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I am very interested in Exu and Pomba Gira. I have only read both books called "Macumba", a great one by Serge Bramley and that other not very good one by some guy whose name I forget. I assume you need to be initiated in order to have anything to do with Exu and Pomba Gira, but how does that work?
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Re: Exu, Pomba Gira, and Quimbanda
Thu, January 3, 2008 - 12:58 PMDamien
Candomble does not work with Pomba Gira or Exu as it is viewed in Umbanda.. IMO The book by Bramly is a very sensationalist book which does not reflect in any ways, Umbanda or Candomble.
I cannot help sorry -
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Re: Exu, Pomba Gira, and Quimbanda
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 5:06 PMThanks- so maybe you can clear this up for me...
Are you saying that Candomble does not work with Exu? At all? If so, then how?
Are Macumba and Candomble radically different? If so, then how?
By your wording below, it sounds like you are saying that Candomble and Umbanda are actually the same, is that right? -
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Re: Exu, Pomba Gira, and Quimbanda
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 9:34 PMIt is my understanding that Candomble works with Exu but not Pomba Gira.
I have heard that Macumba is different than Candomble but it seems to vary with who I talk to so I am sure Gamo would have a better understanding of this. Candomble and Umbanda are not the same thing (see the post " umbanda Vs candomble") -
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Re: Exu, Pomba Gira, and Quimbanda
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 11:27 AMHI Andy and Damien,
Although the name EXU exits in both practices and Umbanda they are both different 'persons'.
Exu as well as Pomba Gira in Umbanda are what u call , spirits, and not Orixas. They were humans (according to the Laws of Umbanda) and have kept some of their human characteristics even while being Exus, but remained in between worlds. They must work in order to attain a level of spirituality hight enough to quit that level and go to the next.They can talk to you ,act for you, when asked and given presents when incorporated in a medium body.
The same caracters in Macumba (and its origins are pretty well described in Rogers Bastide Work (Les religions Afro bresiliennes)) do not have the "moral rightness".. they can easily slide on the "wrong" side of life when properly asked.. But ... haha everything has a price.. They also have a touch of Bantu (angola ) cults in them..
Now in between the 2 descriptions above lays a wide spectrum of nuances going to left to right or right to left if allowiing this analogy...
Exu in Candomble is really diiferent.. He is the primordial breath and the moving energy of the universe, he also protects our vitality , sexuality and our health, he is the messenger of all orixas.. (See the incredible poetry of Juana Elbein Dos Santos in her book, "les nagos et la mort" or Jean Ziegler book about Orixas (never can remember hte title sorry)
Totally abstract if you ask my opinion and nothing to do with anything else in many cosmogonies (to the best of my knowlegede of course)..
Peiire Verger in his book Orixas presents a Face of Exu in Yoruba country that I have hardly seen in Brazil. But my experience does not count since at that time i did not frequent that many Iles except my own.
Maybe Raquel and Maria have more to say in order ot feed the thead info...
Love to all
Gamo de Xango -
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Re: Exu, Pomba Gira, and Quimbanda
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 12:15 PMThank you Gamo,
It sounds like Macumba is much closer to Umbanda in the sense that they work with spirits whereas Candomble works with Orixas. Is this correct ? Do practitioners of Macumba differentiate between "spirits" and "Orixas" ? I am just curious whether they make that distinction or if it is a conclusion drawn from the difference in they way they practice their beliefs? I am curious because I have heard many different views on Macumba such as "it is the dark side of Candomble" or " It is a general term to refer to all Afro-Brazilian based religons" or as a synonym with Umbanda.
Any insight you have is much appreciated!
Andy
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Re: Exu, Pomba Gira, and Quimbanda
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 1:47 PMyes Macumba is "closer" to Umbanda and Angolan candomble cults than to Candomble Ketu or Jeje or Efon. The followers are aware of the difference between Orixas and Exus yes... They understand the difference of their nature because the offerings and demansd would not be directed in a similar manner.. The rituals given to Orixas are not the same at all, Orixas take care of the head wereas Exus are used for other purposes.
Macumba is also a popular word used sometimes by the outsiders who do not have a good opinion of Candomble or Umbanda pratitioners. All the above cults still suffer from a lot of discrimination from some Brazilians. This is an african based religion and it has been persecuted a lot in the past and has been a place where all outsiders would have taken refuge when needed (capoeristas fugitives of all sorts). The closest association that I am thinking of is the possible analogy that could be drawn using the meeting of Bois Caiman where supoosively the Vaudou priests started the revolt to kick the French out of Haiti with Toussaint L'OUverture..
However we do call ourselves sometimes Macumbeiros as in a joke... Macumba emcompasses a lot of significations and different pratices...
Hopes thsi helps...
Gamo -
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Re: Exu, Pomba Gira, and Quimbanda
Fri, January 11, 2008 - 10:01 AMYes that clears up quite a lot. From a musical stand point I have also noticed that Macumba ( or at least the little I have been exposed to) seems to use the same rhythm for most of their songs regardless of who it is for. Unlike Candomble which has many different rhythms for the Orixas. -
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Re: Exu, Pomba Gira, and Quimbanda
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 12:41 AMI also am a musician.
In my house we have 21 toques consecrated for ritual use. 90% of the time only 7 or 8 of these are used. these most common are used also on the left.
This leads me to ask, Why the interest in the baras, (exus/pomba giras) and no other entities? While they are indispensable in path opening and protection, I believe (my bias) that work with them ought to ultimately facilitate encounter with light (for them and us).
I have drawn my own analogy (not from my teachers) that the entities of the left are akin to the protector demons that you see outside Buddhist temples.
It is probably important to separate the syncretic Satan crap from the African concept of Elegbara and honor him as the intermediary between humans and Orixas. That said, there are low spirits that dwell in the muck, and some of them are up to no good.
Thanks to everyone on the tribe for indulging discussion that is not "purely" Candomble.
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Re: Exu, Pomba Gira, and Quimbanda
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 6:49 AMmotumba gamo,
yes, but the word "macumba" is also used by "insiders" both inside candomble (de ketu) AND umbanda..."voce e muito macumbeiro" "your're such a macumbeiro!" its used in a friendly way to joke and tease...and it is used by both groups to take about any kind of "work" that is manipulating energies, especially ebos, sacudimentos etc etc etc. "fizemos aquela macumba, dai agora vai dar certo" "we did that macumba, so now its going to work out"
it seems to have been reclaimed from its negative connotations amongst these groups, kinda like in the gay community you would call someone a big ole "fag" or "dyke" if your on the inside and seen as sympathetic, using these words is not pejorative...
bjsss!
Tara Bianca -
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Re: Exu, Pomba Gira, and Quimbanda
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 6:50 AMoh sorry Gamo! I didn't see that you had already mentioned its use in jokes....
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