We may have discussed this before, but Lee inspired me, so here goes.
Lee, you mentioned that so many dancers don't want to know about ME culture, especially vis a vis bellydance/folkloric dance.
That's interesting. First off, I wonder why. When I got bitten by the BD bug, I read all I could find (not that i'm an expert--I'm not).
I assume other people would do the same.
Second, it seems to me that if you are going to do as much cultural co-opting as I do (and a lot of bdancers do--costuming, music, food, textiles, jewelry), you really have a responsibility to that culture to learn about it. This point was clearly made to me in an essay I read that was written by a Native American woman who was absolutely furious with white Americans who wanted to partake in Native American spirituality, especially the ones who changed their names to "Jaguar Stormwalker" or somesuch and held sweat lodges, yet didn't care enough about NA culture to learn about their history (you also get into the issue of what the settlers did to the NAs and how they have been treated). This woman felt that if a white wanted to learn NA spirituality, she/he should also care enough about the culture that it came from to learn about the culture and the issues they faced. And I really think she is right.
That's not to say that I approve of elements of ME culture; some elements sicken me. But I still want to learn. It really is fascinating and rich.
Agree? Disagree? Ideas?
Lee, you mentioned that so many dancers don't want to know about ME culture, especially vis a vis bellydance/folkloric dance.
That's interesting. First off, I wonder why. When I got bitten by the BD bug, I read all I could find (not that i'm an expert--I'm not).
I assume other people would do the same.
Second, it seems to me that if you are going to do as much cultural co-opting as I do (and a lot of bdancers do--costuming, music, food, textiles, jewelry), you really have a responsibility to that culture to learn about it. This point was clearly made to me in an essay I read that was written by a Native American woman who was absolutely furious with white Americans who wanted to partake in Native American spirituality, especially the ones who changed their names to "Jaguar Stormwalker" or somesuch and held sweat lodges, yet didn't care enough about NA culture to learn about their history (you also get into the issue of what the settlers did to the NAs and how they have been treated). This woman felt that if a white wanted to learn NA spirituality, she/he should also care enough about the culture that it came from to learn about the culture and the issues they faced. And I really think she is right.
That's not to say that I approve of elements of ME culture; some elements sicken me. But I still want to learn. It really is fascinating and rich.
Agree? Disagree? Ideas?
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 10:53 AMAgree, agree, agree!
I also think that as we are exposed to or as we expose ourselves to other cultures, we become either a) more American (in the melting-pot way [I subscribe to the "melting-pot" idea of America, not the "tossed salad" one]) or b) we become in one way or another a part of that culture, or it becomes a part of us. (Can you tell I haven't worked this all out in my own head yet?)
For example, I am a white-bread American, a WASP really. Blonde haired, blue eyed, grew up in Alabama, public schooled, had a typical sort of American upbringing. But through education and university study I became bilingual and bicultural (in the sense that I feel comfortable in American or Hispanic cultures, and can move easily between the two; but in the opposite way of people who are raised in Hispanic culture and learn to be bicultural in America), and so I consider Hispanic culture to be a part of me, and that it is a strong part of my identity. So I feel a HUGE responsibility toward Hispanic culture.
With bellydance, I this less, but I still feel responsible to learn everything I can about ME culture, and that it's becoming a part of my identity too, even if it's in a relatively small and not very outwardly obvious way. If nothing else, I feel like the responsibility for learning about one's co-opted cultures should at least cultivate an intense respect for that other culture, and that it will generally produce a desire to interact in positive and legitimate ways with that culture. By legitimate ways, I mean ways that are not just hokey feel-good, "look-at-me-I-am-cool-and-different-and-unique" ways, but in ways that really engage the culture and worldview, and help to "broaden one's horizons" so to speak.
I do hope this makes sense! I feel like I'm rambling and inconveniently enough, I have to go to a meeting now. Anyway, I can suggested a couple of thought provokers: Richard Rodriguez. _Hunger of Memory: The Education of Richard Rodriguez_ or _Brown: The Last Discovery of America_. Also some of his interviews available online. If you're interested in the interviews let me know and I'll hunt them down again and post links here.
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 11:05 AMInteresting thread.
In my mind, ME culture and Native American spirituality are completely different things.
I believe that spirituality and culture are two different things.
I feel that the spiritual/religious practices of a culture should be respected and understood before partaking of them....I have no problems "borrowing" from another culture in terms of clothing, jewelry, food, etc. without taking the time to read the history and traditions of the culture. I do not take the time to read a book about Chinese culture or study Buddhism before getting some delicious stir-fry takeout.
It is true that in some cultures, religion is closely intertwined, but I maintain the point of view that there is a difference between them.
Culture: the tastes in art and manners that are favored by a social group
Spirituality: Having to do with deep, often religious, feelings and beliefs, including a person’s sense of peace, purpose, connection to others and beliefs.
So, my own personal view is that I enjoy aspects of ME culture (dress, music, food) but I do not feel an obligation to connect with the history or spiritual practices of the Middle East or any other location connected with bellydance (India/North Africa/Mediterranean).
However, if something catches my interest, I will read/study it just out of curiosity. -
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 11:44 AM"So, my own personal view is that I enjoy aspects of ME culture (dress, music, food) but I do not feel an obligation to connect with the history or spiritual practices of the Middle East or any other location connected with bellydance (India/North Africa/Mediterranean).
However, if something catches my interest, I will read/study it just out of curiosity"
You know, I never thought of it that way. It makes more sense to me now.
I think maybe my vehemence in my earlier post comes from being a detail/context obsessed person, and I hope I haven't offended anyone. -
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 11:45 AMNah. Well, ya didn't offend me, anyway.
Regardless, when you are involved with the BD communniyt, you tend to learn about the culture and history of the ME whether you want to or not, because in normal conversations these topics do come up regularly. It just comes with the territory. -
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 11:46 AMI wish I did not have Typing Dyslexia. :-/ -
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 11:50 AMTyping Lyxdexia is abd.;)
I wish Tribe would make posts editable.
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 12:19 PMPetra, clarification of my post--No, I dont study chinese culture before I eat chinese food. I'm referring to my own very heavy immersion in middle eastern culture--I spend a great deal of time/money on the trappings (clothes textiles jewelry music) and am so immersed in the dance that it is central to my identity. As a result of that deep immersion, I feel I need to also study the culture. In addition, **for me** this means being aware of the problems the women face in these countries (remember i wanna do international human rights someday). I see this study as a way of showing respect to a culture that has greatly enriched my life and from which I have taken much.
Also this studying blasted away a lot of my preconceived notions that *all* Muslim women are oppressed creatures who need us Western women to rip their headscarves off and liberate them.--just a side note
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 12:21 PMOh, I grok the point you made about the difference between culture and spirituality. I gave it as an example of a group of people (whites) taking an element of another culture (native americans); it could have been that they were taking something else and the NA author in question would likely make the same point, (valid in my opinion) -
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 12:47 PMTotally valid. I grew up in MT and have great reverence for NA culture AND spirituality. :-)
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 11:10 AMAw Slade... ya had to go there! (lowers head to hands contemplating pulling hair out)
I actually have REAL work I have to do right now but in the words of the Terminator... I'll be back!
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 11:18 AMI agree as well. The dancers I've met who *don't* want to learn about the culture confuse and irritate me. I don't understand how they can rationalize their ignorance to themselves. Maybe it's because I've always been (sometimes obsessively) interested in the study of other cultures and folkways. I can understand how someone wouldn't want to learn every little detail, but it seems to me you have to at least have a basic understanding of the history to really understand the dance both in and out of it's original context.
I think too many people culturally co-opt things because they're more interested as being SEEN as somehow "authentic" than actually doing the work and BEING authentic, which brings us back to the ego driven types. -
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 12:05 PMPetra,
Yes, culture and spirituality are different things.
I'd venture to guess most belly dancers consider themselves more *invested* in the dance than they do in ordering Chinese takeout. ;)
However I culture and spirituality as being intertwined and related, especially in those cultures that have such a deeply embedded spiritual grain.
Arab music (and the dance is of course related to the music) is a part of their culture and yet it also has roots that are tied to their spirituality www.turath.org/ProfilesMenu.htm It developed along with Islam. Their songs were related to the Koran. Sometimes their lyrics were based on spiritual poetry (another cultural art related to spirituality) In fact Om Koulsoum started out singing from the Koran and is (and likely forever will be) the most famous Arab woman ever. She passed away in the 70s and they STILL play her music nightly on Arab radio. Americans who don't listen to "old school" stuff likely have at least been exposed to her in the Said Mrad remakes.
There is a musical concept called Tarab, that can best be described as "ecstasy or trance" - spiritual in nature and an integral part of their music to this day... this is ALSO reflected in the good oriental dancers. So the cultural art of dance has spiritual ties. The audience-performing artist relationship ALSO has sort of a spiritual understanding in it- the artist is trying to MOVE the audience emotionally, and when this happens the audiences STILL react the same ways they used to when it was all spiritual based- by calling out things like Aiwa (let's go), Allah (God), and more.
Do you enjoy beautiful textiles, tiles and even henna with Arabesque patterns? That is an Islamic art related to their history. www.salaam.co.uk/themeofth..._index.php
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabesque
Historically speaking art received much of it's support from religions, and it in turn exemplified the ideals of that religion.
So, yes, culture and spirituality are different, but I believe learning about them as they intermingle and as they truly effect the people of the regions creates an understanding much more thorough, which in turn (in my experience) just makes me love it that much more.
We're talking about a culture that in every day life they say "God willing" multiple times a day to many different situations. Often multiple times in one conversation. Their spirituality (and I'm talking about the multiple spiritualities of the region) is a part of their society and culture. It shapes who they are and how they think, therefore it shapes how they express themselves in their art forms and how they react to art.
Then again, it's not my goal to dance for American audiences. My goal in understanding more helps me dance better for my intended audience. It has also taken me on a beautiful journey- getting to know some AMAZING people, learning about rather uh...interesting cultural differences, some subtle, some not so subtle, helping me see aspects of their society that make life very difficult over there and also make the transition over here a great challenge.
...and it's really great that the food kicks ass. :) -
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 12:17 PMI learned about Islamic art in an unusual way. When trying to co-design my first tattoo with my tatto artist, I said several times, "No eyes. No faces." She finally asked if I was Muslim and explained Islamic art.
Sometimes, the culture finds us. :-) -
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 12:26 PMIncidentally, (this is me feeling like I should "defend" my stance and i am laughing at myself for feeling the need to post this) it's not that I think learning about ME culture and religion isn't a worthy pursuit.
Everyone's personal life has different context and circumstances. I work full time and I'm a full time Psychology major. I can only DO so much....and as bellydance is my hobby, not my livelihood, learning about the ME has to take a back seat to work and school by sheer necessity. My brain can only hold so much! lol
I can explain the intricacies of Freudian Theory, analyze T-tabels and statistical analyses and offer educated theories about how breastfeeding affects children's personalities and learning styles later in life.
But I'll be darned if I can tell the difference between Turkish Rom and Lebanese bellydance.
Now, if my major were Ethnic Dance I would have no excuse. ;-) But it's not. So, I just do what I can and enjoy the journey. -
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 12:50 PM...and Petra, that makes total sense. There ARE only 24 hours in a day, and some of those we have to sleep.
I am very happy that there are people in the dance as a beloved hobby or even just as a sort of fun hobby, or simply exercise with jinglies. I was only pointing out the intermingling of spirituality and culture and how it effects dance and art. To me it's important that there is room for everyone to enjoy it in the place they have in their lives. :) -
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 1:04 PM"To me it's important that there is room for everyone to enjoy it in the place they have in their lives. :) "
So true.
Plus, it's much healthier than crack. ;-)
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 2:03 PMOh I hear ya' Petra. MOst of my studying of ME culture is of their politics/religion. I know the general history of BD (egypt, Tahia Karioca, Hollywood's influence etc), but I don't know much more than jack squat about the differences in the folkloric dances from different countries. Funny, I just printed out an article on cane dances and one on jug dances (which I had never heard of) from Gilded Serpent today. -
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Re: cultural co-opting
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 2:05 PMPreface my earlier posts with the proviso that the bellydancer has the time and resources to do the studying.
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