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I thought it may be interesting to discuss the influence of clinical narcissists in our culture in light of the current mess we're in...
A recent study about narcissistic bosses...you may recognize a crappy work experience from reading this...
www.sciencedaily.com/release...0948.htm
An interesting article in Slate...
www.slate.com/id/2213740/pagenum/all/
I'll see if I can dig up some info on a relatively recent study about how people gravitate towards narcissists as leaders in a crisis situation (if I can find it again :-)...
A recent study about narcissistic bosses...you may recognize a crappy work experience from reading this...
www.sciencedaily.com/release...0948.htm
An interesting article in Slate...
www.slate.com/id/2213740/pagenum/all/
I'll see if I can dig up some info on a relatively recent study about how people gravitate towards narcissists as leaders in a crisis situation (if I can find it again :-)...
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Re: narcissism and culture
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 3:12 AMI cannot find the original article about the psychology of the abuser that discussed narcissism but I find this one pretty interesting too...
http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:EyUBkfzj_TwJ:www.buzzle.com/editorials/1...hl=en&ct=clnk -
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Re: narcissism and culture
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 3:13 AMbetter link:
www.buzzle.com/editorials...4-61900.asp -
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Re: narcissism and culture
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 7:58 AMThanks for that link Canela, it's a good description of how a narcissistic relationship functions. Though, while some people are certainly more prone to being seduced by a narcissist, perfectly normal and healthy people can get sucked in too because the narcissist slowly erodes their self confidence. Also, narcissists often spend quite a lot of energy isolating their partner and cutting them off from caring friends and family - exactly the kinds of relationships that we all use to affirm our self worth and to be reminded of who we are (particularly if they can't seduce or manipulate the people around you and particularly if the people who care for you care for you enough to question your relationship with the narcissist). Men who kill their children and wife when they take steps to leave them are generally narcissists.
All that said, narcissists do deserve quite a bit of compassion and empathy (from a distance since they use the compassion and empathy of others as a means to manipulate) - they don't *choose* be narcissists and they can and do suffer.
There have been some studies about the neurobiology of narcissism but, like many psychiatric diagnoses, there's still a lot of work to be done -
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Re: narcissism and culture
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 8:58 AMSo, the question I have is- what turns people into narcissists? -
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Re: narcissism and culture
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 9:11 AMThat's still debated Canela, though there are a number of theories. One is a disruption of the development of healthy empathy and trust between child and primary caregiver during early childhood (the brain and emotional attachment and empathy never develops properly). It's generally not considered something that's congenital (meaning you're born with it) but rather a condition that is developmental in origin. Though I've started to wonder if it's not perhaps a combination of genes and environment/nurture. It's not just about mirror neurons and empathy because people with autism have difficulty recognizing emotions in others but aren't sociopathic in the way people with a narcissistic personality disorder are. Clinical narcissists can be consciously sadistic as well as simply oblivious to the feelings of others (though quite a bit of their cruel behavior can be due to simply only thinking about themselves and how things that really have nothing to do with them relate to them). -
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Re: narcissism and culture
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 9:26 AMDo you think, constant intimidation could lead to narcissism. My link (which I have not read completely) said something about the omnipotent fantasies of a child (brought on by stress and trauma, I would imagine...) -
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Re: narcissism and culture
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 10:20 AMWell - and I'm not talking from a professional perspective here and am just sharing my own thoughts on the matter - it doesn't seem to be a matter of constant intimidation but rather a blurring of appropriate boundaries by the primary caregiver (who may themselves be either narcissistic or have some form of borderline personality disorder). On all levels it seems to be about inappropriate boundaries (narcissists see the other person as an extension of them self and not as an individual with their own needs) and unfilled needs. It seems to be a form of arrested or perverted development but, who knows, there may be factors that haven't yet been discovered that contribute to it. Certainly the fact that the powers that be in our culture promote it as desirable and that so many people buy into that kind of unrealistic idealization also contributes to its prevalence on both individual and social levels.
Just to be clear, there's also healthy (non-disordered) narcissism. Our culture seems to conspire against developing healthy self love however, particularly in regards to women but it's also true for men (who have narcissistic behavior being idealized as being "strong" to live up - or rather down - to). -
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Re: narcissism and culture
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 10:00 AM"Certainly the fact that the powers that be in our culture promote it as desirable "
Would define "our culture", please, Fifi?
I, for one, am German, which, I have found over the last couple of years on tribe, is a rather different cultural background from most people here, actually, a lot more different than I expected it to be.
And the man I was talking about in relation to narcism was not from either of our cultures present here, so "our culture encourages..." did not apply in this case. Which does not mean, there is anything wrong with your statement, it is just that it did not clarify much in my personal case.
I am still interested though in narcism as a psychological problem, as this is presumably universally applicable. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: narcissism and culture
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 11:09 AMCanela - Good point and my apologies for the assumption. I live in Quebec, Canada so generalized ideas about even North American culture don't always apply here so I really should be more sensitive to this rather than making assumptions!
I was speaking mainly about mainstream North American and British culture but it also applies to many different cultures where the idealized man and male strength is promoted as being ruthless, individualistic, un-empathetic, object gathering and conquering.
And you're quite right that discussing an individual is a somewhat different matter. Of course, there are cultural components to mental health as well. That said, I'd think that a narcissistic personality disorder is possible across cultures - though how various cultures view or value it may be different. -
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Re: narcissism and culture
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 3:41 AMI am glad you understand, thanks, Fifi. (and actually, British and American culture are two very different things as well...)
I just dug this up in the second of your links above. It says, empathy failing to develop in a child comes from having caregivers lacking in empathy...there is also a genetic predisposition. I find the last sentence especially interesting.
copy:
"The leading theory about the development of NPD is that people get it the old-fashioned, Freudian way: Your parents give it to you. It starts very early when the attachment between infant and caregiver goes awry. In the first years attentive parents instinctively respond to the infant's moods. But cold, neglectful, or abusive parents don't provide the necessary comfort. Paradoxically, over-involved parents can be just as damaging because they convey anxiety and distress in the face of their child's unhappiness. As a result of neglect or smothering, these children don't learn the essential skills of being able to soothe themselves and regulate their feelings. The authors of The Narcissism Epidemic say the drift toward hovering, boosterish parents who want to gratify their child's every impulse will churn out more narcissistically disordered people.
Fortunately, not everyone with this kind of parenting ends up with NPD, which indicates there is a genetic susceptibility as well. Harvard's Ronningstam, in her book Identifying and Understanding the Narcissistic Personality, cites evidence that hypersensitive babies with a low tolerance for frustration and a strong aggressive drive may be particularly vulnerable.
Because the caregiver lacks an empathetic understanding of the baby, the baby's ability to become an empathetic person is impaired. Empathy, the ability to instinctively understand how another person is feeling, is a crucial human attribute, part of what makes us a social species. A chilling lack of empathy is a hallmark of NPD. Shame, that painful sense one has acted in an unacceptable way, is another necessary emotion that is also largely missing from the person with NPD. Since shame feels so terrible, it sounds liberating not to feel it. But psychologist Schore points out a feeling of shame signals that we need to reassess our behavior. "Shame is a moral emotion," he says. "It's without feeling shame that the most horrendous acts occur."
Those involved with someone with NPD frequently say they feel as if they are interacting with a kindergartener. In some way they are. According to a study in the journal Advances in Psychiatric Treatments, narcissists are stuck with the emotional development of 5-year-olds. It's about at age 5 that children start realizing their feelings are not just the result of other people or events but occur within themselves, and that they have control over them. But this understanding does not take place for the narcissist, who continues to see all internal states as having an external cause. Because of narcissists' inability to control their own emotions, they unconsciously experience the world as constantly threatening—thus the tendency toward inexplicable rages, the wild overreactions to the slightest perception of criticism."
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Re: narcissism and culture
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 3:57 AMMy friend's Jekyll and Hide act often consisted of drifting from being the seemingly most sensitive, understanding, emphatic person and an excellent listener to becoming a dominating, merciless, violence-prone person with a flaring temper.
The result was that I would be way more accomodating and obliging than I usually am, acting out this "you are right, darling, whatever you say" female role, just to avoid another major fight, while occasionally showering him with sarcasm and suspicions.
The only time I actually got him to apologise (hypocritically) was when I hung up the phone on him in the middle of one of his grandiose, insensitive, insulting performances. He called right back (both of which had never happened before) and said:"There was something wrong with the connection." I replied nonchalantly:"No, there was nothing wrong with the connection, I hung up on you!" "What?" he asked, as though he could not believe his ears. "I hung up on you!" I repeated. "Oh, come on, it was a joke, it was a joke!..." etc. he tried to appease me which did not work. This was at a time when he had given me enough time to recover from his control acts and restore my sense of healthy self esteem.
Now when someone tries to put me down in his culture, I tell them right off and tell them, they are just trying to win control over me by trying to intimidate me with these belittling remarks which are "totally inappropriate because there is absolutely nothing wrong with me". So far, every time I did this, it worked, and they admitted it, and actually respected me for catching them right in the act. (in which culture these things happen I will leave up to your imagination, obviously not the American one)
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Re: narcissism and culture
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 8:10 AMCanela - I grew up moving around and have lived in a number of places - including the UK and Australia - so I'm quite aware of cultural differences as well as how these cultures emerged out of Imperial British Culture (historically speaking). I really should have been clearer about what I meant and I apologize for being insensitive. There's also a difference between Canadian and American culture, as well as French and English Canadian cultures. And there are many different cultures within America - what I'm talking about is mainstream culture that has emerged from the US and is linked to advertising and marketing, there's a global aspect to it though it manifests differently in different national/ethnic cultures. That said, thanks for challenging my sloppiness and I look forward to your persepctive (both individual and cultural).
There is still some debate about NPD but the leading theory does make sense and can be really helpful in understand NPD and what dynamic one is dealing with (and why it's so impossible/difficult to deal with in a relationship). It sounds like you've got some pretty healthy self-love and self-respect going on (healthy narcissism :-) But, like we've discussed, it can be very difficult to deal with while one is in that dynamic because of the hot/cold and just, well, lack of empathy. You're describing a very common abuse dynamic that can occur both with people who have NPD and others that just don't know how to communicate because they don't have the skills. Sounds like the person you were dealing with had NPD and you dealt with it very well ultimately.
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Re: narcissism and culture
Sun, October 25, 2009 - 8:55 AMNot sure whether it was NPD or something else or whether his culture just tends to be like that. Yes, hot-cold. That's what it was. Weird, anyway.
And I wish I could be here more often, but my computer is still broken and will probably remain so for almost another week. Argh... -
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Re: narcissism and culture
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 7:16 AMCanela - Neither of us are in a position to actually diagnose someone :-) Certainly some cultures continue to view women as objects to be bought and sold - as objects without agency or desires of their own - not sure if that actually translates to NPD. Btw - all religions have factions that treat women this way - by they Islamic or Christian, so it's not just about one culture. It's about whether the individual is capable of empathy or is only concerned with protecting an aggrandized self image. Extreme orthodox cults in all religions seem to tend to be led by people with NPD and extremist and repressive arms of religions tend to justify oppressive behavior as being "god's will you bow down to me the big man" but, in my experience, there are kind and loving people who experience empathy from all cultures. NPD isn't really a cultural thing, it's an interpersonal thing. There's a very good argument to be made that mainstream American culture - which is influential around the world - actually promotes narcissism. -
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Re: narcissism and culture
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 3:45 AM"There's a very good argument to be made that mainstream American culture - which is influential around the world - actually promotes narcissism. "
I would not be surprised. CAn you explain that in a little more detail?
In the Japan, the strange thing is that in their ethics utter altruism is in demand, so much so that Japanese hardly get a chance to develop a sense of self. The outcome in modern day "democratic" Japan seems to be increasing narcism too. No sense of self- no sense of relating to others- people are trying to develop some sort of self with a childish ego and out comes perpetual narcism and showing off with the sole purpose of self gratificatrion. I see it in the bellydance scene all the time.
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