what's the deal?

topic posted Wed, April 23, 2008 - 2:15 PM by  slade
with New Agers? I am very confused as to why they believe so fervently some of the things they do, like stuff about reptile people and Atleanteans and orgonite and ascended masters, and this attitude they have that if someone quote unquote channels something, it must be holy writ.

Why do they seem to have turned their brains off and just take a lot of science fiction as the gospel truth?

I take reiki, and unfortunately, a lot of new age woo-woo goes along with that. I just smile and nod, but god, it irritates me so much it makes me feel like I have to pee. The teacher (who I do think knows her stuff re. *reiki*) was asking us last night if we had felt "earth changes" or a "vibrational shift" last saturday, and about a third of the class started going "yeah, cosmic, dude" (not literally, but you get the idea). I'm sitting there thinking that I didn't feel a damn thing.


slade
posted by:
slade
New Orleans
  • Re: what's the deal?

    Wed, April 23, 2008 - 2:59 PM
    You touched on one of the greatest sources of my own cognitive dissonance.

    I like to be scientific and rational and look for explanations to things. I love anatomy, psychology, sociology, any and every science that explains how things work in general and how people work in particular. I like to think of myself as pretty rational.

    That being said, I also want to believe there's more out there. I want to believe in psychic vibes and angels and the healing power of the color purple. I am a Reiki master (though I hesitate to use the word "master" as I don't really practice or teach ... let's just say I got all three degrees several years back). The stories of the conventional religions don't make sense to me (sorry, but I apply the same degree of "how could you believe that?" to the stories in the Bible as I do to Scientology) but I wish there were SOMETHING I could believe in. I settle for a vague mishmash of somewhat spiritual feelings. Ism.

    So basically, my rational analytic mind tells me pulls me toward Richard Dawkins and James Randi, but then there's the part of me who still does my Reiki and believes I am actually making myself or others better with mystical energy. I cannot reconcile these. What's a girl to do?
    • Re: what's the deal?

      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 4:17 PM
      I feel you Eve. I just posted under the 'what god is your god' thread and in spite of that, I still have these feelings that there ought to be something more. I am atheist but I'm a believer in karma. It seems odd that those two things could co-exist in one person, but there it is.
  • Re: what's the deal?

    Thu, April 24, 2008 - 4:53 AM
    And there seems to be a disproportionate amount of woo in the belly dance world, too! Honestly, it drives me up the wall. I'm a naturalist/humanist and I believe that everything has the potential to be explained and explored through scientific methods.

    Have you read Carl Sagan's book The Demon Haunted World: Science As A Candle in the Dark? It's an absolutely fantastic treatise on skepticism in an increasingly woo-woo world. I highly recommend it!
    • Re: what's the deal?

      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 5:06 AM
      Asharah, I totally agree with your first paragraph. The Woo gets on my nerves in the worst way and while I know that everyone dances for different reasons, if I have to hear once more about how bellydance will help me connect with my womb, I'm gonna vomit. Last time I checked my "womb" was a tissue-lined reproductive organ that is kind of a pain in my ass.
      Thanks for the book recommendation.
      • Re: what's the deal?

        Thu, April 24, 2008 - 5:24 AM
        Yes, there IS a high amount of woo in the belly dance world. I teach Pilates at a Yoga center that is also very woo centric and I can speak the language when I need to. What's sad and odd to me is the level of judgment that is felt by the non-woo people coming from the woo people. Isn't judgment the opposite of positive woo-chi?
        There are times I wish I could put on my Woo Protection Hat of tin foil.
        • Re: what's the deal?

          Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:33 AM
          Isn't judgment the opposite of positive woo-chi?
          There are times I wish I could put on my Woo Protection Hat of tin foil.

          (snort) that's funny!
    • Re: what's the deal?

      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:22 AM
      "And there seems to be a disproportionate amount of woo in the belly dance world, too! "

      I think those woo-woos you are hearing mean something entirely different, darlin...;)

      I'm pretty safe from the New Agers. I stomp all over their bunnies and unicorns and just create bad feng shui in general. I don't mean to...it's this damn horribly inappropriate sense of humor.

      ("You're sooo *dark*, Michael!!" *cringes, turns back and secretly genuflects)
      • Re: what's the deal?

        Thu, April 24, 2008 - 1:55 PM
        My pagan friends call me "Buzzkill Cuindless" because of my natural tendency to make mincemeat of their most cherished and deeply held beliefs. When I'm not doing that, I'm pointing out the science behind the "mystical" practices they use.

        Pagan Friend: Mmm... I'm feeling some negative energy. I need to ground and center. (Closes eyes and takes a few deep breaths)

        Me: You mean, you're feeling an amount of stress that you currently consider undue and therefore need to inhale deeply for the purpose of releasing endorphins?

        PF: Umm... yes. Thanks, Buzzkill.

        Me: Always happy to disappoint!
  • Re: what's the deal?

    Thu, April 24, 2008 - 6:26 AM
    I agree. My experience is that the principles of Reiki are great, but I have yet to work with a Reiki Master who really has it together. (Just my experience! I'm sure there are some great ones out there.) I've been attuned up to level II, and that's when I gave up on that and decided to just keep working on it on my own. (Really. The first attunement I did with three other people, and they weren't feeling any energy at all, they couldn't get anything, so the master just ignored it and moved on to the next thing. The second one was so filled with other woo-woo that I gave up.)

    Additionally, there are some other approaches to healing that are based on other methods - like Donna Eden's Energy Medicine, in which she works on tracing meridians and tapping acupressure points, or Barbara Brennan, who requires her students to do full courses in physiology and anatomy in tandem with her studies. There's plenty of woo-woo to be found in those who follow and practice in those camps as well, but the basic info is good.

    Those of us who want to keep the woo to a minimum are still faced by those who would like to chalk up any kind of alternative healing modalities as woo-woo, thanks to the over-infusion of the crazies, and that's too bad.
    • Re: what's the deal?

      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 1:57 PM
      It's not that alternative healing modalities are all woo-woo, it's that there's no genuine science behind them. The theoretical constructs are never submitted for peer-review. There's no statistical analysis of alternative medicine techniques in comparison to mainstream medicine and placebos. I have yet to see one piece of evidence for "Chi Meridians" or "Crystaline Structure Clusters". I've yet to read any peer-reviewed study involving spinal adjustments or acupuncture. It's all anecdotal.
  • Re: what's the deal?

    Thu, April 24, 2008 - 6:41 AM
    "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" - Karl Marx

    Often interpreted as "Religion is the opiate of the masses," or, "Religion is the opium of the people." No matter the people and no matter the religion, the saying holds true. Richard Dawkins and others have done numerous studies on the fear effect of death. Rather than deal with this perfectly natural and rational fear, many humans cling fervently to a belief structure that allows them the conceit that, through their actions, they will somehow be able to cheat death and live forever. No amount of rationality will desuade the true believer. They are impervious to logic.

    However, I'm not advocating a 100% pure scientific utopia where the people believe in nothing. I personally have a religion, though I would call it a practice rather than a belief. I also understand that, at this point, I have no rational or scientific reason to hold my beliefs nor do I have any objective evidence that my practice works. What I do have is anecdotal evidence, which holds true on a personal level no matter how impermissible it is in a scientific construct.

    Most exorcists require a prospective daemoniac to go through a full medical workup to find any possible physical or scientific cause of their symptoms before they'll agree to performing an exorcism. The reason is that the Catholic Church accepts science as being an aspect of reality, and one that they choose not to claim expertise in. Likewise, whenever I experience an event that can only be described as "Fortean", I choose to investigate all rational and scientific explanations before moving on to the irrational and mystical. Most people don't do this and will just accept their "gut feelings" as true. Some of these people venture into what I consider to be full blown psychosis, engaging in a purposeful complete break from reality. In the end, though, I kind of feel like that's what religion is: A purposeful psychosis.
    • Re: what's the deal?

      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:38 AM
      Well stated, Cuindless.

      I do do energy work; I do have beliefs, but they don't really deal with the afterlife. I am an "experiential" pagan; I tend to disbelieve (or at least to just leave it alone) until I experience it.

      So I don't want to "dog on" new agers for having beliefs that to me are odd. What I am "dogging on" is the Star Trek-like quality to their beliefs and the fact that they are unsubstantiated (one NA will simply use another NA to support his beliefs, in a closed loop). And I simply have no experiental evidence to support *any* of their claims about chemtrails, orgonite, etc.

      makes me nuts, it does.
  • Re: what's the deal?

    Thu, April 24, 2008 - 9:08 AM
    Can we add to that people who say things like: "Science is sooo far behind alternative medicine." I'm sure alternative medicine and herbal supplements may have their benefits, but the total disdain for anything scientific kills me.
    • Re: what's the deal?

      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:24 AM
      I DO have a spiritual side - but it's very practical and has nothing to do with an organized religion, an unorganized woo cult or putting anything in front of or above science. I have low woo tolerance.
      Wooot! To the low-woo peeps!
    • Re: what's the deal?

      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:51 AM
      Diana, re: medical advances.

      I've been coached that the best way to cure headaches is to boil an onion and put my head over the boiling pot (SAFE!) and let the vapors enter my ear.

      Yes, put my ear five inches from roiling water. That's brillant! Those stupid neurologists telling me to take low-dose antidepressants to help ease headaches don't know what the fudge they're talking about.
  • Re: what's the deal?

    Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:47 AM
    Could someone give me a wee primer on Reiki? It's easier to ask people who know it inside out then shift through Wikipedia.

    And maybe a little info on Dawkins? I've tried to read through his article on Wikipedia before but any article that even mentions Stephen Jay Gould (even if they're con) makes me furious beyond all comprehension... I HATE GOULD and my brain refuses to be exposed to him!

    I used to date a fellow who's family is into into space invaders and government conspiracys. They were right no matter what (of COURSE Hitler was BFF with aliens, and of COURSE we're descended from reptiles, duh, this guy who actually TALKS to aliens said it, and since the government denies it it must be true). They all kept telling themselves that they were all geniuses therefore they knew better than everyone no matter the subject (uh, please don't try to tell me about the history of bellydance. Um, finger cymbals aren't morse code. No, you actually have NO evidence to say it's entirely Lebanese. No, Gaelic is not at ALL related to Hebrew just because they both have nasal sounds. Wow. You're pretty dumb.) I know a few flipping brillant people, and they're all always questioning themselves and others, because truth is more important than being right to said brillant individuals.
    • Re: what's the deal?

      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:56 AM
      I just tried to post this and it disappeared. This is the response I got today from my reiki teacher who told me Tuesday she had "channelled" information for me and would send me the info in an email.


      "Ok. First of all we cleared out all "Dark Force" influences throughout all time and space and lifetimes and any beliefs that needed healing with regard to theses energies. We shut down any and all Substations around your home, workplace and cleared all spaces. We removed all vocats which are vows, oaths, and curses placed on you by others and placed in by yourself throughout all time and space. Whether it affected you or others, and these were nullified and all involved were called to receive healing. All soul fragments were found and healed and cleaned up and returned to you. All objects placed in your physical body by anyone other than yourself were nullified and removed, throughout all time and space. All incarnations past and future. Any congestion of energies were removed and smoothed and healed and replaced with light, peace, harmony and love. Any thing that could not be healed and returned to you at this time was sheilded, protected, and put in place for healing at another time. Let me know any further work is needed. Donations for this work are accepted of you would like and find this of value. "

      Uh, that's what she told me last Tuesday. so what's the "channelled" message? And what's a substation?

      slade
      • Re: what's the deal?

        Mon, April 28, 2008 - 3:26 PM
        Your hard drive has been defragmented. Consider this a Spiritual Defragging. That will be $4,590... *Blessings of Love and Light!*

        Save yourself Slade. Run away! It's a cult!

        ~*Spoonie*~
    • Re: what's the deal?

      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:58 AM
      Dr. Richard Dawkins is a British scientist and mathematician who is most famous for writing the book "The God Delusion". He is a very outspoken atheist and the host of the discovery documentary "Root of All Evil". In the documentary he interviews various religious scholars and preachers about the intricate details of their doctrines while asking some very difficult questions regarding evolution, tectonic plate structure, astrophysics, cosmology and logic. Here's his website:

      richarddawkins.net/

      I'm a huge fan of his work, even though he'd likely consider me a superstitious cretin.
    • Re: what's the deal?

      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:14 AM
      Dr. Richard Dawkins is a British scientist and mathematician who is most famous for writing the book "The God Delusion". He is a very outspoken atheist and the host of the discovery documentary "Root of All Evil". In the documentary he interviews various religious scholars and preachers about the intricate details of their doctrines while asking some very difficult questions regarding evolution, tectonic plate structure, astrophysics, cosmology and logic. Here's his website:

      richarddawkins.net/

      I'm a huge fan of his work, even though he'd likely consider me a superstitious cretin.
    • Re: what's the deal?

      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 2:26 PM
      *puts on woo hat* Insert the word "supposedly" whenever necessary; I don't feel like typing it every time. :)

      Reiki is an energy channeling healing mechanism, a laying on of hands. Level 1s can do it in person and on others. Level 2s can do it from a distance and also learn symbols to strengthen the energy. Level 3s can heal from a greater distance, take less time to heal in person, and can attune others to the energy. You cannot practice real Reiki unless you have been attuned by a Reiki master. Reiki energy pours in through your crown chakra, flows down to your heart, then down your arms and out your hands.

      The donation thing comes from a Reiki story I barely remember ... something about when it was originally discovered/practiced, the practitioners gave it away for free to anyone who wanted it, which included cripples and beggars. The cripples and beggars were healed, of course, but they did not go out and become productive members of society, they just continued begging. Therefore the Reiki folk were pissed and decided that they wouldn't do it for free from then on because it clearly wasn't appreciated. It's actually taught to ask for something in return, money or bartering.

      I bought into that when I got my degrees ... now I think it sounds kinda hokey, as if it's a built-in excuse for asking for things in return for giving a stationary massage. I thought it was a little wonky when they were telling me this is how Jesus healed people. Seems like too convenient of a connection -- and certainly not one anyone could verify.

      Again, cognitive dissonance. It is a very relaxing process, if nothing else.
      • Re: what's the deal?

        Thu, April 24, 2008 - 3:01 PM
        "I thought it was a little wonky when they were telling me this is how Jesus healed people"
        When they can turn water into wine, they'll get my attention. :)
      • Re: what's the deal?

        Thu, April 24, 2008 - 3:47 PM
        "It [Reiki] is a very relaxing process, if nothing else. "

        See, I think there's a fair bit of psychological benefit from a lot of the alternative healing methods, even if I'm not convinced that most of the woo-woo (I love that term, by the way) surrounding them has any truth to it. I feel the same way about tarot and other fortune readings---I don't think there's any actual future being told, but I do think it allows some interesting psychological exploration.

        There's an interesting correlation between secularism and social security; it's been documented (I can email anyone a pdf of the paper) that levels of religious belief are lowest in countries with strong social-welfare systems and higher where such systems are weaker. Of course correlation isn't proof of cause, but it's a VERY interesting correlation, and wouldn't suprise me if it were true. I've heard it said, "there are no atheists in the trenches." I'm a die-hard atheist, and I'll still resort to praying madly in times of crisis. It doesn't make god real, it just makes it easier for me to cope and feel in control of situations where I have no control at all. Conversely, it's a lot easier for me to dismiss the idea of God or an afterlife when I'm sitting comfortably in my climate-controlled condo with at least the next few years of my life reasonably mapped out. Who knows, as I get older I may chicken out of my atheism... the concept of ultimate ending sure isn't much fun. But then, just because it isn't pleasant doesn't make it untrue.
        • Re: what's the deal?

          Thu, April 24, 2008 - 5:35 PM
          Taran, totally true. I'm a lifelong atheist, child of agnostics who sent me to Sunday school just so I'd understand what all the other folks were talking about.
          The closest I've come to believing in an afterlife is when I lost a lifelong friend to a really nasty prolonged death from colon cancer (pay attention to your poopers, ladies! She died because she ignored symptoms; you're not supposed to get colon cancer at age 28). After she died I felt like I *understood* for the first time, how people find comfort from believing in an afterlife. It felt good to think she was out there somewhere, watching us and laughing. But then the analyst in me starting thinking how interesting it was that when faced with the death of someone close to me, I suddenly Got It (but am still a confirmed nonbeliever).
          • Re: what's the deal?

            Thu, April 24, 2008 - 9:10 PM
            How was the Opium, Mellie? You know, some people get addicted...

            Seriously, though, it's time for a little of Cuin's life story.

            My father died when I was 5. For those of you who don't know me, I'm firmly convinced that I'm an undiagnosed Aspie. I had problems relating to people all through my childhood. I stacked things. I had a head for numbers. I continue to be an Eideticer. I didn't talk until I was 3.5. Regardless, I wasn't what you would call a "neuro-typical" child. When my father died, I remember my family standing around and saying, "He's in a better place now."

            Confused, I looked up at my family and said, "In a box?" Their horrified faces stick with me until today. They tried to tell me that he was "with God" or "watching me from Heaven", but I remember looking at his ashes in a brown plastic box and thinking about the impermanence of life. In the end, after 25 years of struggle and hardship, this was all that was left of him.

            Throughout the following years, I tried to take comfort in the idea that he was "still with me"... I really did... but that nagging feeling remains. The analytical part of me recognizes that, deep down, we're just a series of electro-chemical impulses that temporarily manifests itself. If there *is* an afterlife, it's probably more similar to the Einsteinian ideal than any sort of "Heaven" that we mere humans have dreamed up.

            Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. That's the first law of matter/energy. It can only be transfered, transformed or otherwise altered. The only difference between a living human and a dead corpse is the presence or absense of electro-chemical energy. In that statement may lie the truth in life after death. Does my father still exist? Sure... his energy does, at least... it briefly fueled a fire, I know that much. But as the person I knew and loved... no... only in my near perfect memory. Hopefully that's enough.

            Story time over.
            • Re: what's the deal?

              Thu, April 24, 2008 - 9:36 PM
              Cuindless,
              Your "in a box" comment reminds me of a friend's blog she just posted. Totally off topic, but want to share because I think the humor will be appreciated here:
              "Recently, my grandmother passed.... during one of the quietest most somber moments when the men were screwing down the lid on her casket, my brother Mike leans over and whispers "They’re installing the anti-zombie lock. Good."
              Everyone in our pew was struggling to remain composed and not burst out laughing, and Thank God I have a family with the same sick sense of humor as me!"
              :)
            • Re: what's the deal?

              Fri, April 25, 2008 - 5:41 AM
              "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. That's the first law of matter/energy. It can only be transfered, transformed or otherwise altered. The only difference between a living human and a dead corpse is the presence or absense of electro-chemical energy. In that statement may lie the truth in life aft