Crazed: The Bellydance

topic posted Wed, November 22, 2006 - 6:15 PM by  Shira
This link takes you to a 10-minute video documentary about belly dance: www.currenttv.com/watch/17137320

It focuses on what the dance means to present-day women, but there is also some "history". I put that in quotes because I'm skeptical of some of it. For example, one person says that there are tomb paintings from ancient Egypt dating back to 5,000 years BCE which depict belly dance.

To my knowledge, the only tomb paintings in Egypt which depict dance AND are believed to be that old are at the tomb of Mereruke at Saqqara. Four months ago I stood in that tomb and studied the paintings. I had plenty of time to linger, and that's exactly what I did. There are a few different depictions of dance in that tomb. However, none of them look like they could confidently be pronounced as depictions of "belly dance". "Dance", yes, but not necessarily "belly dance". For example, there was no sign of a lifted hip, or a body angled in the attitude of a hip circle. I was kind of disappointed, because I personally believe that some sort of hip-oriented dance closely resembling the hipwork of modern-day belly dance did exist in Pharaonic Egypt, and I would have liked to have found evidence to substantiate my personal theory. But I did not find such evidence in this tomb.

So, I wonder, did the person who said this on the documentary actually do research? Was she referring to the same drawings I personally gazed at for half an hour? If so, I wonder why she thought they looked like belly dance, because I didn't think they did. If not, which tomb in which city contains the art she was referring to? These are rhetorical questions - I don't expect anyone in this tribe to know what she based her comments on.

There are some other assertions about history made in the documentary which I'm skeptical of. For example, a claim that the purpose of the shoulder shimmy was to teach young women about the function of breasts in breast-feeding babies.

There were also some things in the documentary that I enjoyed very much, such as the comments made by Aunt Rocky, the dancing by Tarik, the discussion of the place men hold in belly dance, the comments made by many of the interviewees about the uplifting role belly dance plays in women's lives today, etc. In fact, I'd probably give it 4 stars (on a scale of 1 to 5) overall, so my mumbling about history above is referring to only a small part of the whole. But I focused most of my comments on the history aspect simply because that's the aspect that fits the theme of this particular tribe.

I'd be interested in hearing what others thought of the documentary.
posted by:
Shira
Iowa
  • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

    Thu, November 23, 2006 - 3:17 AM
    Wow..Again Shira..Thank YOU for bringing us stuff like this! I quite enjoyed the clip and I hope it was the same one that you're comments are based on because I don't remember hearing anything about the tomb paintings [I'll watch it again]. I also agree with you on the comments about the origin and meaning of bellydance movements [especially the one about shoulder shimmies and breastfeeding...ROFL]. Now THAT was pretty silly, if you ask me!

    There's NO WAY that I can be convinced of the [supposed] 'correlation' between belly shakin' and "baby kicks" either..<chortle..snort..snigger> .. but the whole idea of makin' a bellydance 'milkshake' for the little rugrat just cracks me up..<PUahahahahahaha...!!!>

    You see, I have a theory about bellydance movements and what their actual 'purpose and meaning' are. And though my ideas may not be very acceptable to most, I reserve the right to have them just the same. Afterall, its just another "theory" anyway..hehe.

    I suspect that certain movements such as the pelvic 'tuck and roll' for example, are meant to show how 'talented' the woman is in bringing pleasure to the man during the sex act. Her control over the 'inner' muscles in order to effect this movement [along with many other of the characteristic movements in bellydancing] are a blatant advertisement of this fact. In short, the dance is more about the "sex act" itself than the resulting "childbearing". Bellydance movements present a woman's body in such a way as to be an enticement to sexual union. Her breasts, her waist, her buttocks, maybe a flash of leg, her 'wanton' arms that reach out for 'love' her gestures which frame and embellish various parts of her body,...all these and more are put on display [whether covered or not, they are still a 'focus'] I see the 'quivering' movements as depicting the final build up of sexual tension toward release [orgasm].

    The rest is just 'foreplay'......Hahahaha
    • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

      Thu, November 23, 2006 - 8:39 AM
      Yes, the clip in the link is the same one I based my comments on. The mention of the tomb wall was actually text at the bottom of the screen that appeared while Oreet was talking about her theories.

      Morocco has research on her web site that talks of the link between certain belly dance moves and childbirth - see www.casbahdance.org where she describes a birth ritual she actually witnessed in the country Morocco. Obviously, the fact that she witnessed certain moves being used in this way does NOT mean that this is the only possible origin of this dance, merely an observation that certain moves are useful in this way and therefore do get used in certain societies.

      If this documentary had stayed with discussing (as Rocky's articles do) the fact that certain moves make it physically easier to move the child through the birth canal, I'd be less skeptical. But trying to link shoulder shimmies to breastfeeding and trying to link figure 8's to showing a girl just how curvaceous her body will become are both a stretch for me.
      • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

        Thu, November 23, 2006 - 8:56 AM
        LMAO...I breastfed all three of my kids...BAD mental picture here of one trying to latch on while I'm shimmying...*giggle*

        Based on experience, I'm thinkin' "no" for that theory.
      • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

        Thu, November 23, 2006 - 2:08 PM
        Shira, could you please direct me to the exact place where she describes the birth ritual that she actually witnessed. Maybe I'm becoming dyslexic but I've read throught that article over and over and have not found this part in it.

        As a mother of 3 who undewent natural childbirth and who is also a certified midwife, I find much of what is discussed in that article regarding the anatomy and the process of childbirth to be inaccurate. I would really like to find some credible research on this subject as it would be a boon to expectant mothers everywhere [if only it were true]. Where it comes to the part about getting the infant through that birth canal and out into the world [the most crucial part of labor and birth] it is the strength of the muscles surrounding the vaginal area and the anus that is the main focus. You must be able to push and push 'well and hard' for a successful birth [and to end the pain]. Since we are all individuals and will experience things differently, there really is no telling how painful or pain(less) this natural process will be for any one of us. But by all accounts, there is pain - and this fact, I doubt, cant be avoided [unless you undergo some form of medical anesthia]. The key to a less painful birth is to stay as relaxed as possible throughout the process and get as much rest as you can between contractions [saving your energy for 'pushing']. Wherein it is well known by experienced moms that you are supposed to push out through the anus during delivery, in exactly the same manner as defecation. I cannot see how rolling your belly or rotating the pelvis during labour and delivery does anything to facilitate this process.

        But, if I'm wrong....please PLEASE someone let me know! I really am interested in what anyone out there with some credentials [and experience] has to say about this.
        • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

          Thu, November 23, 2006 - 7:31 PM
          Sarita, there are actually three articles on Rocky's web site that talk about the use of certain belly dance moves in the birthing process. I'm guessing that the one you read was the one titled "Bellydancing & Childbirth".

          However, the one that describes in detail the birth ritual she witnessed in the country Morocco is "Roots".

          If you want to read the third one too, that's "Giving to Light".
          • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

            Thu, November 23, 2006 - 9:34 PM
            Hey Shira; yes, I have always been sceptical of the Pharonic style dance of ancient Egypt that people perform today. I just can't believe that people really danced that stiffly...

            But to bring it back to "bellydance" in ancient Egypt, who knows if what they did then is what we do now. My Egyptian folklore professor here at IU, Prof. Hasan El-Shamy, did an opening speech at my dance concert at IU, and I asked him to talk about the relevance of dance to Egyptian folklore, and after talking about Mahmoud Reda and Farida Fahmy, and how he started cataloguing the different regional dances, he then went into storytelling, which I so *love*, because he does it so well. He has catalogued many "motifs" in Middle Eastern mythology, and so he is very famous in his field. He told the story of one of the Pharoahs who couldn't sleep, and so he hired beautiful young women to row a boat for him down the Nile so he could watch their "nubile" bodies sway to the beat of the oars as they rowed, and danced on the boat. The myth then goes on to tell that one of the dancers lost her locket in the Nile, and the Pharoah was so concerned for her that he parted the Nile to retrieve it (this happening long before the Biblical Red Sea parting). His point was to show that dance was an intregal part of the culture then, and that the Pharoah didn't just use the women as slaves, but that he had genuine concern for them in the myth.

            No one is alive from that time, so we will never really know *how* they danced, but dance they did!!! Bellydance? Probably not. But I would guess that those sitff arms in the hieroglphyics are actually snake arms...
            • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

              Fri, November 24, 2006 - 3:09 PM
              Katya, you might enjoy the book "Ancient Egyptian Dances" by Irena Lexova. She reproduces diagrams from tomb walls that could be construed as "dancing" and analyzes them. Her book was written in the 1930's, and I'm told there are some new discoveries and new thought since then (which I have yet to read myself), but I think she offers a great starting point. She talks about how there were different dances for different occasions, such as funerary versus priestly ritual, etc.

              As for that silly bent-arm pose that "everyone knows" comes from tomb walls, well, her book debunks that. She shows a drawing similar to that posture - and reveals that it comes from Etruria, a pre-Roman civilization that existed in what is now modern-day Italy.
              • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

                Fri, November 24, 2006 - 3:56 PM
                I'm really enjoying this thread, and confess I need to do a LOT more reading up.

                What strikes me is something that I think a lot of people seem to forget - humans have danced since they were upright. It doesn't matter what culture or ethnology, it is a fundamental part of human nature. Before there was speech, there was body movement and gesturing. That is how humans (or pre-humans, I guess) communicated. Like how bees in a hive do a little "wiggle dance" to indicate where the best flowers are for pollen. Before there was speech, before there was writing, there was movement. Communication through movement.

                Dances of all cultures have roots, and we call these roots "folkloric". And folkloric dance is representative of every day life, no matter where it comes from. The wavy hands of the hula dancer represents waves and the wind....the "digging" motion of African dance represents the digging of the dirt, or the harvesting of the wheat. Dance, at its "roots" is inecstricably (sp??) connected to the daily life of the culture from which it evolved.

                So next, when we look at "modern" dance, such as ballet, which really has *no* traditional roots (per se), we can still look at it in terms of cultural evolution. Ballet developed at a time in history where the monarchies of Europe wanted to distance themselves from the peasants and workers of the land. They admired and encouraged "art for arts sake", taking the dance of the people and altering it enough so that it was unattainable to all but the most elite.

                Okay, I'm yammering on here, of course I'm not an expert, this is just stuff I've picked up along the way, and I'm definitely going to get my hands on "Ancient Egyptian Dances", just to see where this issue began to be documented. However, I admit that I've never really understood the "argument" about weather Bellydance (as we know it today) existed in Pharonic times. I'm tempted to say, with 100% conviction, that no it didn't! Because the world was a different place then. It is unarguable that dance existed, of course it did. But we all know that clubs as we know them didn't exsit. Again, thats not to say gathering places with food and drink and music and entertainment didn't exist....but cultures evolve and change. They dynamics and expressions - the details - would have been different.

                I just find it hard to believe that dance, in Egypt, wouldn't have changed in thousands of years. I'm sure there are similarities, but there are also similarities in dances between cultures that never encountered each other until relatively recent times. I guess what I'm trying to say is dance must evolve, as culture and language and societies evolve.
                • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

                  Fri, November 24, 2006 - 5:05 PM
                  Aradia, I would readily agree with you that the art form we know today as raqs sharqi is quite different from what may have once been done historically. Since we're moving into a small digression on ancient Egyptian dance in particular, I'll share what my personal theories are with respect to whether "belly dance" existed in Egypt during Pharaonic times.

                  Let me emphasize, what I'm about to say is THEORY, and I do NOT claim it to be fact. I have not found evidence to substantiate it, aside from a study of ethnic dances throughout northern Africa.

                  First, for purposes of this discussion, I am defining "belly dance" as "dance based on some sort of hip-focused movement vocabulary, including both crisp hip moves and shimmies." This is obviously a narrow subset of raqs sharqi as we know it today.

                  Second, Pharaonic Egypt had several different types of people in it. There were the people who filled the royal courts of the palaces, there were the priesthood and those who worked at their sides in temple-oriented business, there were the artisans who built the structures and painted the designs that fascinate us today, and there were the common people who worked as farmers, laborers, fishermen, etc. I think it's reasonable to believe that people in different social positions did different kinds of dances. The sort of social dancing that might have been done by farmers would be considered nowhere close to being sophisticated enough to be something the royals and nobles would do at court.

                  Third, I believe that ordinary, everday people (farmers, etc.) probably DID do "belly dance" as I defined it above as a social dance. I base this on the fact that hip-oriented folk dances exist today across north Africa - the schikhatt in Morocco, the twisty-hip dancing of Tunisia, the hagallah in Libya, and so on. Also, East Africa south of the Sahara features many hip/shimmy oriented dances. Yes, the dances in each of these places have somewhat different techniques. In Tunisia, the hips twist, in Libya and western Egypt the hips go up and down in the hagallah shimmy, in Algeria (Ouled Nail) and Morocco (shikhatt) the pelvis rocks forward and back. And so on. But with hip articulations and shimmies of varying types being done throughout the northern half of an entire continent, I think it's reasonable to conclude that hip-oriented dances have existing in these cultures for a long time, a very long time, a long enough time for such movement to become quite pervasive. Also, which do you think is more likely - that Egypt had hip-oriented dancing similar to that of all the countries surrounding it, or that it was the one and only area that did not?

                  Fourth, I doubt that funerary dances, temple dances, royal court dances, etc. were based on the belly dance movement vocabulary. Funerals, temples, and royal courts would all involve a fair amount of pomp and ceremony, and the dances of the common people wouldn't be suitable. In the tomb of Mereruke at Saqqara, I saw depictions of dance that could be appropriate to these uses, but I didn't see anything that particularly brought "belly dance" to miind.

                  So, the above is my theory with respect to dances of Pharaonic Egypt. I do agree with Aradia's statement that dance has undoubtedly evolved since the time of ancient Egypt. It would be quite unlikely to remain unchanged through thousands of years.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

                    Fri, November 24, 2006 - 5:18 PM
                    Whew...thank God she debunked that silly bent-arm pose! I hate that...why do people still dance like that???
                    • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

                      Fri, November 24, 2006 - 6:43 PM
                      Probably because most people who claim to be doing "Pharaonic" haven't seen fit to do any research into what "Pharaonic" might actually be. They just assume they "know".
                      • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

                        Sat, November 25, 2006 - 9:21 AM
                        Ugh...you are all too right, Shira!!!

                        I *finally* got to see the "Crazed" bellydance video...it took over an hour to download, since I have dialup!!! But, darnit, I was determined to wait and see it! It's very good, a very NYC interpretation. I found Oreet's comments interesting about how it is connected to childbirth...I had never heard it expressed in that way before.
          • This post was deleted by Sarita
            • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

              Tue, November 28, 2006 - 4:45 PM
              Hi Sarita -

              Real quick a few things. Rocky is somewhat eccenctric, as all ledgendary people tend to be. She is also highly impassioned - which I think sometimes rubs people the wrong way, but after more than 45 years of studying this dance as an adult, and academic, and historian, I think its safe to say she's earned it to an extent. She really does do her research, she doesnt make it up. Many of her hard to believe claims have been proven to be true on more than one ocassion. She knows the people she says she knows, and she has been with the berbers (I've seen the pictures).

              Can I verify her story 100%? Of course not, nor am I trying. Just saying that she is definitely explaining it from her point of view. And I'd bet money the event actually took place. I wouldnt call it an overactive imagination.

              "One of the things that caught my attention in her article was the way she expresses her complete and utter disdain for those who might look for [and enjoy] the more erotic aspects of the dance"

              Yes, and that can be off putting to people who do view it that way. But you could look at it this way - Rocky started dancing in the middle of the feminist revolution. She has fought long and hard for her career, in spite of many many adverse experiences. And in spite of many people blowing off her and other dancers as mere sex objects. Of course she would want to fight that. In stead of calling it wounded feminine pride, I'd say she sees it as a defense of feminine pride.

              I will say that reading her articles or online posts really wont give you a thorough view of Rocky - she is a suprising personality.

              Ok - so - stepping away from the whole Rocky issue -

              In terms of using undulations/bellyrolls in aid of childbirth, I have a few questions. I am by no means experienced with childbirth/babies/etc. Just what I know from my doctor father and my mother. I have insanely brutal periods, and I was once told that the cramps are actually the uterus contracting and shedding lining. Now, without getting to detailed here, I have found that using bellyrolls and and undulations (without getting to detailed here) seem to ease the process during menstration if I carried the movement all the way through. So that aspect of her article didnt seem that strange to me. But again, I'll be the first to say I really know nothing here.
              • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

                Tue, November 28, 2006 - 5:29 PM
                I tried to watch it earlier and it gave my old computer a fit.. Hung the entire system and i had to reboot.
                And i agree, Rocky can be very abrasive. As i found out in a recent workshop i took with her. She has no tact at all...
                TTYS, KathleenA
              • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

                Tue, November 28, 2006 - 5:52 PM
                Thank you Ariel, for a thorough [and fair] assesment of Morocco and her background. I too have met her in person [waaaaay back in 1978-79] in Seattle when I was invited to dance in her [after-the-workshop] show. And yes, I too was captivated by her amazing personality. I mean, she had me in 'stitches' the whole time!

                I don't mean to disparage this lady, not in the least! It is not my intention to do so. It's only my curiosity about some of the things she writes about and my [sincere] desire for more knowledge on these subjects that drives my questioning [and commentary].

                Interesting what you had to say re period cramps being eased by bellyrolls and undulations. That's great if it works you. It never did anything for me. I realize of course that the whole issue of 'pain' or any other 'sensation' is so subjective and so individual that its practically impossible to measure the true effectiveness and value that doing these movements might actually have. I do think it would be very interesting to pursue a real [medical/scientific] investigation into this kind of stuff. Or has this already been done? I still believe strongly, that bellydancing undulations, shimmies and all its other body 'language' is more about enticement and sexual pleasure than about relieving birth [or period] pain. As a matter of fact, my own experience proved that my pain and symptoms during menstruation were greatly reduced as a result of "orgasm". Anyone else here have the same story?
                • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

                  Tue, November 28, 2006 - 6:59 PM
                  Yeah, it helps me too, and as much as I love doing bellyrolls, infinitely preferable! While bellyrolls give some relief, it doesn't do that much for me. Same premise, though. You're manipulating the contracting muscles either way. In one you're massaging them, in the other, you build tension culminating in a sudden (and pleasurable) relaxation of them.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

                    Wed, November 29, 2006 - 2:06 AM
                    Pain is subjective, and as a dancer you'd think that I would be able to use what I know during childbirth, but ya know what?? I was in such horrible pain that the last thing on my mind was dance. I just had to breath through each contraction, one at a time (they were about 30 sec. apart the whole way through-rapid birth), and I couldn't move much. So, I guess for those lucky few mothers who are sane enough during childbirth, dance can help. But for me, I just wanted to make it to the other side, I wasn't very rational during the whole experience...and yes, Sarita, you are right, orgasm does relieve menstrual cramps, and it is also what the doctors tell you to do if you can't get your labor started for birth!!!
                • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

                  Wed, November 29, 2006 - 6:40 AM
                  Hey Sarita -

                  If you ever meet her again, ask her. I would love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation, both of you clearly have really strong backgrounds and good reasons and research for your opinions.

                  You are right, pain and what works as relief is very subjective. I agree, my symptoms were also greatly released by orgasm, perhaps more by that than anything else. I think it is definitely true that some of the movements are/were created for the exact reasons you state - Schikhatt for example is a perfect example of that, and those same movements bleed out through Raqs Sharqi. I dont think anyone has done studies on whether or not bellydance reduces pain, but its clear it strengthens the pelvic floor - important for sex and birth.

                  But this brings up another question for me. We can never be totally sure why this dance was created and what for. None of us (including Morocco) can really peg that down with 100% assurity. What we can do is look at what the dance is today. Clearly in America, there is room for every style (much to the chagrin of the ethnic police) and every approach. Over there, its become a social and theatrical dance with its own movement vocabulary with all new moves showing up all the time. Men dance socially as much if not more than women. So assuming that this dance did come from the sexual education angle, how does that (or how should it) affect our dance today? And why?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

                    Wed, November 29, 2006 - 7:33 AM
                    "Men dance socially as much if not more than women. So assuming that this dance did come from the sexual education angle, how does that (or how should it) affect our dance today? And why?"

                    That is a really good question Ariel. When I look around at the world around me I see more and more fundamentalist religious sensibilities about sex, behaviour and gender roles emerging [from both the East and the West]...and yes, this does affect how we feel and what we do in this dance today. People are still 'titilated' by the whole concept of bellydancing and so it would seem that there's more to the "sexual angle" of this dance than we want to admit. I've spent a lifetime dodging bullets from THAT 'loaded gun' precisely because I was a bellydancer. I mean, I may as well have been a prostitute as far as society was concerned. Hell, it was even used against me in a courtroom [the fact that I was a bellydancer] in order to shame and discredit me during a very serious trial. People are STILL thinking like this, man! Not much has changed at all. I guess no matter how you slice it, this dance is just too sexy...hahaha!
                    • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

                      Wed, November 29, 2006 - 4:37 PM
                      You just totally clarified something for me - thank you. See, this whole time I thought your posts were more about discussing why we should (or do) play up sexuality in this dance only, not that we are objectified because of the inherent sexuality in the dance.

                      Yes, I have experienced the negative sexual stereotyping/backlash - not in a courtroom though! Ugh! That is horrible. And you are right, nothing seems to be changing.
                    • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

                      Mon, December 31, 2007 - 11:32 AM
                      sorry this is a long one, please bear with me...

                      If you look at the political context of history and RELIGION, we might shed a little different light on some of this stuff. Religion is a huge part of written history and it’s politics are played down in favor of belief, in favor of continuing the present belief system.

                      In Pre-Christian era, sex was thought of as a gift from God (who was assumed to be a woman, as today we assume it is a man). Sex and orgasm were believed to be one way that humans were above animals and closer to God. Sex was a part of the rituals used in Pre-Christian times in Middle and Near East.
                      This has been translated from recorded script by anthropologists. The difficulties lie in who is translating. One word has been translated from Sumerian cuneiform, as temple prostitute, when a less-biased translation is woman of the temple or woman who has dedicated her life to the temple/God. The temple was a place were sex was done.
                      This, seems to me, a very obvious reason for Judaism, Christianity and Islam to control a woman’s sexual activity and energy. To make such a sweeping change in the belief/lives of so many people, the current (of the time) system, had to be completely rewritten. This included the change from economic power and freedom to economic destitution, sexual freedom, worship among the grottos (a certain fig tree were planted by altars both indoors and out) and in the case of Judaism and Christianity, a changing of the female word ending for God, to the male, amongst many, many other changes.

                      It occurs to me, and there is no scientific bases for this, only what seems a logical conclusion (like how reasonable would it be for Egypt to be the only country not doing dances involving the hips),… that dances like these were used to build up sexual energy. That were then released through sex, at home or in the temple.
                      I do not think they were about seducing men. I think – again personal opinion – that they were used as a celebration of the strength of woman, the particular dancer and it was about her orgasm, not his.
                      Women carry a lot of strength and power in their sexual center. Our present culture does not allow us any leeway in it’s use… The only acceptable use for this energy is to satisfy your husband. (yes, I am being a little hard here to try to show where our attitudes of the last 2000+ years come from. These changes did not happen over night and there is no going back – only forward ☺)

                      My personal experience (and that of many of my students) performing in Central Europe where the dance is relatively new (because of communism), and the culture is relatively “traditional” Christian-wise, is that the men are pretty much afraid of me when I dance. They are not used to women showing their sexual strength and it makes a lot of them very uncomfortable. But the women respond positively and knowingly. Responses do vary, but this is the more common experience.
                      Here I must also differentiate between sexual/sensual and coquettish. The insecurity of many dancers who are looking for confirmation of their sexuality by a man is very Christian and, to me, not very sexy. It is placing a woman’s sexuality in the person who is seeing her and not inside the woman herself.

                      I will add that early mythos from Ancient Egypt have the same fig tree as sacred and many other connections with the mythos from Mesopotamia and Lebanon. It is thought that Lebanon is where Isis (Au set) found her brother/lover dead inside the sacred tree and had him brought back to life.
                      We know more about later Ancient Egypt when the focus/power had shifted from the female to the male. The myths were often much the same, just the emphasis had changed. In Mesopotamia, the invading peoples were mostly Patriarchal and often would just scratch the name of the old God off the tablet and inscribe the name of their own God over it.
                      The earliest traditions were verbal, even when their was writing, it was used primarily for accounting.

                      If you would like to know my source material for much of this contact me at bri@bathani.eu
        • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

          Thu, November 30, 2006 - 3:59 AM
          As a mother of one having enjoyed pregnancy and undergone natural childbirth I only can say that this gave me a lot of awareness of the richness of the female body, of love for myself. But I don't like the idea of bellydance being interpreted so onesidedly.

          + there are many good male dancers, why take it away from them by saying oh this is a dance FOR WOMEN (meaning to say this is not women doing something ONLY to please men, while if it pleases a man there is nothing so bad about it, but men tend to draw the wrong conclusions. My male friends who reacted like: Oh, you do bellydance? Come on, I'd like to see a little bellydance I had them sitting at youtube and watching all the male bellydance-clips I knew, that nicely shut them up or lets say widened their horizon ;-).
          • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

            Thu, November 30, 2006 - 6:22 AM
            "+ there are many good male dancers, why take it away from them by saying oh this is a dance FOR WOMEN"

            My pet peeve exactly. Otherwise I enjoyed the documentary very much. Well, okay, that shouler shimmy - breastfeeding connection had me go al "huh???", too.
  • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

    Thu, November 23, 2006 - 11:06 AM
    Thank you Shira! Wow! So cool that you saw the tombs of Egypt.

    Sarita, the bit about 5,000 years in one of the captions on the video. It wasn't actually said out loud.

    Wikipedia has a good bit on the history of the Roma people. That history is probably a more "scientific" explanation for how Egyptians and other African, Middle Eastern, Balkan and Mediterranean countries took up bellydance as we know it today. Approximately one-thousand low-caste Hindus left Punjab and moved west 1,800 years ago -- not 5,000 years as the video and urban legend have it. This would explain why the similarities in Bhangra dance (which originated in the original Roma homeland of Punjab) and bellydance are unmistakable.

    Before the arrival of the Roma, Egypt had already been invaded by Greece, Rome, and Ethiopia. Egypt was also part of the spice trade and the silk road. Just an assumption of one muse, but likely the Egyptian ladies were probably doing something pretty close to "tribal" already in such a melting pot of cultures and religions. Adding a little curry and saffron to the mix could have only made their husbands just a little bit happier to rush home for a bit of food and fun.

    The link to childbirth is there, but more like nine-months after the drumming is done. ;-)
    • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

      Thu, November 23, 2006 - 3:58 PM
      During Morocco's workshop here in Vancouver last month, she did talk about the Schikatt, and how they are women that are brought to "stagette" parties that demonstrate through dance what a woman can expect on her wedding night, and how she can move. Will have to search a bit for the hand out she provided with more detail, but it certainly seems likely that some of our modern moves, as Sarita suggested, would have stemmed from those "demonstrations".
      • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

        Thu, November 30, 2006 - 4:20 AM
        Yes I saw that in a video how a wedding bellydancer did floorwork in front of the married couple, showing movements like a clear instruction for what to do in the wedding night. Well they are supposed to be all virgins, men and women when being married, so lets show them what to do is the idea behind this.

        Well this is not really art. Art needs to keep a secret. If you can plainly translate it like x=y, the essence of art is lost.

        On the other hand, one mustn't be afraid of the erotical thing. It is not bad. I think trying to distance oneself from it as a professional dancer puts bellydancers in a difficult position where they defend themselves, trying to look for interpretations that keep erotism out, but this is just a crutch if not wrong at all. Even if in reality bellydancers have to fight for respect, there is no way round the topic this only would lead to more misunderstanding. It is erotical and that is nice and good and great.
        • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

          Sun, December 30, 2007 - 5:33 AM
          Nuria, I think, you are a bit on the wrong track here. Bellydancing at weddings is a tradition in Egypt, and for all I know, it is for fertility and good luck for the couple, but I sincerely doubt that they are teaching those virgins anything they don't already know. After all, they have all been attending wedding parties since their childhood and seen it all before. And you would not believe the things Arabs discuss with each other when it comes to talking about sex. If you have ever seen the Lebanese movie "The kite", that tells you enough. (mail me in private if you care to know the details of the dialogue I am talking about).
          The beauty and eroticism of bellydancing is all in the eye of the beholder, people see what they want to see. If some has been raised in a strict Puritan Christian tradition e.g. , they will see something condemnable and shameless and complain about the women who do it, on the other hand, if someone has bellydance as a traditional part of his culture and everybody around him moves this way when they are dancing at parties, he will just enjoy the spirit of it.
          Unfortunately, these floor shows are no longer allowed in Egypt (there too they have the moral police down on the belly dancers, with Dina laughing at them) but it is our job to resurrect all this, and not to worry about what people may think.
          • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

            Fri, February 1, 2008 - 12:15 PM
            I agree about it being in the eye of the beholder... I don't view the movements I do as sexual/erotic, but a female friend of mine (whom I've taught a couple times when she asked) sees them as inherently sexual ("but that's how you move during sex!").
  • This post was deleted by Sarita
    • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

      Sun, December 30, 2007 - 5:00 AM
      gaaa..., I wanted to watch this video after reading this whole discussion and it seems to be gone ! Anyway, my browser cannot find it. Has anybody downloaded it and can upload it again somewhere, please?
      • Re: Crazed: The Bellydance

        Sun, December 30, 2007 - 5:18 AM
        okay, googled it and found it again: current.com/watch/17137320
        I must say, I do not like this movie at all. It shows very little of the beauty of bellydance at all, and I get the impression, the general message is: "Bellydance has nothing to do with stripping, you do not bare your tits, no, bellydance is the new fad at your fitness club, so walk down the road and try this new kind of exercise as a workout ! It is good for you." Now while this may be a wholesome message, it does nothing for me, and my