Why brains are wrinkled

topic posted Fri, August 7, 2009 - 10:39 PM by  Kaï
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(No, it's not because they've been sitting in the bathtub too long.)
posted by:
Kaï
Montreal
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  • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

    Thu, November 5, 2009 - 9:34 AM
    No, in fact it's the spinal fluid that's to blame.

    The consideration that folding is a way to add more surface into the same volume is quite trivial, so I wonder whether there is anything more to it than that. That local folding may be linked to the development of more neural tissue in that area, and that the order in which folds develop may differ from one individual to the next is not really surprising. What I wonder is if there are any additional benefits, i.e. shorter path lengths due to topology, or even folds whose surface merges in the course of ontogeny, thus bringing into contact formerly separate regions. If so, these folds would presumably be common to all individuals, since their topology and development would be critical. Similarly, I wonder whether the appearance of sub-folds on folds in certain areas has been correlated to specific developmental milestones - the general ability to detect sounds, which then might give way to processing of specific sounds, etc. or to abilities specific to humans (language and rythm?).
    • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

      Thu, November 5, 2009 - 9:10 PM
      "Similarly, I wonder whether the appearance of sub-folds on folds in certain areas has been correlated to specific developmental milestones - the general ability to detect sounds, which then might give way to processing of specific sounds, etc. or to abilities specific to humans (language and rythm?)."

      Hmm, yes, folding as a mechanism of system-level, emergent properties (I hate using that phrase now that it's been cheapened by frequent new age misappropriation along with "energy" and the like, but it's still a perfectly good concept.) Perhaps this is a basis of the formation of the various "modules" of cognitive function as has been much discussed in the modularity of mind literature.

      As you indicate, the commonalities as opposed to the differences in topology among individuals are of course the crucial factor in determining whether this is what is at work here. Thus the "averaged map" they're constructing should be helpful.
  • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

    Thu, November 5, 2009 - 9:56 AM
    No, it's what happens when your mind is in the gutter! ;-)
    • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

      Thu, November 5, 2009 - 10:01 AM
      the depth of the folds has to do with intelligence but I assume, we all know that, right? A friend of mine had a baby with...hemiglobalencephaly, or whatever that was called. You know, where one half of the brain is enlarged and not functioning properly? That half's folds were much more shallow.
      • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

        Thu, November 5, 2009 - 10:14 AM
        Canela - Don't assume, we're all here to share knowledge and we don't all know everything! Though there are some very informed and intelligent people in this tribe :-) I didn't know that, I'm interested in neuroanatomy but hardly any kind of expert! Do you have any links to more info on the correlation or connection between intelligence and depth of brain wrinkles?
        • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

          Thu, November 5, 2009 - 10:31 AM
          Links? It is the oldest thing, I learned that in high school in Germany when I was 13 or something. The deeper the grooves the more intelligent you are. You mean, they don't teach that in the US? Really old stuff. I am going to bed., so no links tonight but I am sure you can find stuff on it. Tryu an anatomy atlas or your old biology text book.
          • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

            Thu, November 5, 2009 - 10:50 AM
            I have heard that too, but what is the mechanism that relates intelligence to deeper folds? Or are they both correlated but not directly related, like whatever causes the folds causes higher intelligence as opposed to higher intelligence being cause by deeper folding?
            I remember "hearing" this too, but I also have heard about weight gain related to eating before sleeping which is another good example of correlation with no actual causation.
          • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

            Thu, November 5, 2009 - 10:58 AM
            Canela - Heh, I wouldn't count on what you learned in school about the brain when you were 13 still being accurate! A lot of that "really old stuff" has now been shown to be wrong (I'm not saying your assertion is, just that it would be nice for you to support your statements when asked, particularly if you're relying upon what you learned back in the day rather than any contemporary source). Just so you know, I'm not American and have never attended school in America (I've been to school in Australia, Canada and France, and grew up around research into nerve function and neurobiology, which is where my interest comes from). Kind of funny you're making the assumption I'm American after getting all out of sorts because I assumed you were American! Not that I'm particularly offended or anything, being a particular nationality doesn't make one inferior or superior.
            • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

              Thu, November 5, 2009 - 4:13 PM
              I suspect that there are still a few surprises left in the field, after all we are talking about one of the most complex systems that we've found in the natural world, and the inevitable oddness inherent in that system being the primary thing that we use to examine that system (ie. we're going to find a greater than normal attachment to any theories or teachings that we have about it, since they intrinsically involve our sense of self, and I'll stop there rather than feed this back into the cliche "Buddhist / Philosophical" vs "Empirical Science" loop, heheh).

              But definitely a cool article.
              • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                Thu, November 5, 2009 - 8:46 PM
                The subject of *brain function* and the sense of self is quite appropriate here, I think (speaking as a philosopher), and of course "Buddhist/philosophical" isn't necessarily something that's in opposition to empiricism (which isn't the whole of science anyway, just a linchpin of it), unless one's Buddhism and/or philosophy has been infected by the deadly New Age Crapola virus, one of the symptoms of which is an uninformed dismissal of science with buzz words like "scientism", which had a much more circumscribed sense, in the context of phenomenology, when it was coined by Husserl, long before it was hijacked by the woo crowd and the nuttier extremes of pomo thought. (I do like some postmodernists.)

                One thing that's intriguing to me is the bit about cortical development in the womb. I was six weeks premature, and an underweight twin to boot, and spent those six weeks in an incubator, recovering from pneumonia. (Which killed my twin.) From what the article says, you'd think I'd be cortically disadvantaged, but I have above-average intelligence. (I've always scored much higher on various tests than my two normal-term brothers.) I wonder if my unusual configuration, from being a mirror twin*, helped in some way to overcome this developmental handicap... Or it's possible that I made up the difference in development during or even *after* those six weeks. If so, it would seem that it's not so much being in the womb that's crucial in the final weeks as *not* having certain environmental disruptions during the equivalent time in the neonatal ICU. Maybe I was just lucky in that regard, compared to other preemies. (It was a German hospital, the Schwabinger Krankenhaus in Munich, staffed by US Army doctors at the time, and likely had some of the best facilities for its time.)

                Though the article doesn't really mention it, it's possible that "every* preemie eventually makes up the deficit, at least to some degree. But they seem to be implying that, nonetheless, there's something crucial about the final weeks of the nine months. Anyone know more about this?

                *As I've mentioned before, my Broca's area and Wernicke's area are on the opposite side (the right) from where they normally are in most people (tests and diagnoses at various Boston hospitals after I suffered a stroke-like hemiperetic migraine showed this), and like many left-handed people (and musicians, according to the wiki), I likely have a thicker corpus callosum. (Whether the c.c. has any relevance to the process of folding development is way beyond my expertise, but it's natural to wonder.)

                From the article:

                "Van Essen has created a cortical atlas, which compiles brain-imaging data to reveal variations in the topography of the cortex. Because even normal brains vary in the precise folding patterns, Van Essen’s atlas combines data from many individuals to create representations of what folding looks like in an average brain at various stages of development. And as the atlas evolves, it’s beginning to include images of what can happen when the surface of the cortex doesn’t develop as expected.

                For example, because so much of the folding takes place during the latter weeks of fetal development, premature infants arrive with much of their cortical development yet to be completed. And the folding patterns of preemies relegated to the neonatal intensive care unit don’t match those of their counterparts who spend their full nine months in the womb. New research from Van Essen’s lab shows that even when preemies reach their originally forecasted due dates, their brains are not as large or as folded as those of full-term newborns.

                “That means there’s something different in how those brains are organized and in the connections that have formed,’’ Grant said. Perhaps some extra environmental influence in the hospital is disrupting folding or preemies are missing out on some vital influence that their counterparts get in the uterus, though researchers haven’t yet narrowed down what these influences may be."
                • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                  Tue, November 10, 2009 - 9:29 AM
                  "*As I've mentioned before, my Broca's area and Wernicke's area are on the opposite side (the right) from where they normally are in most people (tests and diagnoses at various Boston hospitals after I suffered a stroke-like hemiperetic migraine showed this), and like many left-handed people (and musicians, according to the wiki), I likely have a thicker corpus callosum. (Whether the c.c. has any relevance to the process of folding development is way beyond my expertise, but it's natural to wonder.) "

                  Hmm...I can see folding happening *locally*, through the growth of neural tissue that "pushes" the neighboring tissue out of the way. I have a harder time imagining how the c.c. would contribute, unless rather indirectly, through promotion of neural activity, leading to additional neural growth, etc. Is that what you had in mind?

                  (checks a vague recollection here: www.answers.com/topic/agen...us-callosum )
                  I was looking to see if your hypothesis could be invaliidated, but no: absence of the c.c. may indeed lead to neurological disorder although this may or may not be linked to folding. It would perhaps be interesting to see whether the folding patterns and fractal dimension of individuals without c.c. are significantly different from the average.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                    Tue, November 10, 2009 - 1:31 PM
                    Yes, it could only be an indirect influence in its role as interhemispheric traffic facilitator and director.

                    But * are" there any functional human beings *without* c.c.'s? (Born without, as opposed to those in whom it has been cut, as a crude treatment for epilepsy, IIRC.) It seems intuitive that it's evolutionarily desirable if not absolutely essential, as a mechanism by which functions normally located in only one, but now damaged portion of one hemisphere can be recreated/rewired into the other - the brain's more complex version of our bilateral symmetry redundancy for certain organs. The ability to re-map functions from one hemisphere to the other, if indeed that does occur at all, might imply a role for the c.c. in stimulating folding along with other regenerative processes, if only at the early stage of life when folding occurs.

                    And it's not only that that seems evolutionarily desirable, but more importantly its role in "unity of self" - the integrated cognitive functioning of the person. Would someone who never had a c.c. be some sort of cognitive Siamese twin? (I'm trying not to think of Steve Martin and Lily Tomlin each having half of his body in "All of Me".)

                    When does the window of opportunity for folding close? Early infancy sometime? Since the article states that preemies studied had less folding by their intended due dates, if my folds, presumably reflecting or causing my level of intelligence, continued to develop after what would have been my due date, catching up sometime after, what sort of clock was I racing against, in effect? And thus, as I wondered, would a thicker c.c. have helped me catch up faster in some indirect way?

                    But the devil is in the details, of which I don't pretend to have a sufficient grasp.
                    • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                      Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:21 AM
                      "When does the window of opportunity for folding close? Early infancy sometime? Since the article states that preemies studied had less folding by their intended due dates, if my folds, presumably reflecting or causing my level of intelligence, continued to develop after what would have been my due date, catching up sometime after, what sort of clock was I racing against, in effect? And thus, as I wondered, would a thicker c.c. have helped me catch up faster in some indirect way?"

                      If what I learned in school is true, then that window would close at the time brain developpment is finished during pregnancy. One of the pages I read on this said:"You cannot add to your brainfolds by acquiring knowledge" which, in my opinion, does not necessarily mean that the old findings were faulty but rather that the degree of intelligence is genetic and inheritable. (something now considered very politically incorrect by some, esp. the left, but still possibly true)
                      • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                        Wed, November 11, 2009 - 10:07 AM
                        Thanks for the input Kai and Michael, I love learning new stuff :-)

                        Canela - Before I move on, I need to clarify something that may sound somewhat harsh and authoritarian but needs to be made clear before we can move on so this doesn't happen again. In future, please keep in mind that I'm the moderator of this tribe and that means you're not in charge. There IS an inequality of power and responsibility between us. That may seem unfair to you or annoying but that's just how it is so please stop trying to make personal digs, they're disruptive to the tribe. We've had the occasional troll member with an agenda - who got booted when they started playing power games or showing they had no real respect for the scientific method - but everyone else here conducts themselves as an adult and has a genuine interest in science and sharing what we know (and accept that we all have things to learn and gaps in our knowledge, or may be misinformed on a particular matter). I am taking into consideration that your manner of expressing yourself in English may be influenced by being German (that's not an insult, just an observation about how the German to English transition sounds sometimes, I have quite a few German friends) and that you may have mistaken this for an unmoderated tribe (and I may not have been clear enough about that when you asked to join). I'd also suggest that if you keep sensing something then there's a good chance those feelings and thoughts belong to you since you're very far off the mark in attributing them and other feelings to me (but that's your business unless you make it this tribe's business by acting out here). Just so you know, if you start acting like this again towards me or other members, you'll be called on it and potentially kicked out. I'm all good with members having a bad day once in a while - we're all human and fallible here - but you do need to understand that, as moderator, I do have the right and responsibility to call you on behavior that's disruptive to the tribe or that doesn't respect what the tribe's about.

                        PS. The previous post was the same as this but deleted due to "cat standing on space bar" formatting issues that meant it had miles of space underneath the text!
                        • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                          Thu, November 12, 2009 - 6:04 AM
                          >please stop trying to make personal digs, they're disruptive to the tribe

                          would you mind posting a quote to support the above assumption so that I get a chance to know what you may be talkijng about?
                          I read through this whole thread and everyone is discussing brainfolds in a productive way except you. If you read my posting above more carefully you would notice that Kai related his/her collected material, presented a question, I took up that question, related it to my knowledge of a previous state of research, came up with a hypothesis to support those findings and also criticised a recent (politically biased, i.m.o.) paradigm that was contradicting it.

                          Your reaction to this was to state yet another complaint about me and you still have not contributed anything to the actual topic at hand.
                          Yes, it is in your power as a moderator to dish out praise and punishment for your members as you see fit but I am starting to wonder if you would actually be able to recognise that "scientific method" that you so crave when it is staring you in the face.
                          So, if it gives you satisfaction to exercise your power over me as a moderator, I will leave you the little pleasure to delete me yourself if you so wish. if you actually want to discuss the present state of research regarding brain folds, that would of course be more constructive and interesting and potentially open up new avenues of thinking but it is up to you.
                          • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                            Thu, November 12, 2009 - 7:53 AM
                            Canela - "I am starting to wonder if you would actually be able to recognise that "scientific method" that you so crave when it is staring you in the face."
                            "So, if it gives you satisfaction to exercise your power over me as a moderator, I will leave you the little pleasure to delete me yourself if you so wish."

                            This is exactly the kind of passive aggressive dig I'm talking about and as moderator I don't need to apply "the scientific method" to this discussion (as if that's even possible to do in the context of the power struggle you very clearly want to engage in). I've received complaints/warnings from other members that you have behaved like this in other tribes so you're either totally unable to recognize when you're acting out in a trollish and passive aggressive way or trying to engage in a power struggle (and projecting your own emotions onto others) or you're consciously being an ass. If you don't stop doing this, I'll just boot you out of the tribe since it will be a clear indication you're not willing to respect boundaries and other members, and are in denial about your own behavior and that means you'll do this again. It really is that simple and I have no qualms doing so if you continue to act in this manner since it's making this tribe unpleasant for the other members (myself included). What would "give me satisfaction" is you acting like an adult, stopping the passive aggressive behavior and taking responsibility for your own feelings and intent instead of projecting onto others and learning how to be honest and share with the rest of us. That seems unlikely to happen if this is indeed a behavioral pattern for you, I'll just do what is necessary to keep this a friendly tribe for all the rest of us. Sorry, if you don't like this but I'm not interested in playing power games with you and will boot you out if you can't or won't stop this kind of behavior. It's your choice and I think I've been very clear about that. If it floats your boat to paint yourself as a victim, feel free to do so instead of just leaving if you don't like the tribe or how it's run.
                            • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                              Thu, November 12, 2009 - 8:14 AM
                              "I've received complaints/warnings from other members that you have behaved like this in other tribes so you're either totally unable to recognize when you're acting out in a trollish and passive"

                              Thanks for admitting this, this is exactly what I suspected when I saw you overreacting like that. I can tell you exactly who your mysterious "other members" are and what their motivation is, too.
                              As I said before, you are perfectly welcome to boot me if that seems to you a more vital issue than getting on with the discussion. And your "other members" would love to see that too.
                              So, as a moderator you don't need to apply "the scientific method" to this discussion, nobody can ask you to do your own research on the subject nor remind you to contribute to the discussion in any kind of constructive way, you are right. On the other hand, don't you think, your behaviour is a little hysterical?
                              I have no need to "engage in a power struggle" with you, I find all this rather tiresome, really. And if you care to know, this is not the way researchers deal with each other in real life,either, emotions get in the way of producing any kind of valid scientific results.
                              • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                                Thu, November 12, 2009 - 9:23 AM
                                Canela - "Thanks for admitting this, this is exactly what I suspected when I saw you overreacting like that."

                                I see you can't actually stop making passive aggressive digs and clearly this has caused issues for you before. Your paranoia about other tribe members is entirely unfounded since they contacted me after you started acting out in such a juvenile and passive aggressive way, and it was simply to warn me that you've acted like this in other tribes. There was no drama, just a friendly heads up from members who've proven themselves in this tribe. This tribe is about friendly discussion of brain related science, even when we disagree, and our conversations aren't "vital" and none of us are so pretentious we'd think they are. You seem to be suffering from grandiosity!

                                You have repeatedly shown you don't even understand what the scientific method is and you're doing it once again if you think it can be applied to a conversation. This isn't a lab, we aren't conducting research, this is a moderated tribe where people share things they're interested in. You also clearly don't know any researchers if you think they're all robots who aren't passionate about what they do or don't engage emotionally with other people (or their work for that matter). I'm sorry you're incapable of reining in your passive aggressiveness and entered this tribe with hostility towards other members. Quite honestly, that only makes it appear even more like you're a troll who seeks conflict since this appears to be an ongoing pattern of behavior for you. I'll give you one more chance to respond in an adult manner that acknowledges the boundaries and nature of this tribe but it's your last chance. If you feel the need to make further passive aggressive digs, project your own emotions and intent onto others, or otherwise contextualize yourself as being a victim of others (rather than simply reaping the consequences of your own behavior) on your way out, go for it. It makes me a bit sad that you're so uncomfortable with your own emotions you need to project them onto others and think emotions are somehow a bad thing because we actually often discuss emotion here and science isn't the frigid practice you seem to think it is!
            • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

              Thu, November 5, 2009 - 5:30 PM
              Ok, Fif, so I guess they do not teach in Canada either? I remember them talking about Einstein having really deep wrinkles in his brain when they checked it. And, as I said, damaged brains have shallow wrinkles and don't work. Whatever. I don't really care.
              • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                Thu, November 5, 2009 - 8:49 PM
                Canela - Why did you ask to join this tribe if you don't care about brains? Right now you just seem to want to be unpleasant rather than share in discussing brains in any real way. Remember, this tribe is about science and all you've been asked to do is back up an assertion you're making that may or may not be accurate. If you're not actually interested in the subject of this tribe, why are you here?
                • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                  Fri, November 6, 2009 - 6:23 PM
                  Why am I here? Because I liked the tribe description. I joined at a time when I was totally sick of bigoted rednecks on tribe trying to pester me into changing the way I talk into some politically correct, sugary drivel (if you don't mind me saying the way I see it). I thought, this was a tribe for intelligent people who think logically rather than along the lines of thinking what they are supposed to be thinking so as not to rock the boat. Yeah, I am more interested in how to put the brain to use rather than why the wrinkles are there. I believe, I already know why they are there, and I refuse to think of my education as outdated, and moreover, find it unnecessary to look up each and every thing on the internet and to believe all it says there3, but if you insist- here is one link:
                  uninews.unimelb.edu.au/view.php
                  And as far as you being a non-specialist about brains who "grew up among neurology" or whatever- I am a l;ittle disappointed, but I "grew up among" medical stuff too, but I would not think of calling myself a geek in that field for that. Yeah, different culture again I guess. And yes, I am still grumpy. ; )
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                    Fri, November 6, 2009 - 6:42 PM
                    ...and by the way, why do you refuse to believe me unless I give you a link on the web? You could have just looked it up yourself and try to proove that what I said is outdated. (just a suggestion on how to do a little research rather than being proud of where you grew up. yeah, I am a bit bitchy in the mornings but this was my reaction when I saw what you wrote)
                    • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                      Fri, November 6, 2009 - 11:11 PM
                      I rather think that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim or reference, not on the one wondering what the claim's basis or reference's source is.

                      When I write a paper, I'm required to provide citations for quotes, paraphrases. etc. I don't tell my professor to go research where I got it from. It's a lot less formal here, but the same general idea applies, especially when someone asks from general curiosity. (And skepticism. The two often go hand in hand.)

                      The other day my ethics prof emphasized that citations aren't just for preventing plagiarism, but to help other people who might genuinely be interested in whatever you're writing about to be able to go follow a bibliographic trail to learn more about it. It's not just a challenge to your integrity and honesty.

                      I came to philosophy partly because I followed such a trail in various people's books, from books about software design (I was working for a web startup back in the mid-90s and was dissatisfied with the state of design and the apparently vast cognitive gulf between the people who make software and web pages, on the one hand, and the people who use them, on the other) to books about design in general, and books about architecture, and then about cog sci and linguistics, etc.

                      Being able to see where all these various authors got their ideas gave me something of a road map.

                      At one point almost seven years ago, I had just read a 1926 book (which had last been taken out of the library in 1973) by Owen Barfield, a Brit who wrote on linguistics and philosophy of mind, whose work I had seen cited in a book by Stephen Talbott (The Future Does Not Compute - Transcending the Machines in Our Midst), in which he referred to the role of metaphor, which happens to be George Lakoff's big insight in cognitive linguistics.

                      So I had the presumption to look up Professor Lakoff's email address at UC Berkeley and ask him about the passage that intrigued me, particularly in reference to his book with Mark Johnson (Philosophy in the Flesh: The Embodied MInd and Its Challenge to Western Thought.) I provided the relevant quotation from Barfield's book, with page #'s, publisher, etc.

                      He graciously replied, with a response that helped prevent me from continuing to entertain a misunderstanding and set me back on track:

                      "We read that passage after our book came out. There are a couple of reasons we don't cite it. First, it perpetuates the false view that metaphors are in words, not thought - though he waffles on that. Second, there are no examples given, e.g., no sentences, no examination of regularities and their nature, etc.

                      A number of people have had insights like that, but never went much further.

                      George"

                      (I'll provide the rather long Barfield passage I quoted to Lakoff if anyone's interested, but this post is already getting long....)

                      The point is that I would never have gotten to that point of being able to ask a reasonable question of a knowledgeable expert in a field and get an invaluable response, if not for the clear trail of citations I'd followed, and I reflected that in following the convention of providing a clear citation in my email to Professor Lakoff, so as to not waste his time any more than I might already be.

                      And the reason I can give you this example, with specific authors and titles, and Lakoff's actual response to me, is that I've kept my email records and other records as well, and thus was able to find my references among thousands of documents on my Mac with a Sherlock search taking a few milliseconds.

                      Beats having a vague recollection and just telling someone to go google it.
                      • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                        Sat, November 7, 2009 - 12:11 AM
                        Kai, I do not have a "vague recollection", I remember exactly what I leaqrned and I considered that common knowledge, and felt liek being asked to provide a link for saying the earth is round. And, in case you overlooked that, I said, I was going to bed, it was bloody 3am over here.
                        I am perfectly aware of the fact that a thesis should be backed up by references. Not because I am some enthousiastic university student, and terribly proud of that but because I teach university. (lit. dept) Nobody calls me a "geek" for that here. On the other hand, the second rule is that you do not need to back up EVERYTHING you say, since some of it can be considered common knowledge and stating stuff that supposedly everyone knows is not the same as "claiming" something. . That is why I asked whether you had not learned these things in school.
                        Now can we stop argueing about this and you simply go and have a look at all those links you find when googling "brain folds" if you are not comfortable with pulling out some real books? If you find anything that contradicts what I said, let me know.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                    Sat, November 7, 2009 - 6:49 AM
                    Canela - "I learned it in high school" just doesn't cut it for some very obvious reasons and it's hardly radically thinking outside the box. This is a science and not a "clinging to beliefs" tribe. You're the one who keeps making a big deal of where someone lives or went to school. I don't mind you being grumpy or outspoken but you're now simply being an ass and rude to me and others. You're welcome here but not if you're going to act like you're still in high school! Stop trying to pick fights and acting like being asked to support something you say is some huge burden on you in a science tribe. If you're unable to and it is an unsupportable belief, just say so and we'll move on. If you're having a bad time in your life somehow or having a bad day, be honest about it here rather than dumping it here. This thread IS about brain wrinkles and neuroanatomy so if you're not interested in brain wrinkles and neuroanatomy then just don't participate in the thread. This tribe is first and foremost a science tribe that focuses on things related to the brain, we're pretty casual but it's not a free for all and it's intended to be a friendly kind of tribe. (If your main interest is in participating in a straight talking kind of tribe, I recommend you check out Extreme Honesty. If you're looking for a brain science tribe that's a bit looser and run differently, try Cognitive Science. Though you're welcome to stay here if you respect the parameters of this tribe or to join those and stay here to join in when you're actually interested in a thread topic.)
                    • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                      Sat, November 7, 2009 - 7:50 AM
                      Did you notice that I did give you a link already? Can we just talk about what it says there, and rather that engaging in argument over how one should talk, discuss the issue at hand? Have you found anything that proves me wrong? It is not a belief that I stated. Saying that I learned that in high school means that it can be regarded as some rather basic information and if you think, that the state of research on brain folds is a different one now why don't don't you find something to support that idea? You keep fighting me instead of finding out and I do not see the point of that.
                      • Re: Why brains are wrinkled

                        Sat, November 7, 2009 - 8:40 AM
                        Thanks for the link that says there MAY be a correlation - this clearly was only a "maybe" in 2004. My point was never to "prove you wrong" nor did I ever say you were wrong, I merely asked you to provide more information and you proceeded to be rude and claim that what you learned in high school biology couldn't be incorrect or outdated information. Once again, please stop trying to be argumentative where there's no actual argument and simply respect the basic premise of this tribe. This is a friendly (and moderated) tribe, if you're here to pick fights or are just in a bad mood and looking for a fight, please take it somewhere else. Being grumpy or cynical is fine, just being an ass to people and picking fights where there are none, isn't.

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