...or rather, the question is simple enough, but the answer(s) are not.
If you are a believer--one or many Gods/Goddesses--in what sense do you believe? What I mean is: do you believe in an actual, separate entity (entities)...or is it more of an archetypal thing, i.e. a symbol for a certain power/talent/energy which you are trying to invoke from within yourself?
Oh and I don't have a clear-cut answer for that, because I'm not sure what I believe...so, as far as I'm concerned, there is no "right" answer.
*Leans back leisurely in anticipation of a day's worth of reading*
If you are a believer--one or many Gods/Goddesses--in what sense do you believe? What I mean is: do you believe in an actual, separate entity (entities)...or is it more of an archetypal thing, i.e. a symbol for a certain power/talent/energy which you are trying to invoke from within yourself?
Oh and I don't have a clear-cut answer for that, because I'm not sure what I believe...so, as far as I'm concerned, there is no "right" answer.
*Leans back leisurely in anticipation of a day's worth of reading*
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:34 AMFio,
I do not know if there is an overlord God, and I don't care. I don't know if there is an afterlife, though I have had enough wierd experiences that I tend to believe there is.
The loa (lwa) I work with are spirits (I do rather believe in disincarnate beings, but I'm not closed to the idea that they're "really" parts of our own brains).
I don't have any big answers. I do what I have found works. I guess I have more of a practice than a belief.
I really couldn't care less about issues like heaven and hell.
slade
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:42 AMWow... yeah... I don't believe in God or gods. My sense and awe and wonder towards the natural world gives me enough sense of reverence. And it also inspires me to be the best I can in this life, because it's the only one I have, in the only world I'll ever know.
Of course there is no right answer, but this is the answer I find works best for me and my personal philosophies. I am the source of my own power, not an entity, spirit, or god.
"I don't have faith in faith
I don't believe in belief
You can call me faithless, you can call me faithless
But I still cling to hope
And I believe in love
And that's faith enough for me... and that's faith enough for me."
- Neil Peart, "Faithless" -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 3:53 PMI'm with Asharah :). I find the amazing breadth and complexity of the universe more than grand enough. Adding in little anthropomorphic deities, pleasant as they might be, just seems extraneous.
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 12:59 PMI believe in a higher power, but I don't pretend to know what it is or how much it cares (or if it cares) about us. I pray to God because that's what I was raised with, and I'm comfortable with it. I've considered returning to Christianity because I do crave that connection to said higher power that I felt when I was younger, but I acknowledge that it's just one way to connect and happens to be the way in which I feel comfortable connecting and other ways are just as valid. However, if I do so, it will be to a different denomination from that in which I was raised (Southern Baptist). I've considered joining an Episcopal church, but I'm still up in the air about it. I'm really not sure how often I'd go if I did.
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 1:28 PM
I believe in spirits, both evil and benign. Within this belief I tend to think that a Mac Daddy of the spirit realm could reside.
Secondary observation: Despite the fact that I don't believe in God or Jesus, per se, my daily speech is peppered with both words.
I routinely exclaim "Jesus!" and have been known to pray to God in times of fear, anger or drunkenness... please God~ I'll never drink again if you just don't let me barf. hehe... -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 2:48 PM(laughing) Lee, I think we're all Christians when we're "driving the porcelain bus." -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 6:28 AMSpoon and I made a conscious choice to stop using those words a few years ago. She started saying "Gods" instead of "God", while I switched over to "Science". It's funny to hear me at work. "Oh for the love of science..." -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 8:41 AMWhen the chips are down I'm still a Roman. ;-) Though I do sort of look at Christ as the embodiment of bad luck.
~*Spoon*~
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 12:50 PM"It's funny to hear me at work. "Oh for the love of science..."
The idea of this is filling my brain with silly phrases: "Science Damn It!" and "Oh My Science!" LOL -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 12:56 PMI replaced "Holy" with "Logical" as well, so at work I'll say things like, "What in the name of all that's logical are you doing?" Some popular phrases of mine:
"Science be praised!"
"What in the name of science?"
"What the fallacy?"
"Oh for the logic of science..." -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 12:58 PMOh those are brilliant!
I'm especially fond of "What the fallacy?"
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 1:09 PMDude, that's awesome. -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 1:57 PMYep. That's my Pooky. I like em Nerdy...
~*Spoon*~
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 5:14 PM"What the fallacy?"
ROFL! -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 6:26 AM"What the fallacy?"
That is simply marvelous.
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 1:51 PMI believe in a universal energy that we all have and that also connects us to each other. And I think we are, as individuals, various facets within that energy. I often think this of Gods and Goddesses and any writings about them as being symbolic (or do I mean metaphoric? I think so. Mid-PM brain fog has hit) in that scheme.
I do enjoy the concept of ritualistic practice I've witnessed in several kinds of religions, more because I like quieting down and summoning that which is greater than just me.
Afterlife? I think so. No clue what it's about, or what it's like. Same goes with spirits. I think they exist, but I know little about the details.
Heaven and Hell? Hmm. I liked William Blake's poem on The Marriage of Heaven and Hell, which brought up all kinds of questions: is it that black and white? How many shades of gray are in the middle? How much of their "place" is experienced during one's life? Or perhaps (likely, I say) it's all about one's experience and perspective. But that's another matter for another topic.
At least, that's where I'm at right now.
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 4:14 PMHrm...life, the universe and everything, huh? Ok, here goes...
I was raised in a Christian home...sort of...my Mom is Christian, my father plays at it mostly out of fear of being wrong and not fitting in.
I am not Christian. I do not believe in God or Gods or Goddesses. I do believe that there is something divine in us all. While I do enjoy the amazing happenstance that I was born a (mostly) sentient being, I don't fool myself into believing that there is a higher power outside of myself that made it happen.
So for me, it's not a question of Who or Why but rather a question of What Now? Right Now is all we have so I'm learning to live in it as best I can. I can't concern myself with heaven or hell because, even if they do exist, it's not my decision in the end where I might go when I die if I go anywhere other than into the earth eventually as I suspect.
At the ripe old age of 45, I'm learning to let go of the what if's and enjoy my life. It's about bloody time...
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 4:37 PMI was raised a Baptist, but converted to Wicca later. When i found out that Wicca is primarily based upon history that never happened this bothered me because I'm a big history buff, and so I'm Atheist now. I consider myself spiritual, but not religious. I.e., i find peace in listening to the rustle of the wind or watching the heron fly across the lake, but i don't care why or how the heron got here, it is because it is. If there is a deity of some sort, a heaven or a hell, i don't know and no one else does either, so i don't care.
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 6:27 PMI am a Christian, of the Reformed tradition. An "I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, and in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord...." Christian, and I do affirm the historic creeds of the Church (with that capital "C" I don't mean Catholic Church, though that's how it's commonly used; I use it to mean the whole Church, Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, et al.). Not because I grew up reciting them (because I didn't), but because I have grown in my faith through a few crises and (sometimes skeptical) intellectual study, and I think the creeds are excellent, concise statements of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith -- the things that truly matter for one's salvation (i.e., I'm not going to quibble over whether one must be dunked or sprinkled in baptism, whether the pastor/preacher/priest should wear robes, whether "high church" or contemporary worship is right -- the externals do matter to an extent, but they're not "deal-breakers") (Though I do have strong opinions about those, of course) (How do you like that -- three parenthetical phrases?). I believe in the trinitarian God of the Bible (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) but I certainly can't explain the mystery of how that works. I believe that God is a real, actual Person who is sovereign over all His creation, that mankind needs redemption from sin, and that the only way to find that is by faith in Christ through the Holy Spirit.
I also think that many Christians misunderstand what it means to live a Christian life, and they miss out on a lot of the joys God has blessed us with. Sacramental living is important, and I think that living life to the fullest goes hand-in-hand with a Trinitarian worldview, and doesn't mean "Christians can't have any fun," as we're often perceived. I also don't think that being a Christian means that one must have so-called blind faith and be a generally unintelligent, rationally unsophisticated, or altogether ignorant person, which is another common and unfortunate image we sometimes have. And I don't believe there is any disconnect between Science and Christianity, or Reason and Christianity, or any of the other typical Rational-Intellectual-Field vs. Christianity controversies that go around from time to time.
So there's the what I believe and some what I think on top of it, just for fun. -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 12:51 AMBhasat expressed pretty much exactly what I would have, amen Sister!
(I love when I get off so easy). ;} -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 7:28 AMGlad I could help. :-)
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 8:14 AMOkay, I'll share with you my fuzzy, wish-washy notion of how I view religion. I suppose if it were a religion, I would be Jungian. The whole Collective Unconsciousness thing resonates with me and synchronicity has been a bizarre constant throughout my life. Weird, weird coincidences that make the hair on the back of my neck rise and and the insides of my teeth tingle. I also dig his use of archetypes, which, for me, are powerful enough to be actual entitities.
I don't think I'm going to go too deeply into this because--again--my views on this are fluid and subject to change. Much as I would love to just totally buy in to a particular faith--and there is much comfort to be had when you do--I just can't quite do it. In the meantime, I use the word "God" as this catchall term for, well, everything: fate, Cosmos, God(s), Godess(es), loas, entities, karma, mojo...whatever. I "thank God" for various blessings/good fortune and I "pray" when I feel that I need strength. I suppose that is silly, but I do.
As far as any deep discussion about Jungian beliefs, well, I'm just not qualified and wouldn't dream of attempting any discourse without Dr. Petra's guidance. ;)
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Sat, April 26, 2008 - 12:38 AMAs usual, I'm late to the topic, but I'll give it a go.
I tend to believe that "God" or "the Mystery" or whatever is so big that our brains have no real ability to grasp it in its' entirety.
IMHO, because of our limited ability to perceive, we personify facets of the energy so that we can relate to them.
Hopefully that makes sense and isn't too "woo"..I'm pretty wiped out today.
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Sun, April 27, 2008 - 7:38 AMCuindless,
I think this would be a good place to stick some of our comparative polytheistic religion notes.
Anthropomorphism
Numinism
Henotheism
Duotheism
Theocracy
Etc...
All religions can actually be filed into set categories with very firm definitions, regardless of if the individual who espouces a particular belief thinks that it's never been done before... surprise! It probably has. It probably has a name and it can probably be explained in a very simple and clear cut way. You just have to know the right terminology for it. Also this is a much better way to group similar religions together because this way actually links the system of belief instead of a geographical or time line relationship.
For instance... Hellenismos is a Classical grouping of beliefs and practices that wouldn't be considered a structured religion today. The Hellenic reconstructionists of today have really streamlined the process into a working and comprehensive religion. But Hellenismos is an Anthropomorphic religion.
Hellenismos is commonly compared to the Roman Religio but the Religio is not an anthropomorphic religion, it is in fact a nuministic religion. This fundamental change is what makes these two religions almost completely unrelated though on the surface they may appear to be mirrored reflections of the other. Other Nuministic religions include Shinto and and some Native American beliefs. (I can't say just how much in the latter because I haven't studied it all that much but I am aware of permiating core concepts.) Other Anthropomorphic religions include Asatru and possibly Sanatana Dharma. (Again I'm not as familiar with the latter so someone else should follow up on that and either correct or confirm.)
Personally there are supposedly over 30,000 divine spirits in the Religio but I would be hard pressed to name more than 100. I have one of the most internally consistent religions in the world and it's one that does not require much of a leap of faith. Numinism is essentially the essence of energy and thoughtform. I have no official beliefs for an afterlife or what happens when you die. Death is a mystery that you get to when it happens. I keep my religious duties to my country and to the Gods separate from my personal spiritual needs, those needs are fulfilled by trance. My Gods are not physical people somewhere, they are recorded in the history of war and the gift of strategic genius. They are the many acts and variations of the concept of love. They embody Victory and the spirit of the people. And there are many lesser types of divine spirits such as the Venti, the Genius Loci, the Lares and Penates, the Manes and Lemiae. All in all it's a very well organized religion. That's probably not what you were asking for but it's probably the closest thing to belief that you'll get from me. :-)
~*Spoonie*~ -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Sun, April 27, 2008 - 8:26 AMCthonism is the worship of natural or geographic phenomena directly. Comparitive Theologist C. Scott Liddelton espouses in his doctoral thesis that cthonism is the most primitive and therefore probably the first religious belief in human history. It can most easily be described with the sentence, "The mountain is god."
Anthropomorphism is the application of distinctly human characteristic to non-human entities. In religion, it means having gods or goddesses that are distinctly human in there traits. Most religious folklore and mythology falls into this category. When Jehova is described as a "Jealous God" in the Old Testament, that is engaging in anthropomorphic belief. C. Scott Liddelton states that anthropomorphism is most likely a result of attempting to connect with the divine through sympathy and is used by religions to establish that connection with the lay faithful. Almost all religions have an anthropomorphic component.
Numinism is the religious belief that divine entities are wholly separate from humanity in every way and cannot thereby be considered "entities" at all. Most "civilized" religious have some nuministic component to their worship. Numinism was regarded by Catholic theologian Rudolph Otto as the "most sophisticated of religious beliefs in that it seeks to understand what is inherently ineffable while accepting that it is impossible. "
Henotheism is the belief that all divine entities are actually representations of a single divine source. Henotheism was coined by theologian Max Muller when describing Egyptian paganism (or Khemet). He described it as monotheistic in principle but polytheistic in practice. He considered most pagan religions to fall into this category, and he even posited that Catholicism and most Christian sects technically fulfill the requirement to be in the category as well. He argued that having three distinct entities (father, son and holy spirit) was just as henotheistic as classical Egyptian paganism.
Duotheism, AKA "Dualism", is the belief in two opposing supreme beings, usually one "good" while the other "evil". Duotheism was first represented in Zoroastrianism with the worship of Azura Mazda and Ahriman (though it could be argued that Zoroastrianism is actually henotheistic... more on that later). Unlike bitheism, which implies a complimentary or harmonious relationship between the deities (such as Wicca), duotheism specifically implies opposition. -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Sun, April 27, 2008 - 5:00 PMDamn, Spoon...Cuin...
Even your religion is too smart for me. I'll come back to this when my head is hydrocodone-free.
Besides, I have something to add about the "false history" of Wicca (I'm putting this in quotation marks because I know this is a controversial subject...and one on which I am largely ignorant)...some more of my radical beliefs on spirituality in general.
As I said, I'll wait until the fog clears.
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 1:44 PMCuindless, I assume you have read Otto's _The Idea of the Holy_?
slade -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 3:19 PMOf course. Why do you ask?
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Sun, April 27, 2008 - 11:32 PMThank you Spoon and Cuin for providing clarifying terms..I love it when I find out there really are words for what I was thinking of.
So using the provided definitions (If i understood them correctly) these are the terms that would apply to me:
Henomorphism
Animism
Anthropomorphism
"Besides, I have something to add about the "false history" of Wicca (I'm putting this in quotation marks because I know this is a controversial subject...and one on which I am largely ignorant)...some more of my radical beliefs on spirituality in general."
*gets the popcorn ready* :) -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 3:21 PMDo you mean animism as in believing that all things, whether living or not, have a spirit of some sort, or do you mean animist in the more generalized term as in believing in the "anima" or "breath of life"? -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 3:33 PMI believe that all things are made of energy, and so are "alive" in some sense.
Not sure if I"m using the term correctly, if not just tell me..I'm all migraine-y and so may not be thinking very clearly. -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 8:39 PMYou're using the term correctly. Animism is the belief that all things are imbued with a spirit. Some people confuse that with the more general belief in "Anima", which is called the breath of life. -
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Re: Loaded, ridiculously complicated religious question....
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 1:25 PMHenotheist, animist and numinist if all three can coexist in one belief. I have a way of relating to Diety that draws from the idea of thought forms and the Collective Consciousness, it's part me, part all of us and part something I cannot truly understand, it's also part of All That Is.
The Force comes close but is a bit too impersonal for me, I call my personal Diety MA, she's closest to the classical concept of Isis( Hellenistic)in character but much more imformal. I realize that this Deity is largely my own construct but She serves a purpose for me anyway. Kinda like the Wicca thing, it's all BS but it works anyway.
More later maybe.
Lav
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