Politeness and Debating

Nothing wrong with asking for facts, IMHO.
Unfortunately, sometimes people get defensive because they are emotionally attached to their ideas, and when this happens, they (mistakenly) see a request for information as an attack.

Asking for facts is not rude in the least.
I saw it happen recently on a thread and I simply posted a couple clips that (at least in part) were relevant. :)
I didn't have any stake in the "disagreement", but this was on the Burley vs Belly thread.
For the record (and relating to that part of the OMG ENDLESS thread) I wouldn't choose to take my clothes off in front of children and I DO believe there is a certain amount of knowledge one should have in order to perform this cultural art form. I believe you should know the rules before you break them and I believe in knowing the individual elements you are fusing.
Do I want burley and belly fused? Honestly, not in a way that would cause confusion for the public.
But does that mean I ignore the history (and some current conditions) of this dance? No.
There were and are women who use this dance as "marketing for their other services". I KNOW women HERE who do it (yes, they're from over there). This style of marketing/dancing IS belly dance and is also usually not considered "family friendly". Just because I don't identify with it personally does not mean I can deny it's existence. There are also some pretty bawdy performers over there. Reem is one- but she is not on youtube. Her videos are hard to find. Just because most American dancers don't know about her or the "underbelly" world of belly dance does not mean it does not exist.
Many, many Arabs see and acknowledge both sides of belly dance; the respectable "Souheir Zaki" side and the "she wore platform boots and a painted on mini dress with cutouts and scooted around on the floor" side (this "rug burn on the butt" image courtesy of Reem). Taking a deeper look at youtube (as my countless conversations and direct observations are simply anecdotal) you will find both "family friendly" dancers and rather un-family friendly dancers posted by Arabs. You will also read comments by Arabs- some raving about the beauty of the art and the others calling dancers whores for dancing this way as according to Islam one should not earn money by showing off ones body. Why are so many American dancers so caught up in what they want to see that they deny the existence of one or the other? I don't know.
There are very very few people in America who truly know intimately what the dance, oriental dance (not folklore) is and was over there. Book knowledge, video clip knowledge and occasional workshop from someone from "over there" and even occasionally traveling over there for classes does not compare to either working over there extensively or learning directly from someone who did so and who is/was immersed in both the dance and culture for all of their adult life.
There are experiences that are never written about. There are private party events where big name dancers dance COMPLETELY different from how they dance when the TV cameras are rolling (although sometimes there WERE cameras at small events and there ARE some videos, just not commercially available). There are cultural experiences that one can hardly put words to. There are things you simply cannot learn from books or video research- not when they're not written about or filmed.
...oops, sorry, back to topic at hand.
Yes, claims should be backed up with evidence.
I'm often careful how I word it though, as (we all know) some people are sensitive.
I likely wouldn't say "Well, that sounds like a load of crap to me. Prove it."
I'd think I might get a better response from "I never thought of it that way. I'd love to see it with links. Can you posts the articles or video clip links for me to see?"

Nothing inherently rude in it, though it would be presented rudely (seen that happen). It's unfortunate that people either get defensive or ignore the request completely. Had this come up for a course I was taking online through my university recently. My opinion was in the minority, but I was the only one prepared to back up my opinion with facts. When asking others to do so, I get faced with defensiveness or silence. Sadly, this was an education course. The fact that they couldn't back up what they were saying, yet they're going to be teaching kids makes my head hurt.

Yes, I've encountered the same thing. I think the issue is not that asking for facts is rude at all, but one of few things happens. Either a) in an intense debate, the fact-seeker asks a question in such a way that his/her tone of voice seems pushy; b) the fact-seeker doesn't but the other person perceives it as such; or what I think is most likely, c) the other person realizes that there are holes in his/her argument or knowledge, or that (s)he might not be right, and rather than admitting either of those things, (s)he resorts to getting offended, either purposefully to save face or not purposefully just because of a physiological reaction to an intense debate and wanting to get out of the situation (intellectual "fight or flight," if you will). That's been my perception, anyway.

As to why people associate questioning with accusation, I'm not sure, but I suspect it has a lot to do with the fact that most people don't carry on the kinds of conversations that require a lot of information and a lot of digging, and honestly, I think most people don't often have conversations with people with whom they disagree just for the sake of finding out what the other person things and without either party intending to convert the other to his/her own side of the discussion. Does that make sense? Thankfully I work in a place where many of us are on the same page about a lot of things, but many of us are on opposing sides of some rather hot topics, and most of us enjoy intense debates about our topics, or just casual discussions to find out other's points of view, without having to get all rankled about it. We just go on being friends and enjoy finding out more about each other's eccentricities. (I'm going to miss working here when we move!!)

Cuin~

I think part of the problem lies within an intellectual decrepancy between you and the individuals you are attempting to engage in dialog (you're probably smarter than them... ooou intimidation!) and the other part of the problem lies within current social norms regarding intellect in our society. IMO, most Americans are comfortable with middle-of-the-road intellect, not too smart, not elite, but not too dumb either (not pitiable or a target for ridicule). This is a category I call tepid intellect, not too hot, not too cold, just comfy.

From your posts I glean that you're what I call a Trained Thinker, one who is schooled in logic, argument and the scientific method. As such you possess succinct skills for establishing criterion, gathering evidence, and teasing out facts from within the honeycomb of fallacy. Neither you, nor Spoon are tepid intellectuals. You dare to surpass the glass ceiling on intellectual advancement in America. Hence you are met with hostility, the last bastion of defense for the cornered tepid intellect :-)

Cuindless,

I'm feeling really old and experienced today. I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm pushing 47 and have been asking this question for nigh on 30 years. Yours is an EXCELLANT question. The answers to it were EXCELLANT answers.

I'm just enjoying the hell out of myself, watching y'all go through the same questions and answers I've been going through. What fascinates me even more is the sheer number of you that are gathered here examining this stuff.

I said back in the day, bemoaned the fact even, that people weren't trained in critical thinking. And, it was even more poignant for me because I had no interenet to connect me with 100 some odd frikken brilliant, thinking people. In 1988, I thought the world was literally gonna end in a "tepid" pool of stupidity. Now, I'd say the same thing, today, only, the one's that are trained and skilled in thinking are leaps above those that aren't because you guys and gals can objectively communicate with each other almost constantly. And your communication webs are constantly changing. You are exposed to new minds, thoughts and "facts" constantly, and have the fortitude and confidence to keep digging. You guys are the critical mass that everyone benefits from.

I sit here a lot more confident in the human species than I was 20 years ago, even 5 years ago. Thank you very much.

Todd

PS: Samira, your aside on the modern belly dance culture in the Middle East today was fascinating. I haven't been in the BD world very long, but I have been a lawyer for 20 years, and in and around the businesses wherein the dancers have performed for 40 years. (My dad is a lawyer, too, and represented, befriended and sued some of these very same people.) I could riff on the reasons American belly dance business is what it is for several paragraphs. We'll have to exchange that else where.

Why can't I take my own advice.
I TOTALLY INADVERTANTLY started a small flame war on a local BD forum by pointing out a factual error in someone's post and correcting it. I thought I did so in a very respectful manner.
Apparantly, you are NEVER to correct this person. She lost it and sent me flaming emails & even called my friends to biotch at them about me. Remember "The Author" this week? She has nothing on this woman.
Later, I received several PM's from people saying, "We just let her say whatever she wants because if you correct her frequent erroneous comments, she will MAKE YOU SORRY. Unfortunately, you found out the hard way."
They were right.
Ugh.

People who appreciate/respect factual debates and those who can't handle them should probably be segregated on separate continents.

j/k........or am I?

Essentially, people are not used to having their convictions questioned. It is considered polite (in the average, non-scientific debate) to assume that the other person knows what they´re talking about. If you ask for facts to back them up, it might be construed as saying: "I don´t believe you did any research before forming that ludicrous opinion, so please produce some information to prove me wrong, otherwise I´ll gloat."

Of course, this sort of "politeness" doesn´t get you anywhere if you wish to have any real debate at all. This is why the scientific community has a different set of "politenesses" for their interaction.