Cuin's thread on gender made me think of a topic that i would be interested to other people's thoughts on.
What is equality?
In our culture, the popular notion seems to be that equality exists when everyone is treated the same way.
But my question is - is that REALLY equality?
I think that we would probably all agree that concessions should be made to level the societal playing field in the cases of people who live with physical handicaps (blindness, deafness, mobility problems, etc).
But...equality is equality....right? Making concessions for handicapped people isn't treating everyone equally.....after all, they get better parking spaces! ;-)
What about racial profiling? Experts agree it is often warranted....but it's not fair to all races. Should all suspects bet treated equally in a criminal investigation, regardless of circumstances?
Treating everyone equally, except in SOME cases kind of defeats the whole point, doesn't it?
So who should equal treatment apply to?
In a previous posting I stated that one of my favorite quotes is from the documentary film "Fat City" (which I would recommend to anyone, especially people with school age kids.):
"Fairness does not mean that everyone is treated equally. Fairness means that everyone gets what he or she needs."
To me, equality means that each individual receives what they need to succeed. Or in the case of punishment, that each person gets a punishment that "fits the crime" and enables them to learn from their mistakes.
Thoughts?
What is equality?
In our culture, the popular notion seems to be that equality exists when everyone is treated the same way.
But my question is - is that REALLY equality?
I think that we would probably all agree that concessions should be made to level the societal playing field in the cases of people who live with physical handicaps (blindness, deafness, mobility problems, etc).
But...equality is equality....right? Making concessions for handicapped people isn't treating everyone equally.....after all, they get better parking spaces! ;-)
What about racial profiling? Experts agree it is often warranted....but it's not fair to all races. Should all suspects bet treated equally in a criminal investigation, regardless of circumstances?
Treating everyone equally, except in SOME cases kind of defeats the whole point, doesn't it?
So who should equal treatment apply to?
In a previous posting I stated that one of my favorite quotes is from the documentary film "Fat City" (which I would recommend to anyone, especially people with school age kids.):
"Fairness does not mean that everyone is treated equally. Fairness means that everyone gets what he or she needs."
To me, equality means that each individual receives what they need to succeed. Or in the case of punishment, that each person gets a punishment that "fits the crime" and enables them to learn from their mistakes.
Thoughts?
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Re: Defining Equality
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 10:41 AMThis came up in my jursiprudence class in law school. And it's a tough one. For me, equality means (ideally) equal *opportunity*, but that is just a fantasy (paris hilton will have way more opportunity than I will, for ex). And the thing is, we are *not* all equal. Some of us are extremely bright, or rich, or gorgeous. Some of us are lazy or stupid. Arguendo, compare me to teh most scum-sucking person you know. Under the law, I think we should have the same legal rights and responsibilities. But I sure as hell don't think I'm "equal" to my scum-sucker; I think I am better because I hae taken responsibility for my life, planned ahead, worked hard, sacrificed, and am not wallowing in the sewer, refusing to work, refusing to learn a marketable skill, doing drugs, and blaming the world for my problems.
I'm in a hurry; more later. -
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Re: Defining Equality
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 2:23 AMThis is something I've thought a lot about. I like the notion that we are essentially treated equally in the eyes of the law, but I continue to be pretty anti-egalitarian... Meaning, I don't like the recent trend in schools of giving everyone an award just for showing up, or dumbing down a curriculum just so all the students get it right away. I was told in 8th grade that the reason I was teased so much (from 2nd grade to 8th grade) was because I always tried to be the best and that threatened the other kids... Ummm EXCUSE me? What a bunch of nonsense!
I think it boils down to that I believe we should have the opportunity to excel, and none of us should be prevented from living to our highest potential. -
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Re: Defining Equality
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 2:33 AMUh - one more thought, on criminals
Ok, so I believe in free will, and while some people may feel they have no choice but to resort to crime and other criminals are just messed up in the head, either way, these people choose that lifestyle, actively or passively. And if you choose that lifestyle, you are also choosing to relinquish some of that equality that every human should have. You throw away some of your value by doing harm to and making victims of others. Live for yourself, and cause no harm to others. (I think that could be my personal philosophy!) -
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Re: Defining Equality
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 10:07 AM"You throw away some of your value by doing harm to and making victims of others."
I tend to agree. I like how you stated that.
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Re: Defining Equality
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 6:07 PMI'm hesitant to get my feet wet in this discussion, because I haven't thought this through entirely, but here goes....(!)
I think that equality fundamentally is not an issue of how people are treated, but in its essence it is the respecting of individuals' humanity and the dignity that that entails. Obviously the way people are treated is directly related to this, since validating and respecting one's humanity requires that a person be treated in a way that appropriately honors his/her fundamental dignity. Unfortunately, I think it's just such a difficult thing to pin down, and as with other things, it's so much easier to focus on externals (how one is treated, laws, discrimination) that we miss the internals.
That said, I don't think it's bad to make exceptions for individuals with certain special circumstances (physical handicaps, etc.). I think that is an obvious way of honoring that individual's personhood, and should be done with care and grace. I don't think it's always the best thing for the government to go around making laws to control behaviors and effectively create (and enforce) broad group distinctions, but I also recognize that people in general don't exercise enough personal moral responsibility to take care of these things, and so the government steps in. ( And since the government is there to protect its people, then so be it. To what extent it should, I don't know, and don't pretend to.)
I don't necessarily think that equality means we should level all playing fields. I think we need to recognize that we are finite creatures, and that no, really, we can't do anything we set our minds to, whether because of physical limitations, economic limitations, or just because we were (un)lucky enough to be born where and when we were. In the US thankfully we have a great deal of economic and social mobility, but in other places, as we all know, people don't. Call me hard-hearted, but I think that that is just one of the unfortunate realities of how human life works out. I don't think that it's a happy situation, but it is what it is. At any rate, I do think there needs to be level playing fields in terms of equal pay for equal work, equal opportunity for employment/education for qualified/talented candidates, etc., but I also think that not every person is equally skilled, talented, or gifted, and we should recognize that and work with it. Not in a demeaning, "you-could-never-hope-to-do-this" kind of way, but in a way that discerns the particular gifts and talents of people and hones those to the greatest benefit to the individual and to society. I'm not saying that I don't think there can be rags-to-riches stories, or cases of people who beat all the odds of their upbringing or circumstance, or people who work extraordinarily hard to overcome physical, emotional, mental, etc. handicaps, but I think by and large, if we Westerners could come to terms with our finiteness a little more, and work within our bounds, we might just be a little more productive. (Maybe what I'm going for is contentment. At the very least, a touch less of the kind of greedy, jealous, run-everyone-over ambition that sours so many things. So much striving.)
I think people are fundamentally equal in their dignity, humanity, and worth and beings. Not necessarily in what we are able to do, or in our circumstances. I'm not sure what the line(s) should be (if any) among different groups, or how/if they should be drawn. Some always will, because we need categories to understand things. But it sure would be nice if we could accept the categories for what they are without them affecting our view of each other, don't you think? -
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Re: Defining Equality
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 10:03 PM"I think people are fundamentally equal in their dignity, humanity, and worth and beings. "
That is a great observation - I agree with this version of equality. I once saw an interview with Melina Gates (Bill Gates' wife) and she said, "Nobody has more or less value than anyone else." And I remember feeling struck by her words. (Lately it's been a struggle for me to live by that, though.)
This is such a convoluted issue and I don't even know if there is any answer that would satisfy it.......
So back to all people having equal value (which is a Humanist viewpoint, BTW, if you are interested in labeling such things). I really believed that until I took a Forensic Science class and began to question the value of people such as career criminals, serial child molestors, white collar criminals who prey on the hard work of other people, etc. I seriously began to question whether I believed that all humans have equal value and right to dignity....I began to wonder if some people's behavior invalidates their inherent value.
For me, the jury is still out on that. Having seen some horrific things in my studies as well as some truly good and inspiring things, it's difficult for me to assign equal value to all people. I'm not saying I'm right, BTW - just that it can be a struggle to do that sometimes. -
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Re: Defining Equality
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 10:04 PM(Melinda Gates)
And the first sentence was supposed to say "I generally agree"
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Re: Defining Equality
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 7:41 AMI agree that it's hard to apply the idea of fundamental human dignity and value with cases like you've mentioned. I think you're right that behavior can invalidate inherent value. Being a Christian, the way I resolve that is in believing that people were created with that fundamental dignity and equality in that sense, but sin mars everything, deep down, and it's through redemption that we are restored. The sort of crimes you mentioned are acts that go against the way we were created to be and destroy it, but redemption takes away the soul-deep destruction we suffer for our sin. But since the government doesn't (and arguably shouldn't) deal with matters of spirituality, we have to work on the assumption that we are all still worthy of having our dignity respected. In some cases that might mean different things in practice, but I am in no way qualified or remotely capable of splitting those kinds of hairs.
Hopefully that doesn't sound to full of woo, but there you have it. That's the way Scripture reconciles the problem, in a (very small) nutshell.
And thanks for reminding me of the humanist label. I've never know much about different branches of philosophy, but I did study Humanism a bit in some history classes in college. -
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Re: Defining Equality
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 10:26 AMBhasat, it doesn't sound woo at all. I think you are right on a spiritual level, that as far as the Divine is concerned, we are all equal in His eyes because he can see that little spark of Christ in us (I am not christian, but am trying to work with your example,as it is a good one). I guess as a lawyer, I think that that is fine and well for the afterlife, but I do think that in the meantime, we humans are stuck here on earth to do the best we can within this mortal coil. And I agree with Petra and others who posted that choosing to perform atrocious acts (hey, I've seen a lot of crime scene photos) does rob us of our "humanity" (if you will); but that also begs the question of what is humanity? I think the more moral of us strive to exist as more than mere predatory animals (which we are) and many of us succeed. And I think such a person does have more worth than Dahmer (maybe not in the spiritual sense--that's for another thread). Because remember, dahmer made a choice, and he made that choice repeatedly.
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Re: Defining Equality
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 10:27 AMIt makes sense to me that we are all BORN with equal value and worth as human beings.
But whether or not we retain that value and dignity depends on the behaviors we choose as we live our lives- which applies not only to whether or not we harm others, but what our individual definition of "success" is.
As far as the law goes......I think that it can be incredibly difficult to make laws that are fair and treat everyone equally all ofthe time. Sometimes, a few people are just going to fall through the cracks and the same laws meant to help them actually hurt them.
Let me give you an example:
I went to Cosmetology school about 20 years ago. There, I met a young woman who was going to school on some kind of government program for single mothers. Meaning, she was not paying for school, public tax dollars were.
One day I was lamenting about how hard it was to come up with tuition (I was working for minimum wage at the time). She rather nonchalantly said, "Just have a kid." I was like, "Huh?" She proceeded to explain to me that she heard if you were single and had a kid, you got everything for free....housing, food and even school.
She was totally serious- she had gone to a bar, picked up a guy, managed to get pregnant and had the baby so she could life off the government. I was appalled.
OK, that is rather an odd scenario but it has stuck with me all these years. Under the law, she is a single mother so she gets "equal" treatment as a single mother, just like other single mothers. Now ALL young women do not get free housing, food na education...just some single moms. Doesn't matter WHY you are a single mom....just that she is.
BTW - I have no qualms with single mothers - my Mom was one for quite a while. I almost was one. My issue is with the fact that a law that applies equally to everyone may not always be fair to everyone, especially when people can take advantage of it like in this example.
Another hotbed of controversy is the US's Juvenile Justice System. There are those who believe that all juveniles should be treated as adults and juvenile sentencing should be the same as adults for the same crimes - equal treatment for the same crime.
Yet researchers in Florida found that incarcerating juveniles along with adults actually does more harm than good....those juveniles were more likely to reoffend and the adults did some serious physical and psychological harm to the juveniles during the incarceration. But their crimes and sentences were equal under the law.....so?
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Re: Defining Equality
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 11:01 AMSlade and Petra, I totally agree with both of you. I think figuring out exactly how all this works out in practice, and especially in a legal system, is an unbelievably complex -- maybe impossible -- task. And I think you both hit on something important, that we make choices in our lives that affect so many other people and things.
Complicated!
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Re: Defining Equality
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 11:03 AMThat's a sore spot for me Petra. It really chaffed me going through school that my paltry income was considered extra income on top of my parents' even though I paid my own bills, gave my family money to live help pay for my room and board, and my own parents weren't able to afford to pay for my school on their income. Thus, I was not eligable for grants until I turned 24 (the age at which the government deems you independent for the purpose of doling out grants). Yet, someone whose family could afford to pay for their school and did not even have to work could get a grant because they had popped out a kid at 17,were considered independent solely because they had done so, and therefore did not have to report their parents' income on the FAFSA forms even though their parents paid for everything they had.
My sister was not eligible for grants until this year because she had to report my parents' income. She's lived on her own for over three years, paid her own rent and bills, etc, but she wasn't considered independent because of her age. The difference? This year she got married. They've been living together and paying their own bills, but until they tied the knot, she was still considered dependent on our parents for the purpose of determining eligibility for grants. Nothing's changed except her marital status, but that makes a difference in her eligibility.
Grants are supposed to level the playing field and allow students who can't afford to go to school to do so. Yet, it seems like the people who really can't afford it get screwed anyway while others can use the system to their advantage even though their families could afford to pay their way. -
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Re: Defining Equality
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 4:36 PMHow about this one? There are students at the community college where I work who apply for need-based Pell Grants, get them based on their low income, and drop out of their classes as soon as they get the check. -
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Re: Defining Equality
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 5:42 PMSlade, isn't that illegal? I thought you ahd to pass the class or pay back the money? Or do they just disappear?
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Re: Defining Equality
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 5:41 PMI totally hear you on that, Diana. I didn't start college until I was 33. Care to guess why? (rhetorical question)
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