Ase Tony,

Perhaps it does not sound good in English...in Portuguese it does: Vida e Morte (should have been life and death?)-different dimensions...

Thanks for your input on your tradition

Ase,
Maria d'Osala

> Orisa and Egun (to use the currently applicable terminology) are mutually exclusive in relation to any one particular medium.
> I do not advocate, as some do, trying to work with muerto y santo at the same time.

the "as some do" is what confuses me a bit, bc i seen quite a few people do both, but not at the same time.

> What I do not agree with is the blunt labelling of Egun as 'death' and Orisa as 'life'.

> They may appear dead to us, but I assure you that in general, we appear very much dead (and stupid..) to them,
> as they are, technically, more evolved than us, the 'living'.

thanks (even do im not Egun yet : )

> The Bakongo believe that everything, albeit indirectly, comes from God, (yes, even what we perceive to be 'bad')

they are not alone in that

Axe O!

Ase Atabaque, Ozai,

This was Atabaque's post in the other thread, which I am answering:

"Thanks everyone!
My portuguese is still pretty shaky, but I'm working on it.
Yes, we are now well off the subject of Ori, but I wanted to respond to some things in previous posts. Namely that Umbanda was formed by one man a the beginning of last century, and comments about "traditional Umbanda".
Umbanda is a very new religion and in a mere hundred years has probably not stably evolved into a static form so what is really traditional?
Of the four influences of Umbanda (African [especially Yoruban], Catholic, Amerindian [especially Tupi], and Kardecist) I am perhaps most interested in the intersection of the African and indigenous Brazilian. For centuries before Kardec came on the scene these cultures informed each other. I am fascinated about how two nature based spiritual traditions may have mingled before any literate anthopologists thought to care, and what the legacy of that interaction is in contemporary Umbanda practice. "

Trying to recuperate a lost posting from yesterday. BTW, To know Portuguese is essential for an Umbandista, since it is the language used...so work on it :-)

Since I can’t go on for hours on Brazilian ethno-history, I rather ask you some questions and just add some comments.

1) Why do you say that Tupi influenced Umbanda?

Tupi in not an indigenous group, but a linguistic root of numerous indigenous ethnies. When Umbanda becomes known as such (1908-Rio de Janeiro), our indigeneous coastal tribes had been almost totally killed in earlier wars and by trying to enslave them in the earlier centuries. By 1574 most natives of that area were massacrated, and the survivors of the massacre went north in the direction of Para and Maranhão.
Umbanda was an urban phenomena and practice, and Rio, which was then the capital of Brazil, a cosmopolitan city which since 1807 when it became the capital of the Portuguese Empire (since the Portuguese king and court moved there in 1807). The Brazilian Empire (and Independence in 1822) was the cause of a nationalism which CREATED an image of the Tupi Indian as a romantic figure (not existing one). It was the beginning of a literary movement called the “romantismo indio”. Umbanda inherits this passion for the “romantic” figure of its time- the Indian, the Caboclo becomes its symbol, but there is no basis of Ameridian influences in Umbanda. If you are interested in practices that share both Ameridian as African rituals, you will have to go to North and northeast, and study Catimbó, Toré, Terecô, Codó, Jurema, Pajelança, encantados do Maranhão, etc.

So which indigenous group was in the 1600/1700/1800s in Rio? It was an early genocide (1574)and the few who survived went inland (interior of Brazil) by the time of the French invasion. Because of the lack of them (indigenous groups, most protected by jesuit missionairies) is that blacks were brought from Africa as slaves in large numbers afterwards.

2) Yoruba influence from where?

Umbanda has its African roots in the so called Quimbanda , Macumba of Rio, different Bantu practices. Yorubas were the last group enslaved in the Americas (reason of the survival of their practices), mainly after the fall of the Oyo Empire. It is a myth (preserved by Cubans, Brazilians) that Yoruba-derived traditions have flourished for 400 + hundred yrs in the Americas. When Zelio started Umbanda, he was a Kardecist, fluent in French and not until later the Candomble outside aspects (clothes, beads, drums) were added. But no Yoruba rituals. Umbanda has typical Bantu origin: cult of land ancestors, pontos riscados (Veve in English?), usage of Portuguese instead of a ritual language, etc
Actually in Luanda (Angola) there is a religion called Umbanda, very similar to ours. Words like curimba, curimbeiro (drummer), pemba, cambono are words used by Umbanda. They are not of Yoruba origin. We have to remember too that the Bantus was the largest group enslaved in all Americas and they came already christianized by the Portuguese who conquered them in the 1400’s. Rio was the largest port for Bantu slaves, before the Bahians started to do the “trade” themselves from the West Africa, bringing Ewe/Fon (Vodouns) and later Yorubas. Still Candomble de Angola has similarities and links with Umbanda.


Another thing, anthropologists came late in the scene, but there are other ways to study ethno-history. Missionaries, travelers, physicians and others wrote extensivally about cultural practices in these areas. The first book on Rio’s religions was published in the 1800’s in Paris: “Religiões do Rio” by João do Rio.

My main question on Orixas in Umbanda would be:

-Why then the great majority of Candomble initiates come from Umbanda (80% + nowdays), if Umbanda has Orisas?? It would not make sense...


Here are some links and sites on Umbanda:
www.midiaindependente.org/es/bl....shtml

www.ceismael.com.br/tema/tema005.htm

www.povodesanto.com.br/catimb...58.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbanda

www.linkscampeoes.com.br/canti....shtml

Ase,

Maria d’Osala