"i think the protestant reformation was a valuable agent of change in history, but I think that it is time for another major change among the protestant sects. . . "

What would that be? (mind you, I also do).

>>>>>>>I love Alister, seem him on a few occasions and even got to have lunch with him once. <<<<<<<

I wish I could say the same! I'm enjoying his book "Christianity's Dangerous Idea," and I've also read his "The Twilight of Atheism," "In the Beginning" (-on the KJV of the Bible), "The Dawkins Delusion?" and I' ve dabbled in his Christian Theology. I want to read his work on science and religion---I guess I'll have read 8 or 9 of his books by summer's end.

>>>>>>What I mean to say is that without Mary (and Christ and God) there is no redemtion?<<<<<<
You addressed that to Lorenzo but I can speak to the matter. The short (but incomplete) answer is: No. The reason being is that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are at the banquet of the Lord, which means they were saved or redeemed before Mary was conceived, and since there is no "pre-existence" of Mary, she cannot necessary for salvation.

But as I said, that is incomplete. Many Catholics love to call Mary "the mediatrix of all graces." This doesn't make her "the fourth person of the Trinity" but it *suggests* something of a divinity about her which troubles not only Protestants but many Catholics. It's important to keep in mind that the *devotion* to Mary many Catholics have is not required of Catholics. If you would like to discuss this further, I could refresh my memory on the details.

>>>>>>>As for the protosents preaching a hellfire theology, I tend to agree with you.<<<<<<<

It's funny but every time I mention something like this to a member of the clergy---regardless of denomination---I get the same thing: Where *is* that guy who is giving all the hell-fire sermons? I haven't heard one in decades!

That's anecdotal, of course, but I think there's much less hellfire preaching than there used to be because the younger generation of Protestants don't believe in hell and thus don't fear it! I think the younger generation is more open to be *drawn* to heaven and that this is why the environment is such a powerful image for them. Seeing how they fit into creation, how one might glimpse God in creation, that seems much more appealing to them, and speaking of "God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth" is certainly in tune with the Gospel...