This post was deleted by Jav

Caves near us where used for thousands of years so reports tell' they piled large stones ontop of fires then rolled these stones into the caves' central heating stylee'
Brush and bushes where then layed against the entrance to seal it'
One cave has a sink in it of where hot stones where rolled to heat the water within' then sick folks used to bathe in the waters with herbs and chanting'
Spirit filled place full of memeories'

Bliss!

Nobu +

" Thank you. "

No sweat.

;)

You didn't confuse me at all, and in fact, that was kinda what i was trying
to get at.

"I believe that they are pissed over the fact that the person leading the sweat lodge was doing so in exchange for money, thus defeating te spiritual purpouse of the rite"
You are quite right, and i also, do not like or approve of that. My point at that juncture, was that the discussion should involve us as fellow animists, rather than quoting
a religious leader. The salient points could have been made without the use of religion to justify the behavior which we all, agree, is reprehensible.

''Theres many ways to perform the rite that are acceptable, but accepting money in exchange never is''

That also was another point i was trying to get at. There is no one sacred way to do a sweat, and it is not owned by one people only. I claim my right to do a sweat, by authority
of the spirit, and i need no one to tell me what is correct and what is not. The plastic and greed i agree with- not having them present. they cheapen and take away its power. But to
insist there is only one way, and one people, that can run a sweat, is manipulative and myopic. THAT takes away from the sacredness too. That was my main point - lets talk about respect of spirit
and appropriation of cultural rights. I can agree about the appropriation. I will not agree that i cannot run a ceremony without someone elses permission.

Does that make sense?
Thank you for being capable of relating to me, i appreciate that. Thats what i don't like about experts and self importance, they make a statements but refuse to relate.

" to insist there is only one way, and one people, that can run a sweat, is manipulative and myopic. THAT takes away from the sacredness
I will not agree that i cannot run a ceremony without someone elses permission.

Does that make sense?"

Not at all, since nobody in this thread said anything like that.

'"It is no more acceptable, in the Indian world, for Indians to bastardize and sell Indian ceremonies than for white people to do that. It is not based on skin color."

'it doesn't matter the skin color of the person who does it. Selling the ceremony is a desecration."

****i know, its appropriation, hee hee.

"having your own sweats is fine. Not all sweat lodges are as formal ceremonies as the Lakota Inipi. There are different kinds of sweat lodge, some more informal than others. There are sweats that are just for two people, the healer and the patient. And solo sweats. There are vision quest sweats where you stay in the darkness alone inside the sweat lodge for four days. I have heard of stories of elders who, when it was their time to die, stayed inside the lodge singing their spirit songs until they departed their bodies for good. There are many ways to do sweats, and the spirits have all the best goodwill to help us."

****and i took the overall tenor of it to be discouraging. sorry i made it so complex. it was the "having your own sweats is fine" part that bugged me. i dislike systems of refrence that include one party being certified by another before commonality is found.


" I know that the "animism" of this tribe is essentially of the Graham Harvey variety, not original indigenous forms of animism".

That is something that uniformily irritates me, but what the hay, right? There is something that perhaps even the progenitors of this tribe do not take into account. It is true that many of the perspectives i have, may have influence from there, seeings how the meanful and respectful dialog that has occured in this tribe has been from those who studied his work. Frankly, im a bad studier. I didn't read the book or books.
I still don't, but its lovely others do. My ideas are relational dialog i have developed with long time members of this tribe, and my work as a reflection of mutual experiences, shared, and with respect and joy. The ideas i express are ones i have functionally practiced in my real life, outside of this lovely grove.

so see, original forms of animism is very important.

But one cannot relate in a meaningful and authentic way, if one does not first, figure out what animism is for yourself, and where it converges or deviates from traditional (to the context, ahem) practice. What it is in the very real world, so one can have a proper context and relationship with original forms of animism, (if still represented.). So 'original animism' is a loaded social anthropologist term, that can mean a whole lot of different things, depending on the c o n t e x t in which it is presented. This tribe is a two fold place. A place for those, who are seeking to form another, closer way of relating to their life place, and benefit from group support via disscussions and experiences shared. And, it is also a place for those who feel comfortable, to share how their practice or life way has been changed , and how they did it on a personal, and relevant level. Now this tribe is a whole lot more things than that, but that is a primary locus of relating here.

''And this applies to our non-human Relatives as well. To translate "bioregionalism" in these terms, it would translate as: our closest Relatives are those who belong to the same Place that we belong to, who together with us make up the spirit of this Place. Salmon and Juniper are closer relatives to me, for example, than Aardvark and Gerbil. ''


*****Aw, i'm just going to have to flat out disagree in a most complete way with you dear. We ARE ALL ONE. "let no difference be made amoung you, for whereby there cometh hurt" All relatives are close to me, in every and all ways. We have all breathed our very own, each others, molecules of sacred breath. In a real and practical way, anyones authority rests in the space in which it is recognized. my 2 cents.
arg.

''But the kinship relationship and the relationship based on monetary transactions are incompatible. ""

***** correct me if i am wrong, but i do beleive that is the one point that we all concede too, correct????

''So if being a "bioregionalist" means living in kinship with all your Relations of the Place you belong to, then the issue of charging for ceremonies is relevant. ''

yes, and? did you somehow think i thot its so cool to charge money? hmm?

i do hasten to point out, that ceremonies are paid for. Both ancient and modern. or is payment, to you, only a funny paper transaction?

flying and elder to a place to perform sacred ceremonies, and providing food and lodging, is expected, and takes.....some money.

people change their work shifts, call in sick, or travel some distance, it takes real money to take off, or travel. Yet, that money is only to
bring participants together with each other for meaningful relating. or healing, or what have you.

many people or groups hosting a sacred event, use real money to buy the food that is offered to both Spirits and community. Or in some
other way, find ways of getting real goods, to share with the community.

it is traditional, in many cultures, to present the medicine person with a pouch of tobacco. It seems to be acceptable to give a gift of 'american spirit' tobacco as the gift, right? and that costs money. myself, i prefer to grow my own ceremonial tobacco, so the currency is time and love.

'''If you live in any Place in North America, you live in a Place where the People knew that sacred communal ceremonies are not to be a source of individual profit. When our sister the Willow is being cut to make money for someone, how can she be cut with humble prayers? When the Stone Grandfathers are being brought in to make money for someone, how can they offer purification?""

*****really now, is this a real, or highly rhetorical question? im not selling anything lady.
let me counter that with- 'if you live anyplace in the world'!
If you are the same lovely gayle as has been in things like the ayahuasca forum, then you darn well know, that a simple look
at paleo archaeology, and pre and post clovis point cultures, shows us that peoples indeed migrated all over the frikkin' place.
and did it again. and again. and yet again. Ways change and merge, over and over again, in cycles older than time. If they did not
this discussion would be non existant. So was it rhetorical, or lectoral? i won't guess, you tell me. Change is the one constant you
may most assuredly count on, in any life experience.

i am now going to have a popsickle. or should i say, in a moment, a popsickle will have me. :)

Well, I think that's kind of the concensus we were all going for, that a) if you are not part of a certain tradition then you have no right to label your path as such, b) that in the strict Native American traditions making profit as sweatlodge is at best frowned upon, and at worst totally taboo, and c) that everyone has the right to sweat, to engage in ceremonies of this sort, so long as they are either part of your tradition, or have been given to you by Spirit......

Clearly the actions of the person in question in the article were off kilter......