I've been reading Harvey's Animism - one interesting thing in the section about objiwe gramar and personhood, is that not all animist see everything as a person - sometimes I think we have a tendency to embrace the "everything is sacred" mentality in our efforts to relate to our other-then-human relatives, or more that "everything is a person" . . . In harvey's conversation with obijwe he learns that they teach their young how to identify person hood, and the skill is not inherent. I think one thing that sets us apart, as bioreigional animists, in some ways, is that we see personhood in our local environments. Living in communities of other-then-humans the community it self has personhood, I am thinking . . . with that in mind Renee brought up a really good point in another post - like with malls and other icons of urban living - these are environments largely constructed by human social construct so in our more "urban" community what has personhood - and how does it gain personhood?
Harvey speaks about objiwe tradition some items haven't person hood on their own, but when they are used to construct something, the new thing does....
From my experience I have known houses with personhood, and some houses that did not seem to have person hood - apartment complexes don't feel that way to me and many commercial buildings don't either. . . what is interesting is the older buildings seem more alive to me for some reason - perhaps it is because their construction consists of more organic material, there design was more thoughtful - - i don't know.
How does others on here see personhood manifested?
Harvey speaks about objiwe tradition some items haven't person hood on their own, but when they are used to construct something, the new thing does....
From my experience I have known houses with personhood, and some houses that did not seem to have person hood - apartment complexes don't feel that way to me and many commercial buildings don't either. . . what is interesting is the older buildings seem more alive to me for some reason - perhaps it is because their construction consists of more organic material, there design was more thoughtful - - i don't know.
How does others on here see personhood manifested?
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Re: Personhood
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 5:59 PMevery thing is one mind from a panpsychist point of view... all is a person in my way of seeing it... but thats just how i see it. -
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Re: Personhood
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 6:55 PMWell, all is Brahma / Atman Brahma no? So I guess in that sense where you draw the lines of what is a person are based on what calls your particular attention. Like Fish said, not all tribes thought of everything as a person.
I for one understand that most man-made technological things are persons in a way, but they have a radically different energy signature, so I have a hard time fitting them into my personal pantheon of persons, lol. But some manmade things become sacred through ritual, through intention, through ceremony, and those thing undoubtedly become persons. But were they persons to begin with? I don't know.....once again, I think when it comes to man-made objects that the intent with which they were made has a lot to do with their personhood....but that's just how I perceive it!
:) -
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Re: Personhood
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 7:55 AM>But some manmade things become sacred through ritual, through intention, through ceremony, and those thing undoubtedly become persons. But were they persons to begin with? I don't know....<
I am often torn about this thought process, myself. Certainly, through ritual and sacred ceremony I believe so, but often wonder about concrete, asphalt, utilities, , et. al. With the exception of synthetic manufactured materials aren't most of these other things made from living organisms? Isn't earth and element at the base of their foundation when you think about what consittutes concrete and asphalt or even where electricity comes from? and where in the process does that stop, if at all? Do they just cease to exist as living because they have gone through another type of process than the human experience? Sort of like the cellulose argument .... cellulose is at the foundation of many synthetic things....cellulose being a plant organism..does it make everything a living person?
Things to ponder~LOL~like we haven't got enough!
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Re: Personhood
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 7:01 PMI'm going to have to think about that, seeing as I was treating chips of flint as things, scientific objects, and not persons...
Maybe it is part of a tradition -- someone has to teach you that this rock is alive. I read that part in Harvey, and he seems to say that: animism is taught, and children learn these ways of relating to other-than-human persons from there elders. Maybe this tribe is redefining the old tradition, something much needed I think. -
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Re: Personhood
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 8:13 PM'Maybe this tribe is redefining the old tradition, something much needed I think.'
I like to think of it as finding new ways to honor the old and old ways to honor the new...
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Re: Personhood
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 8:49 PMthats a neat way of looking at it cynthia...
"Maybe it is part of a tradition -- someone has to teach you that this rock is alive."
in some cases i think so... in others i would say that many animist communities worked with altered staates of conciousness where discovering that a rock is a person is possible via dirrect communion.
i tend to think that animist peoples develope relationship dynamics that suite thier needs, but there is generally a theme of person hood being discovered not placed upon some one.
the relationship between things and people doesnt allways exist in some animist communities... where as in others it may have existed more or less.
i beelive its up to you as an animist to explore for yourself how you go about discovering this relationship dynamic. -
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Re: Personhood
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 10:40 PMFish you articulated what I have been thinking lately. What does personhood really mean? -
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Re: Personhood
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 12:29 AMits not a desingnation its deciding and giving up dominion of what it means to be a person... its choosing to expand what we know what a person is... and not keeping it all to ourselves...
for instance...
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: Personhood
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 6:12 AM'its not a desingnation its deciding and giving up dominion of what it means to be a person... its choosing to expand what we know what a person is... and not keeping it all to ourselves... '
exactamente! (and not to dig up memories of old wounds or anything, llb, but I STILL say we're arguing over semantics--and NO pouting!!!...hee-hee-hee...)
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Re: Personhood
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 4:41 PMpersonhood, to me, means the gift i give myself, and the-other-than-me. personhood means how i want to relate to someone/thing. if i feel strong enough to stretch my ability to empathize, to encompass another, i do it. sometimes i don't feel strong enough.
personhood, to me, means my willingness to listen to the other. to have a conversation.
in this sense, i don't see it existing within people or things, but rather between us. -
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Re: Personhood
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 6:04 PMexcelently put Dr...
very very well put.
its how we relate... once again we bring new animism down to its definiton of being a relational ontology. you summed it up quite nicely.
and cynthia i wont pout...lol... but im big on semantics... sematics is the study of the meaning of words... when a discussion is boiled down to semantics we are discussing meaning in the attempt to communicate clearly what we mean... so im still really down with the sematic discussions because they clarify meaning... which is a good thing in my book.
; )
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