My teacher told me that I'm doing chest lifts wrong--that I'm using my back muscles when I should be using my diaphragm. I tried to do what she said, but my head just kind of exploded. Please help me put it back together:
1. Is the movement truly 100% from the diaphragm? What other muscles are involved?
2. Is there some easy way to tell if my lift is coming from the right place? Or some way to force myself to do the lift correctly (like doing hip lifts with your foot off the ground to keep from using your leg)?
1. Is the movement truly 100% from the diaphragm? What other muscles are involved?
2. Is there some easy way to tell if my lift is coming from the right place? Or some way to force myself to do the lift correctly (like doing hip lifts with your foot off the ground to keep from using your leg)?
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Wed, February 27, 2008 - 5:11 PMYou're doing them wrong according to your teacher. Doing chest lifts from the upper back (under the bra line) is another way of doing it, and isn't "wrong" unless your teacher wants otherwise :)
There's another way of doing chest lifts that involves the intercostal muscles (as far as I can tell) and the diaphragm -- you get much less shoulder movement (almost none) using this method.
I think I remember Heather Stants mentioned something about this once -- she has her shoulders very much down and together in her basic stance -- so when she does her chest lifts, they come from the diaphragm, because there really isn't much more her upper back can do -- and it has that nice hip-hop no-shoulders isolated chest lift. You might try that?
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Thu, February 28, 2008 - 2:09 AMThis is the traditional way of doing the-using the abdominal muscle, not the back. It's the way I've always done them. I believe "diaphragm" is wrong, although I was taught the same thing!
I wish I was there to demonstrate, but it's a push up with the upper edge of the abdominal muscle. When done correctly, your shoulders stay down and you're chest doesn't expand-the whole rib cage just pops up. It's a very different feel from using the back.
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Thu, February 28, 2008 - 2:19 AMI believe, it feels like it, that is a combination of several muscles. Like you have chest muscles below the breasts. You push the chest up, it comes out in between your arms, shoulderblades come closer together, diaphragm does indeed work! I'd say those three groups of muscles are engaged in the movement (between the shoulderblades, diaphgragm and chest. A and maybe the sides of your ribcage, too!) The action comes rather from the muscles in the front, the muscles in the back work in a reaction.
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Thu, February 28, 2008 - 5:31 AMJuniper, this is what I tell my students who have a hard time mastering this:
Starting at the bottom sides of your bra, run your hands down, feeling for the edge of your ribs. Place your fingertips along the edge of your ribs, pressing enough to feel the musculature underneath. You'll notice a crescent of muscles there. These are the muscles that will control this move. I don't teach that you use your diaphragm, for reasons I explain below, but keep in mind how your teacher instructs and what she is looking for. Now say, "Ha!" very quickly. The pulse that you feel is your diaphragm. Then, keeping your hands in place, just push forward or up (depending in which direction you're working on)with the upper abs (if you haven't developed isolation between your sets of abs, this might result in pushing the whole abdominal area out; just keep trying, you'll get it) trying to make it quicker to recreate the pulse of the diaphragm. This should help you feel the difference in using your diaphragm and using your upper abs. Try to recreate the sharpness of the "ha!" move without moving any air in or out of your body. You should be able to talk through a chest lift or pop. If it helps, put your back to a wall, firmly, so you can't squeeze your shoulder blades together to push your chest forward and up. Remember, American women don't move their chest. Why would we? It's just not a part of our culture, so it can feel difficult and foreign at first. Keeping practicing (this is an easy one to practice alot, luckily), and it will get easier. :) If it helps, imagine someone has grabbed you by the middle of your bra and that they are either trying to lift you up or pull you forward.
In my opinion, there is a danger in telling students to use their diaphragm in this, or any, movement. I think it's better to never instruct someone to use their breath to propel or control their movement. While it may seem fine in class when you're just trying it out, onstage during a seven minute song, someone is going to pass out. I'd rather teach, then drill, isolation. Again, this is my opinion and how I teach, and I only present it here in the hope it will help someone else. Good luck!
BB!
~Jeannie
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Fri, February 29, 2008 - 12:37 PMOh, thank goodness for this question. LOL I knew I'd been doing them "wrong", but it was the opposite. My instruction was saying lifts are powered and controlled by the upper back and pulling the shoulder blades in to meet,. Working all that area back there and voila, chest lift. But, the ones I keep slipping into are powered by my front, not my back, and the ones powered by my front are actually more pronounced and sharp, it seems. -
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Fri, February 29, 2008 - 1:48 PMRem, I have the exact same issue. I consistently raise my ribcage using the rib muscles and upper abs. My teacher wants me to use the muscles in the center of my back between my shoulder blades, but no matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to find them! *sigh*
Heh, maybe some of us are born without those muscles? ; ) -
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Sun, March 2, 2008 - 11:31 AMThey both work; that is, since a lift as both and upper and a lower associated with it, most moves can be accomplished with either a "push" or a "pull". There are some stylistic differences. I'm happier using my abdominal muscles for a few reasons:
I find it easier to maintain posture. I dislike the look and feel of the hyper-arched back popular amongst some dancers.
I find it quicker in undulations to roll straight up (or down!) the abdomen.
I find more control-that's probably just familiarity. -
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Sun, March 2, 2008 - 2:15 PM"I dislike the look and feel of the hyper-arched back popular amongst some dancers. "
So do I. At first it is impressive and who isn't trained longs for big, articulate moves...But it looks tense and cocky.
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Sat, March 1, 2008 - 9:58 PM1. pinwheel your shoulders down so they are relaxed but not scrunched into your neck.
2. the chest is naturally lifted so your "sunshine" is open and up (still relaxed)
3. Put your hands together, 90 degree angle and in front of you.
4. Repeat after me while alternately pressing and releasing pressure of hands.
"I must, I must, I must increase my bust" =) (Yeah, it works.)
5. Now pay attention to all the muscles you used in from your pecs to your abs. (I don't use my diaphragm on purpose, either, it's just attached and following along for the ride)
Hope that helped. =)
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Sun, March 2, 2008 - 1:35 PMOne of my teachers who wanted chest lifts done without the back/shoulder muscles suggested that everyone stand in dance posture and pretend to hic-up... including making the noise - your chest lifts when you do this, and you've now felt which muscles the teacher wants you to use.... now you just have to work on doing it without the hic-up noise! -
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Tue, March 4, 2008 - 1:03 PMhow creative and what a fun way to figure out what you are using. ;-P
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Tue, March 4, 2008 - 5:20 PMThank you everyone! I have a lot to work with (and on) now. -
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Tue, March 4, 2008 - 11:09 PMI have learned to lift my chest a long time before I startedf bellydancing, from tango. What we are taught there is to imagine a string attached to your sternum pulling you up from the ceiling. You must keep your shoulders down while you let your chest follow the pull of the string. Works.
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Sun, May 25, 2008 - 1:17 PMI was taught to do both-- squeezing the shoulder blades together, and also by lifting the diaphragm. I think both ways are correct, and that it just depends on the way that your teacher teaches it.
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Sun, May 25, 2008 - 5:55 PMhehehe, i always was told the other way around, that it was fine to use your diaphragm to get the hang of the movement, but that the goal was to use your upper back muscles.
it's very good for your posture to use your upper back muscles, plus if you aren't using your diaphragm then your are free to breath as you wish. not that it's wrong, but there are some advantages to doing it the way you have been. -
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Tue, May 27, 2008 - 9:15 PMI normally do it by squeezing my shoulder blades together, but one of my teachers used to have us practice it both ways. She didn't seem to have a preference either way, and neither do I, really. It seems like that's pretty much how it is in belly dance. It seems like there are so many different ways to do a lot of the movements, and that no one way is necessarily right or wrong. One of my teachers once made a comment basically saying that there really aren't any "ground rules" for this dance. It's really up to interpretation. That does seem to be the case. What do you think? -
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Tue, May 27, 2008 - 9:55 PMI actually do both... for different purposes.
The stomach lift is when I was to lift my entire torso sharply. But I use my shoulder blades to pull down when I was JUST the pecs (that's breasts to you ladies) to jump. I teach my students to think like someone was pulling on their bra straps to make their breasts alone jump. This isolation allows people to do two different things at once, since I find the two muscle groups are isolated from each other. I can do stomach rolls AND chest pops at the same time.
And I really dislike when people say THIS is incorrect or THAT is incorrect, when it is as valid as anything else. What works for one, may not work for another.
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 9:47 AMi agree, 100%. that's why i wan to make a site listing all the different ways to do moves/names for moves. so people can translate ^_^ -
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 9:54 AMHowever, it should be stated that usually there is only one correct way for a particular style. If you're learning THAT style, you need to learn to do it THAT way. it would be *cheating* to do it another way in THAT style.
When you do fusion, feel free to mix and match.
Also, if you're learning from a particular instructor, your instructor may be trying to teach you a particular way. Learn to do it the way the instructor teaches it. She may have a reason for it. Ask why she wants it a certain way and not the other way. But still try to do what's being asked of you; don't just say "well, it's all acceptable" and do your own thing. -
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 12:55 PMSorry DuckAmuck, I totally don't agree.
I have never heard there is only one correct way for any particular style. That would mean that people that have physical differences might not be able to correct for their physical differences. Fusion has nothing to do with any of it.
Can you give me an example of this?
And this is dance, not accountancy... there is no "cheating." If you are expressing yourself in dance, there is no wrong. Your way is the correct way, no matter if it is Egyptian, American Cabaret, or that Fusion that I WILL feel free to mixnmatch thankyouverymuchforwhatcame offasapatronizingattitude... spare me!
If you are part of a dance company and you are being paid to dance a choreography... yes, you should learn to do it the way the artistic director wants it so that there is symmetry in the dancers. But if you're a soloist?
If you are doing khaleegy and you have a neck injury and can't quite toss your head the same way, you need to adapt a way to do the move that approximates how hair toss should look. The audience (unless it is a judgemental audience of bellydancers... none of those here, right?) doesn't care as long as the dance is represented properly.
If we all do technique exactly the same way, where would the artistry come from? The unique artists of our community aren't sheep who mechanically do chest lifts all the same way.
It is great to learn a certain way from your instructor. But it is also great to go to another instructor and learn another way. Learn 'em all! If one teacher teaches me a shimmy one way, and I go to another and learn the same shimmy another way, then I have two methods at my disposal. If the instructor is a good instuctor, they will tell me why it has to be a particular way.
Yes, you should respect your teacher (after all, you're paying to learn from them) and do it their way in class. But a good teacher, who is trying to create dancers, not sheep, will give you all the options you need as a dancer, not just one.
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 1:50 PM"Yes, you should respect your teacher (after all, you're paying to learn from them) and do it their way in class." << Totally true.
Ditto if you're dancing in a troupe, or studying a well-codified technique (e.g. Suhaila Method).
That being said, there are certain things that are going to be hard to achieve if you do not exactly copy the same mechanics. If I want to have a hip-hop influenced lock-tastic look like The Indigo is currently doing or like Urban Tribal, it would behoove me to learn the techniques that *they* are teaching and using (like chest lifts that don't move the shoulders).
Does it go the other way? If I want to do powerful hip bumps, I could get a more powerful look using my glutes. Does that make it Tribal Fusion? I was taught by an Egyptian to use my glutes to support shimmies, and there are a gajillion convos on tribe about how to achieve the "proper" Egyptian shimmy (hamstrings, knees, quads, whathaveyou).
This isn't ballet, nor is it Bharathantyam (with all the movements written down and danced that way for centuries). It's still a folk dance that doesn't have well defined rules, and as such, even in any particular style, there aren't strict rules.
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 2:25 PMTo clarify the point I was trying to make – which had nothing at all to do with artistic freedom…
I've only been dancing for 2 years, and I've only been in classes for 1 year so far. I'm still at the "foundation" level on a lot of things, so that's the perspective I'm seeing things from.
If my teacher is showing me something for the first time and says, "use your shoulders, not your stomach," either I should do it that way or ask why we're not using our stomachs. Could it be because using the stomach will screw up the back half of the move we haven't learned yet? Absolutely! Hence my statement "there might be a reason for it."
On top of that, getting away from chest lifts for a moment – hip bumps. Not all of them SHOULD be using the glutes, or else they all look the same. So learning how to do them without the glutes first, then adding the glutes later for accent makes sense. (at least to me)
And there is always, always, ALWAYS room to adapt for serious injury or other physical limitations. I would never pretend otherwise.
But at the same time, if you never try to do anything a different way from what is "comfortable" or from what you already know, your creative toolkit won't be as full as it could if you try to do it the way that's being taught. -
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Re: how to do chest lifts correctly
Thu, May 29, 2008 - 8:54 AMi agree and disagree! (i put a cushion on the fence to it wouldn't hurt ^_~)
what i mean is, i think it's good to learn it the way you are being taught, to learn a move as many ways as you can for that matter. and do it that way in class, but of course continue practicing, so your body doesn't forget, the other way(s) you know a move. then, when you are dancing for yourself, you can use whichever one feels more appropriate. using hip bumps as an example, you might want to not use your glutes and do something softer for certain music, but lock them when you are dancing to something with a lot of "bam!" in it.
i probably just reiterated what you all have said in another way, but that is how i see it.
happy hips ^_^
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