individual. I used "whore" to express which side of that divide I see the work falling on.
>>She does her best to embody an archetype of male sexual fantasies: the woman on the loose...and this generally is the job of woman in pornography.<<
..... *this* male has better fantasies.
Grumble grumble.
Grumble.
Anyhoo; pornography, like sexuality, is what it is and derives its character solely from imputation / assignation. The defining characteristic of porn is *money* - so we're kind of back where we started on that.
Suffice it to say, I guess: I don't like what Shakira and Beyonce "said" in that video. It was yucky and I'm sad that so many people will see it and be affected by it. I wish more people had interest in arts that weren't being shoved at them wrapped up in a big homogenous and unflattering sugar-coated cocaine&heroin&viagra wrapper.
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 1:17 PMHi Loki. I must add: not only male sexual fantasies but female also, if you reduce it to "being ecstatic", or better fake-extasy, and it's pornographic because the essential difference between real sexual ecstasy and pornography is the fact that it's a fake. (in the industrial sense, a fake that pays off).
I believe what you say. If English was my mother-tongue I'd react a lot more sensitive to the lyrics like I do when I hear songs in German.
If you watched that pop-music film with Drew Barrymore and Hugh Grant you must have laughed about the Shakira-parody...it was quite funny actually.
Still there are things about Shakira I like.
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 1:40 PMI mean this beautiful liar clip: it is just about the two women considered the MOST sexy in the pop-world, what a MATCH, and you can compare them, it's a competition! - that's just a boulevard -hooray-idea. Beyonce has got the much nicer voice but Shakira is more expressive -so much to gossip about - so what, they really make an effort to affirm that more sexplosion than them there CANNOT be.
I find for example cuban women much nicer because when they dance they can show off sexually in such an uninhibited way, smiling and laughing away because they are natural and enjoy themselves and don't try to fake-play this cheap drama of the "maximum forbidden XXX sex queen". It's far too programmed, much too previsible - always the same boring shit as pornography, triggering always the key instincts that'll always work.
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 6:58 AMArchetype
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For other uses, see Archetype (disambiguation).
An archetype is a generic, idealized model of a person, object, or concept from which similar instances are derived, copied, patterned, or emulated. In psychology, an archetype is a model of a person, personality, or behavior. This article is about personality archetypes, as described in literature analysis and the study of the psyche.
In the analysis of personality, the term archetype is often broadly used to refer to
a stereotype—personality type observed multiple times, especially an oversimplification of such a type; or
an epitome—personality type exemplified, especially the "greatest" such example.
However, in a strict linguistic sense, an archetype is merely a defining example of a personality type. The accepted use of archetype is to refer to a generic version of a personality type. In this sense "mother figure" can be considered an archetype and instances can be found in various female characters with distinct (non-generic) personalities.
Archetypes have been present in mythology and literature for hundreds of years. The use of archetypes to analyze personality was advanced by Carl Jung early in the 20th century. The value in using archetypal characters in fiction derives from the fact that a large group of people are able to unconsciously recognize the archetype, and thus the motivations, behind the character's behavior.
If we interprete archetype as synonymous with stereotype then within the media and the general public the archetype of the modern american bellydancer would perhaps be as be as loki suggests, the tarty hip hop, pussycat dolls influenced kind of dancer, maybe the new york princess, or the la fake boob dancer.
Within the bellydance community the archetype/ stereotype would be different, within the tribal comunity the archetype might be the drill drill drill lock and pop dancer or the indenial goddess worship dancer, in the caberet scene maybe its the beautiful exotic belly rolling dancer or the turkish sourpuss.
If on the other hand we archetype as epitome this would give us a very different spectrum of dancer types.
How many wannabe rachels have you seen, male and female, does this make her an archetype?
On the subject of archetype does anyone else see the archetypal image of a tribal dancer, with jewellery from every country, moves plucked at random from a miriad of cultures and a a stereotyped view of the beauty of tribal life as a bit racist? -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 10:22 AM>>On the subject of archetype does anyone else see the archetypal image of a tribal dancer, with jewellery from every country, moves plucked at random from a miriad of cultures and a a stereotyped view of the beauty of tribal life as a bit racist?<<
I hesitate to say "racist" - I'm not sure if the term is 100% precise for what I see - but it is imperialist, perhaps innocently so; it's assimilation sans understanding / immersion - play with a (hopefully) unintentional terrible consequence (the breaking of cultural traditions that are in themselves meaningful - considered sacred in some cases).
"Classist" isn't it either.
More than a little insensitive and more than a little profane. Ethnocentrism? Culturocentrism? Elitist? Assimilationist?
Me bitching about inappropriate cultural appropriation and lax discipline to boot is how Sarita and I became pals. Without trying to speak for her, I get the sense we share a great deal of concern about the trends that the "tribal" movement is promoting. For me, it's insensitive, and in some cases shockingly so, to appropriate dress that has a definite context in the culture it's being assimilated from. Wearing a wedding gown and doing a harem dance with goth-sleeves on ..... it's really, really dissonant to me. I can't watch. It hurts; it's like watching a bunch of people play keep-away with an infant: "Stop that! Put her down!" I keep wanting to yell, but they keep tossing and I keep running, back and forth, trying to catch the precious baby..... aaaaaagh -
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Re: Modern "Bellydance" Archetypes
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 2:47 PM"Without trying to speak for her, I get the sense we share a great deal of concern about the trends that the "tribal" movement is promoting. For me, it's insensitive, and in some cases shockin
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