Ganesh ( Ganapati ) the Hindu Buddhist Deity : practices references and transmission

topic posted Fri, July 11, 2008 - 12:19 PM by  K
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Ganesh ( Ganapati ) the Hindu Buddhist Deity : practices references and transmission

Keywords : Ganapati / Ganesh the Elephant Headed God of Classical India, Mantra and Praise of Ganapati, Deity yoga, Tantric empowerment, Overlapping Hindu / Buddhist mantra culture, Vedacarya Thomas Ashley-Farrand, Sakya Lineage and Sakya Monastery, Seattle Washington.

“To those for whom these village fires still have meaning:
Oh, may your own most beautiful Animal of Light come safely to you!”
from the Last Whole Earth Catalog

On 13 July in Seattle Washington a Ganapati empowerment will be offered at Sakya Monastery of Tibetan Buddhism. The guru bestowing this empowerment is the tantric master of Sakya Monastery, His Holiness Jigdal Dagchen Sakya Rinbochay. See www.sakya.org for more information.

For this reason it is timely and appropriate to provide some basic teaching and perspective on Ganapati, and in particular an esoteric Hindu Ganapati mantra and also a Sanskrit Buddhist praise of Ganapati. Many diverse teachings on this deity in Hindu form are available on the internet ( under both Ganapati and Ganesh ).

An excellent introductory summary for Ganapati / Ganesh is available online at
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha

The Buddhist Ganapati is also referenced in the Tibetan Buddhist traditions of the Nyingma ( e.g. Longchen Nyingtik ) and Gelugpa lineages ( see practice texts for www.fpmt.org ). There is also Buddhist practice of Ganapati in the esoteric Buddhist Japanese tradition known as Shingon, which came East via China and not Tibet.

Briefly, Ganapati means Lord of the Troop, and Ganesh basically means Elephant Headed One. Ganapati is known by the title “Remover of Obstacles” or “Lord of Obstacles”. He carries or represents the enormous power of the Elephant. He is often accompanied by two female consorts Riddhi and Siddhi ( Magical Accomplishment and Spiritual Accomplishment ).

Ganapati is very prominent and even central in Hindu practice and is often evoked at the beginning of important engagements or projects, such as making a journey or starting employment, or beginning a meditation practice session. I have seen dance evocation of Ganapati at the beginning of a Hindu temple dance concert. Ganapati is one of the main practices of Hindu business people for success in their commercial ventures.

Ganapati is strongly associated with the “national spirit” or Mother India as well as her earliest roots. In the distant past elephants were used throughout India to clear land for agriculture, and also as war elephants. More recently, public Hindu celebrations were banned by the occupying British and the outlawed Ganapati ceremonies were brought forth, successfully, to rally India against foreign rule.

It is said that the long “History of India” was transcribed by the deity Ganapati as given by Rishi Visvamitra. Many of the key texts of Sanatana Dharma ( Hinduism ) were written down by Ganapati. So, this practice is a primary connection to Vedic Culture. Due to this, Ganapati is also practiced by students to help with their secular school exams.

Ganapati has a very ambivalent status in Buddhist tantra, the esoteric form of Buddhist meditation which relies on yoga, deity recitations and mystic practices in general. On the one hand, Ganapati is often considered unfriendly towards Buddhist practitioners in general, and propitiated or banished or subjugated so as to not cause problems. Thus, a subjugated Ganapati serves as the throne for the deity Mahakala in his Six Armed form. This reflects the fact that some but not all Hindu practice / culture affirms Buddhist teachings.

On the other hand, there are specifically Buddhist practices for Ganapati, as for other Hindu deities such as Shiva, Sarasvati and so forth. The Sakya lineage carries Buddhist deity yogas for the Hindu deities Uma Devi / Parvati and Garuda, as well as Ganapati. ( In Southern Buddhism, such as in Sri Lanka Theravada monasteries, it is common to propitiate the Hindu deity Visnu for outer or worldly benefits. )

More broadly, many Buddhist schools share with the Sanatana Dharma ( i.e. Hindu practice and culture ) a significant focus on Ayurveda, or spiritual medicine. The Buddhist deity Bhaisajyaguru, or Medicine Buddha, is a deity of Buddhist spiritual medicine and Ayurveda in both Hindu and Buddhist forms is more or less identical in practice, not just similar.

In the classical Sakya tradition, this Twelve Arm Ganapati is actually an emanation of Avalokitesvara, the beloved and universal Buddhist deity of liberating compassion. Thus, it is reasonable to view this empowerment as being a definite connection to Avalokitesvara and the general practices of Avalokitesvara.

It is also very important to note that with this ( or any ) tantric Buddhist empowerment comes the general set of universal Buddhist vows, such as the Ten Precepts ( rejection of harmfulness, theft, dishonesty, ill-will and so forth ), and the Bodhisattva vows. The Bodhisattva vows focus on active humanitarian service in the most broad and deep and long term ways, starting with rejection of limiting ideas such as racism, sexism, tribalism, and all cultural divisiveness.

For some basic teachings on Buddhist theory and practice, see the following at Asian Classics:
www.asianclassics.org/researc...ion.html

The Principal Teachings of Buddhism
Buddhist Refuge
The Vows of the Bodhisattva

For an excellent general introduction to Buddhist practice, with a focus on Buddhist tantra, see the following book by Kalu Rinpoche:
The Dharma: That Illuminates All Beings Like the Light of the Sun and the Moon, State University of New York Press, 1986, ISBN 0-88706-157-5

www.amazon.com/Dharma-Ill.../0887061575

This book is short, direct, accessible, classical and effective. It should be. It was transcribed as spoken directly to westerners by one of the greatest Buddhist masters of the last century.

To take the tantric Buddhist empowerment of Ganapati or any other is to take Mahayana Buddhist vows, as well as to become authorized to do magical kinds of practice, such as mantra recitation to develop the power of the deity. The point is that in this case, the Hindu/ Buddhist deity Ganapati is practiced within a classical Buddhist context, not otherwise. Thus the above mentioned Buddhist references are of central importance in this transmission and practice.

As a brilliant red deity aspect, Twelve Armed Ganapati is not only a remover of obstacles and disharmonious circumstances, but also a magnetizing deity, i.e. a deity that “warms up” social situations, and develops strongly positive interpersonal engagement.

On a yogic level, this deity ( in Buddhist deity yoga ) develops strength and power at the level of the navel point of the psychic energy body ( svadhisthana cakra ), although I cannot say more without transgressing tantric vows of secrecy. Note that the Hindu Ganapati is girded by snakes, representing kundalini energy, and is similarly associated with the energy at the base of the spinal column. All tantric transmissions are private, and their contents not to be discussed following initiation.

This is one of many specifically obstacle-removing diety yogas in Buddhist tantra. There are many others, but this one is definitely recommended for those who have a more Hindu-oriented background in culture and/ or personal karma. And as noted earlier, it is a connection to Avalokitesvara practice specifically, and to the outer Mahayana practices in general.

This can also be viewed ( speaking very unofficially ) as a connection to Hindu transmissions. ) For this reason I will now provide a specifically Hindu mantra for Ganapati, which has been confirmed. It is quite reasonable to say that on obtaining a Twelve Arm Ganapati empowerment, one may practice the following Hindu mantra as well.

Maha Ganapati Mantra
"Aum shrim hrim klim glaum gam
ganapataye vara varada sarva
janamme vashamanaya svaha"

Vedacarya Thomas Ashley-Farrand, from whom I have Laxmi transmission, has many introductory and also detailed teachings on Hindu mantra practice. See his website at
www.sanskritmantra.com/

The following is not an official representation, but I do have the Sakya lineage Ganapati transmission some twenty years back from HE Luding Khen Rinbochay. This Sakya initiation is for a Twelve Arm Red Ganapati, equivalent in many respects to the Hindu deity Ganesh or Ganapati. Many diverse teachings on this deity in Hindu form are available on the internet ( under both Ganapati and Ganesh ). The Buddhist Ganapati is also referenced in the Tibetan Buddhist traditions of the Nyingma and Gelugpa lineages.


From www.sakya.org :

07/13/2008
GANAPATI INITIATION
Offered by H. H. Jigdal Dagchen Sakya
Sunday, July 13
Time: 10:00 am
Location: Shrine Room
Suggested Donation: $30 Public, $25 Members
Translator: Dr. Jeff Schoening
Ganapati made the commitment to help all beings to uphold the 3 trainings—moral behavior, meditation, wisdom— and, in particular, to provide the necessary materials and provisions for practitioners.
He protects one from obstacles at the beginning of any enterprise and also helps to increase wealth and power for the benefit of the Dharma.
His Holiness Jigdal Dagchen Sakya, head lama of Sakya Monastery, was born in Tibet in 1929. He continues the great Sakya lineage which began with Khon Konchok Gyalpo (1034—1102). He received teachings of the unbroken Khon lineage, the Sakya Vajrakilaya, the Hevajra and the complete Lamdre Tsogshe, from his father, H.H. Trichen Ngawang Thutop Wangchul, the last Sakya throne holder in Tibet. He also studied with many other great Buddhist teachers, including Dzongsar Khyentse Chökyi and Dingo Khyentse Robsal Dawa.
In 1960, H.H. J.D. Sakya was invited to work on a University of Washington research project on Tibetan civilization which was sponsored by the Rockefeller Foundation. At the request of students, he co-founded with H.E. Dezhung Rinpoche Sakya Tegchen Choling, a center for the study of Tibetan Buddhism and culture. In 1984, the center became the Sakya Monastery of Tibetan Buddhism.



The following is copyrighted material from The Digital Sanskrit Buddhist Canon, at
www.uwest.edu/sanskritcanon/index.html
specifically
www.uwest.edu/sanskritcan...totra30.html

The source text is “ Source: Pandey, Janardan Shastri ed. Bauddha strotra Samgrah. Varanasi : Motilal Banarsidass, 1994”.

This is provided as a necessary and specific demonstration that classical Indian Buddhist culture incorporated Ganapati deity yoga as a tantric practice, and not for other purposes.
Ganesastotram

kharvam sthulataram gajendravadanam lambodaram sundaram
vidhnesam madhugandhalubdhamadhupavyalolagandasthalam|
dantodghatavidaritahitajanam sindurasobhakaram
vande sailasutasutam ganapatim siddhipradam kamadam|| 1||

herambah paramo devah karyasiddhividhayakah|
saibhagyarupasampannam dehi me sukhasampadam|| 2||

ekadantam mahakayam lambodaram gajananam|
sarvasiddhipradataram gangaputram namamyaham|| 3||

vande tam gananathamaryamanagham daridrayadavanalam
sundaadandavidhuyamanasamalam samsarasindhostarim|
yam natva surakoyayah prabhuvaram siddhim labhante param
sindurarunavigraham paripataddanambudharahrtam|| 4||

uccairbrahmandakhandadvitayasahacaram kumbhayugmam dadhanah
presannagaripaksapratibhatavikatasrotratalabhiramah |
devah sambhorapatyam bhujagapatitanusparddhivardhisnuhasta-
strailokyascaryamurtirjayati trijagatamisvarah kuñjarasyah|| 5||

ganapatisca herambo vidhnarajo vinayakah |
deviputro mahateja mahabalaparakramah || 6||

mahodaro mahakayascaikadanto gajananah|
svetavastro mahadiptastrinetro gananayakah || 7||

aksamalam ca dantam ca grhnan vai daksine kare|
parasum modakapatram ca vamahaste vidharayan|| 8||

nanapusparato devo nanagandhanulepanah |
nagayajñopavitango nanavidhnavinasanah || 9||

devasuramanusyanam siddhagandharvavanditam|
trailokyavidhnahartaramakhvarudham namamyaham|| 10||

sumukhascaikadantasca kapilo gajakarnakah |
lambodarasca vikato vidhnarajo vinayakah || 11||

dhumraketurganadhyakso bhalacandro gajananah |
vakratundah surpakarno herambah skandapurvajah || 12||

sodasaitani namani yah pathecchunuyadapi|
vidyarambhe vivahe ca pravese nirgame tatha|| 13||

samgrame samkate caiva vidhnastasya na jayate|
vidhnavallikutharaya ganadhipataye namah || 14||

sriganesastotram samaptam|




Sarva mangalam! Siddhi rastu!

In partial fulfillment of vajrayana teaching responsibilities,

KT
posted by:
K
offline K
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  • K
    K
    offline 140

    Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ) : More Sakya empowerments, incl. Sakya Ganapati, this December in Vancouver BC

    Keywords : tantric Buddhist empowerment, major empowerment cycle in highest yoga tantra and mahamudra, Sakya lineage of Tibetan Buddhism, Sakya Tsechen Thubten Ling and Her Eminence Jetsun Kusho.


    OM SVASTI.

    This December 2008 a major tantric empowerment cycle of the New School / Mahamudra lineage of vajrayana will be given in Vancouver British Columbia. These are the "Thirteen Golden Dharmas of Sakya", a comprehensive set of transmissions central to the Sakya School of Tibetan Buddhism, to be bestowed by Her Eminence Jetsun Kusho at Sakya Tsechen Thubten Ling, her tantric practice center.

    "Her Eminence Jetsun Chimey Luding, or HE Jetsun Kusho, is a leading female teacher of tibetan buddhism living in the West. Jetsunma is one of three women in the history of Tibet to have given the Lamdre ("path and its fruition") teachings, the special system of contemplative and meditative practice of the Sakya order. Thus, she is a thoroughly trained lineage holder.
    HE Jetsun Chimey Luding is the Resident Spiritual Director of the Sakya Tsechen Thubten Ling Center in Vancouver, Canada."

    Translation from Tibetan will be by the eminent translator and Sakya scholar Jay Goldberg.

    Dates:
    December 20th through December 26th 2008
    ( see schedule below ).

    Location:
    Sakya Tsechen Thubten Ling (STTL)
    9471 Beckwith Road
    Richmond, BC Canada V6X 1V8

    Contacts and references:
    Tel: 604-275-5506
    email: sakyatsechenthubtenling@shaw.ca
    www.sakya.thinkbig.ca/

    Discussion:
    Her Eminence is a remarkably good teacher. I have three Vajrayogini empowerments from her. She is a primary lineage holder of the Sakya school, and considered a manifestation of the Great Goddess Vajrayogini herself. Vajrayogini is a central and highest practice of all the New Schools of Tibetan Buddism, up through and including the Mahamudra teaching of primordial pure awareness.

    It is not possible to practice these teachings without empowerment from a qualified lineage holder. Empowerment will include vows of basic Buddhist ethics ( the Ten Precepts ) and sacred vows of Mahayana / Great Way - Universal Service. Buddhist refuge and Mahayana vows are an integral part of every single tantric Buddhist empowerment, as is a commitment to some continuing meditative practice, typically involving mantra recitation.

    Mantra means Sanskrit recitation of the names and activities of transcendent beings, i.e. Buddhist angels, in the context of ritual magic and yogic discipline. The purpose of these practices is primarily to develop the transcendent Wisdom, Compassion and Power ( jnana, karuna, bala ) of the fully realized Buddhas, and thereby to become capable of serving the highest good in all humanity from an inner elevated spiritual level. The path includes relative benefits such as inner healing and so forth, but no claims can be made regarding any one practice for any one practitioner.

    Buddhist tantra, while a clear and formal spiritual discipline, is a culturally open and flexible path. This empowerment cycle will include a Hindu goddess ( Tinuma / Parvati ) and a Buddhist form of a primary Hindu deity, Avalokitesvara as Ganapati.

    Note that I do not in any office represent this teacher or fellowship, and that arrangements may change. Please contact and preregister for all events, and be sure to show up quite a bit early, freshly washed and so forth. When the doors close they close. Space may well be quite limited.

    Note also the prerequisite empowerment - either Sakya Hevajra ( included at the beginning ofthis series ) or Sakya Cakrasamvara. There are no substitutions though other lineages of these transmissions.

    May the lineage of Her Eminence Jetsun Kusho flourish long, and may these teachings greatly benefit many.

    Sarva mangalam! Siddhi rastu!
    May All Benefit! May there be accomplishment!

    Written in partial fulfillment of my vajarayana teaching vows, and with great respect for this teacher and lineage.

    KT



    The following resources are available from Snow Lion Publications
    www.snowlionpub.com

    For an overall survery of the meaning of tantric Buddhist empowerment, see
    "EMPOWERMENT"
    by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol

    "The empowerment ritual is the indispensable entrance door to Vajrayana Buddhism. It activates our natural right to an enlightened rule over our life and spiritual practice. [ The book ] 'Empowerment' contains a wealth of instructions on Buddhist training, particularly Mahamudra and Dzogchen."

    For a brief teaching on Mahamudra, see
    "CLARIFYING THE NATURAL STATE", by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal
    and
    "AN OCEAN OF THE ULTIMATE MEANING: Teachings on Mahamudra"
    by Khenchen Thrangu

    "A practical manual for both teacher and student alike, Clarifying the Natural State covers the path from mindfulness to complete enlightenment, simply and methodically. Presenting the profound and ultimate instructions of Mahamudra, it embodies the realization of India and Tibet's greatest masters."

    "Elevate your experience and remain wide open like the sky.
    Expand your mindfulness and remain pervasive like the earth.
    Steady your attention and remain unshakable like a mountain.
    Brighten your awareness and remain shining like a flame.
    Clear your thoughtfree wakefulness and remain lucid like a crystal."
    --Dakpo Tashi Namgyal


    MAHAMUDRA: The Natural Mind DVD
    by Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

    7.5 hour, 4-DVD set.

    #MANADV - $ 48.00
    Mahamudra is the natural state of the mind: luminous, spacious, unhindered and free from dualistic concepts. In these talks, Mingyur Rinpoche provides a brilliant, engaging and accessible introduction to the practice of Mahamudra. With joy, humor and examples that are easily understandable by Western students, Rinpoche explains the meaning of Mahamudra and reveals how it is that our failure to recognize our nature of mind causes us to suffer. He provides extensive practice instructions on objectless meditation and meditation with a variety of supports including mantra, visual objects, sound, thoughts and emotions. In the fourth talk, Rinpoche presents an especially extensive and beneficial teaching on using pain as a support for meditation. For each practice he guides students through a practice session and answers students' questions about the practice. This teaching includes an extremely accessible explanation of Buddha-nature and emptiness.


    For basic teaching on Vajrayogini, see
    "VAJRAYOGINI: Her Visualizations, Rituals and Forms"
    by Elizabeth English

    "SUBLIME PATH TO KECHARA PARADISE: Vajrayogini's Eleven Yogas of Generation Stage Practice"
    commentary by Sermey Khensur Lobsang Tharchin

    "INITIAL PRACTICES OF VAJRAYOGINI: An FPMT Manual for Initiates" ( Restricted text )
    FPMT

    "Vajrayogini is the ultimate flowering of the female energy within all of us. This great manual includes short and longer versions of the sadhana, tsog and other offerings, preparing for retreat, guide to hand mudras and more. Spiral bound to lie flat during practice."

    ----------------------------------------------------

    13 Golden Dharmas Empowerments
    A series of empowerments unique to the Sakyapa

    Hevajra - this is the central practice of Sakya lineage. The complete Sanskrit source tantra has been maintained, along with the practice lineage, since ancient India. See
    "The Concealed Essence of the Hevajra Tantra, with the Commentary Yogaratnamala", by G.W. Farrow and I. Menon, published by Motilal Banarsidass.

    This is a comprehensive inner yogic discipline. See
    "The Triple Tantra", by Panchen Ngawang Choedak, Gorum Publications Autralia.

    The Three Red Ones - (1) Vajrayogini of Naropa, (2) Vajrayogini of Indrabhuti, (3) Vajrayogini of Maitripa.

    The Three Red Deities - (4) Uncommon Kurukulle ( an esoteric form of Red Tara ), (5) Ganapati ( Twelve Armed Ganesh - manifestation of Avalokitesvara ), (6) Takkiraja ( protector deity ).

    The Three Small Red Deities - (7) Kurukulle Golden Chain ( a form of Tara ), (8) Tinuma ( e.g. Hindu goddess Parvati / Uma ), (9) Red Vasudhara ( Wealth Deity Tara ).

    Four Other Deities - (10) Black Manjushri ( wrathful wisdom bodhisattva to reverse spells and sorcery ), (11) Multicolor Garuda ( for protection and healing ), (12) Singha Nada ( Lion's Roar Avalokitesvara ) and (13) Red Jambhala (mundane wealth deity ).

    Pre-requisite: Hevajra or Chakrasamvara empowerment required. Participants who have received either empowerment from a Sakyapa teacher before will not need to take Hevajra empowerment again in order to receive the 13 Golden Dharmas.
    Location: STTL center in Richmond


    Hevajra empowerment - December 20 & 21
    Saturday, December 20 - 6:30 pm
    Sunday, December 21 - 2:30 pm
    - Sadhana is available.

    Other empowerments - December 22 - 31
    ( Partial attendance may be possible. )

    * Sequence of the 13 empowerments will be announced on December 20.
    * Mon - Sat: Empowerment starts at 6:30pm
    * Sunday, December 25 & 26: Empowerment starts at 2:30pm.

    More than one empowerments are scheduled on these days.
    - Sadhanas are available.

    Suggested Donation: For entire series of empowerment - $350 CND

    * Per empowerment - Hevajra $100
    * Vajrayogini of Naropa $50
    * All others - $30

    -------------------------- end announcement -----------------
    • spam.
      • .... and not Buddha Dharma. :)
        • Since when is the Sakya tradition of Tibetan Buddhism not Buddha Dharma?

          I would add that ganesh is also a Kagyu protector.
          • Hinduism. Hindu-infected Buddhism. Think: Mormonism as to Orthodox Christianity; Bahai Faith as to Shi'ism--at one point you have to say: that's a different faith and move on.
            • Unsu...
               
              One could argue that all Buddhism is "Hindu-infected". The fact is, the philosophy, methodology, and goals of Vajrayana remain Buddhist.
              • Indeed. Buddhism is distinguished by its view of Emptiness / Selflessness.
                There are four schools of classical Indian Buddhism-- two of Hinayana,
                and two of Mahayana. In the tenets commentarial literature, these four schools
                are compared and contrasted with other competing philosophies existing in
                Ancient India such as Samkya and Shaivism.

                So to use the analogy of Christianity, just as there are three main branches
                of Christianity (Eastern, Southern and Northern-- Orthodox, Roman Catholic
                and Protestant respectively) the same applies to Buddhism's Hinayana,
                Mahayana and Vajrayana. And some may question sub-schools of Chirstianity
                such as Unitarianism, Swedenborgianism, Mormonism, or even Russian Old
                Believers. They still grow from the same root and heritage; you cannot say they
                are not Christian. For this reason you will not see me arguing against the
                authenticity ofsay the many Nichiren schools, Pure Land Buddhism or Zen--
                even though they are not my cup of Chang (Tibetan beer) :-)

                One Geshe I know says quite unequivocally that when you compare the practices
                of Hindu and Buddhist yogis, the main difference is view; and non-Buddhists
                can accomplish several levels of meditative experience mentioned in Buddhist
                Scriptures, even if they won't accomplish complete enlightenment ... Conversely,
                proper application of Buddhist Tantra *can* result in complete enlightenment
                in a single lifetime.
                • I don't say these things to pick a other sects--as we know, the Buddha has said there are many paths to Enlightenment. I only say what I say because when we are talking about Hindu deities and Empowerments we have gotten off the point of the samana movements--specifically the samana movement that has become Buddhism.

                  Buddhism.... like other movements of the Buddha's time (Gosala's and Mahavirna's for example) were referred to as the samanas because they rejected society (i.e. the trappings of religious life at the time). The point of these philosophies was to reject the texts and de-emphasize the focus on religious ritual, etc. What you have with Buddhism though is a change where over time even the Buddhist monasteries start to get away from this simplicity and into more Hindu forms of worship as Brahmism forms into what we now call Hinduism (which was a direct result of the influence of Buddhism's organization). In fact, Gosala's sect is completely folded into what would become Hinduism with in a few hundred years--influencing Hinduism in many ways.

                  The example of Christianity doesn't work, because there is still orthodox Christianity and non-orthodox Christianity. And actually it plays out more like orthodox Christianity contains a variety of Christianities (Roman Catholic, "Eastern Orthodox," and Oriental Christianity).... everything else is just chaos and rule bending--and yes, they are not "Christian"--they are whatever their human founders wanted them to be. Why I think your analogy doesn't work: Christianity was a faith that set out to deify a man and move from there--and Buddhism, not so much. No images of the Buddha exist until about the time of Christ (600-something years later). Mind you, people started to worship the relics of the Buddha but that wasn't the point to worship the Buddha. And indeed, these differences and others sprung forth different sects of Buddhism and those gave birth to still others and many vestiges are still with us today--but that doesn't mean they reflect the Buddhism of the Buddha. All we are required to do is go back to when the Buddha lived... and see what he did--he rejected the Vedic construct. He de-emphasized these things that are overly concerned with cosmology. Students would ask him questions and he didn't answer such deity based questions.

                  If as Buddhism has evolved and teaching tools... "this is the ideal of Wisdom (Manjushri), Compassion, etc." have since become worshipped--then that is no different that exactly what the Buddha rejected. We are just fortunately enough to be part of such a faith that permits all these differences (for the most part).




                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    I only offer the Christian analogy because you did.
                    Of course, in terms of doctrine there's no comparison.
                    I have said before when certain people assert that
                    "Orthodox Christianity" is roughly equivalent to Calvinism,
                    that they're plainly wrong. The Only Sect that can claim
                    anything like orthodoxy is the oldest one whose liturgy
                    most resembles Jewish prayer, and whose main purpose
                    is divinization, i.e the Orthodox group. I'll add that I have qualms
                    with the historical creeds in that I think that they were trying to
                    answer the wrong questions-- but that's not really a subject for
                    us Buddhists (unless we're religion nerds.)

                    The problem with designating a "true Buddhism" is diversity of texts
                    and languages. The councils had to deal with distinct Pali and Sanskrit
                    literatures that contradict each other on certain philosophic points.
                    Beyond that, there's very little that's normative in Buddhism. In essence,
                    you've got the Four Dharma Seals. In many sutras, Lord Buddha says that
                    books, stupas, statues, and even human beings who explain the stutras
                    are equivalent to him.

                    The three main branches of Buddhist thought are holographic, they reflect
                    each other. What is implied by one is explicit in another. The Tantras are
                    for example are predicated upon the prajnaparamita. In the final analysis,
                    the proof is in the result. Since countless individuals have accomplished
                    enlightenment and/or rainbow body-- even to this generation-- by using
                    authentic practices from pure land and tantric sources, we cannot doubt.
                    • "True Buddhism" is only a problem to extract because of the additives--which in some way trails your comments on the development of Christianity, but you are applying the additives idea only to Christianity, not latter-day Buddhism (or even the Buddhism at the time of the writing of the sutras).

                      It's true the sects of Buddhism reflect each other--when you picked out some Mahayanist sects to say they were not your cup of chang... the ones you mentioned actually took elements from Tien tai (Vajrayana). I just found it interesting because each of the ones you mentioned focusses on one aspect of worship, but they reflect the whole. But I would argue we see it this way because we are influenced by Vajrayana--and the initial point was just meditation and compassionate/mindful living.

                      The issue is not doubt the issue is focus and the initial posts here. As I noted there were many paths to Enlightenment.


                      • Zen and Pure land are derivative of Tien Tai?
                        I'm not arguing what's crucially important.

                        Rather I have qualms with the notion that Buddhism
                        can be essentialized down to a single practice
                        such as vipassana meditation, zazen, odaimoku, etc.
                        I do not argue that these practices don't work or aren't
                        beneficial. But one can sit zazen for decades and not
                        experience kensho if the practitioner doesn't get the
                        complete instruction of the tradition (i.e. the focus on
                        one element to the exclusion of the others.)

                        The Vajrayana (esoteric) is a vehicle. It is predicated
                        upon the prajnaparamita and the bodhisattva bhumi
                        sutras. It is implied in the Flower Ornament Sutra.
                        Merely reciting a sadhana text or mantra is unlikely
                        to accomplish much without understanding the purpose
                        and function within a larger Mahayana context.

                        I add that every religion has its esoteric vehicle, and
                        some people try to reduce those religions to the purely
                        exoteric. That's the sort of thing I have qualms with.
        • Yea... K does this allot. Oh well.
          • K
            K
            offline 140

            Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

            Thu, December 11, 2008 - 10:51 AM

            Clearly not, Curt.
            you're not authorized to use a fraction of the Buddhist yogas I practice.
            Bad argument you made. You are not omniscient nor a mind reader, and that is the first of your many mistakes.
            How sad that you show yourself as not thinking well or arguing well.
            If you have "mahayana vows" ( which you clearly do not understand ), then you're in a bit of hot water.

            KT

            • K
              K
              offline 140

              Title: Vajrayogini practice materials available online / further references to Goddess Vajrayogini ( New School Indo-Tibetan Vajrayana )

              Summary: Provided here is a reference to online practice materials for restricted Vajrayogini goddess yoga ( tantric Buddhist New School lineages only ), and also further information on Vajrayogini in different forms.


              The following includes *copyrighted* material from a web site that makes available sacred teachings and practices for Vajrayogini for Vajrayogini initiates. The purpose of excerpting this material is to make known the important and valuable service performed by Vajrayogini Practice Support, as well as to provide more basic introduction to the practice of Goddess Vajrayogini.

              In this case the name Vajrayogini and/ or Vajravarahi refers to the New School / Indo-Tibetan Sarma lineages of Vajrayogini. It does not ( in the present instance ) refer to the Old School / Nyingma transmissions and practices of "Dechen Gyalmo / Queen of Great Bliss" and Troma Nakmo / Krsna Kali / Wrathful Black Mother. The New School and Old School lineages and practice traditions are wholly independent and not immediately compatible in this context of yoga sadhana, as elsewhere.

              The New School / Sarma lineages are based on numerous transmissions which employ the mantra
              OM OM OM
              SARVA BUDDHA DAKINIYE
              VAJRA VARNANIYE
              VAJRA VAIROCANIYE
              HUM HUM HUM
              PHAT PHAT PHAT SVAHA

              and are also focused on the Mahamudra awareness yogas ( *not* the Old School Atiyoga / dzogchen awareness yogas ).

              The above mantra is not part of the Old School Dechen Gyalmo or Troma practices, although these latter are in fact referred to as Diamond Female Yogi / Vajrayogini practices, and are primary practices for Old School / Atiyoga practice. Thus the same generic title is clearly employed in parallel but markedly different ways, and the distinction is with regard to lineage and groupings of mantras and awareness yogas. I know this first hand, having many initiations for Dechen Gyalmo, and for Troma, and for New School Vajrayogini ( in the Kagyu and Sakya schools ). I have studied these traditions and help people with such practice, as seen here.

              There is also the "Hindu" form Chinnamasta Vajrayogini, which according to western scholarship is shown to be a definite instance of Hindu culture absorbing and continuing classical tantric Buddhist practice.

              See also the wikipedia entry
              en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayogini
              and the very worthwhile references for same

              Sarva mangalam! Siddhi rastu!

              KT


              From
              vajrayogini.com/
              Vajrayogini - An Introduction
              Copyright © 2005 - 2008 Vajrayogini Practice Support


              "Vajrayogini Practice Support
              Some of the resources are publicly accessible whereas the majority of the Vajrayogini practice material is made available only to qualified practitioners. In order to gain access to these materials you have to register. The registration process is explained at the end of this article.
              Access Requirements
              In order to read or view the materials offered on this site, and derive any benefit from it, one has to have received a Highest Yoga (Anuttara) Tantra initiation, such as Kalachakra, Guhyasamaja, Chakrasamvara, Hevajra, Yamantaka, Vajrayogini, etc. from a qualified Vajramaster in the Gelug and/or Sakya tradition."


              "Vajrayogini
              Vajrayogini or Vajravarahi as a tantric Buddhist meditational deity (Tibetan: yidam or Sanskrit: ishtadeva) comes to us in many forms and from various lineages. She embodies principally: (1) the fully enlightened female, wild, fiery, and energetic (shakti/kundalini) aspect of a Buddha; (2) the wisdom (= experiential) aspect leading to Buddhahood; and (3) as a principal dakini (Tibetan: mKha' gro; "sky-goer") the (com)passionate guiding and inspirational aspect leading the practitioner to enlightenment.
              Vajradakinis

              "In Anuttara Yoga Tantra the principal dakini (often called "Vajra-" or "Wisdom-dakini") is mostly shown in union with a male consort, like in the deities Guhyasamaja, Hevajra, Kalachakra, etc. In our case, Vajrayogini/Vajravarahi is the principal female buddha in the Chakrasamvara Tantra and is in union with Heruka Chakrasamvara. Since the Vajradakinis are considered buddhas and yidams in their own right over time several spin-off practices have evolved from those practices simplifying the otherwise complicated main practice and reducing it to a single-deity meditation without dropping the principal aspects/benefits of the main practice (e.g. Vajrayogini/Vajravarahi out of Chakrasamvara and Nairatmya out of Hevajra).

              "General Characteristics
              Vajrayogini/Vajravarahi ranks first and most important among the dakinis. She is the "Sarva-buddha-dakini" the Dakini Who is the Essence of all Buddhas. Although there are a number of visual representations of Vajrayogini, certain attributes are common to all: She is mostly shown as young, naked, and standing in a desirous or dancing posture. She holds a blood-filled skull cup in one hand and a curved knife (kartr or dri-gug) in the other. Often she wears a garland of human skulls or severed heads; has a khatvanga staff leaning against her shoulder; her usually wild hair flowing down her neck and back; her face in a semi-wrathful expression. Her radiant red body is ablaze with the heat of yogic fire and surrounded by the flames of wisdom."

              "Various Forms & Lineages
              Varietals of Vajrayogini/Vajravarahi seem to be present in all schools of Tibetan Buddhism, for example the Padmadakini/Yeshe Tsogyal in the Nyingma or the Khundrol-ma in the Bon tradition. Here we focus on the forms of Vajrayogini as practiced in the New Translation or Sarma School (= Kagyu, Sakya, and Gelug traditions) of Tibetan Buddhism. These forms of Vajrayogini share the triple-OM mantra (with minor variations), are usually named Vajra-yogini or Vajra-varahi, and can be traced back to one of the Indian mahasiddhas who lived in the 10th and 11th century, or to one of the Tibetan translators of the Sarma School like Marpa."


              ----------------- end --------------------


            • Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

              Fri, December 12, 2008 - 11:09 PM
              Who cares about any of this stuff. That's exactly why religions don't work.

              We all have stuff to deal with, and some of us are aware of that, and we don't pretend that there is a heirarchy that requires authorization. Who is the authority? No one other than ones' self. You only need a guru if you think that you need one.

              If you have mahayana vows, than would you not be comprimising them by not having compassion for curt? You told curt that he is not a mind reader, but you said he is in hot water.

              Student acting like teacher. Ego's re-incarnation for the promise of imortality. How said your expression of identification with a mental position makes your practice look like it does you no good.
              • Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

                Sat, December 13, 2008 - 7:42 AM
                Agreed. K. did address only Curt, and in my opinion that's very odd.

                However, I want to address a common misconception:
                No Authority buy one's own.

                If there are no clergy, no "authorities" there is no triple gem to take
                refuge in. Without lineage there is no Dharma and no future Buddhas.
                Without lineage holders, there are no vows: no pratimoksha or vinnaya;
                no mahayana vows, and no tantric samayas.

                Indeed it is true that ALL Dharmas are for the purpose of subduing and
                taming mind. That said there's also wrathful -compassion: the idea being
                that one is willing do do "anything necessary" to wake somebody up.
                I have met very few genuine wrathful crazy wisdom tantric Lamas.
                • Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

                  Thu, December 25, 2008 - 3:27 PM
                  With all of these different religions,. we still have no future Buddha's, for where are they now?

                  Who was the Buddha's guru?

                  Im pretty sure all of this dogma is why Buddhism was created in the first place, yet here we are distorting the message.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

                    Thu, December 25, 2008 - 4:39 PM
                    There are many, many future buddhas. They are called bodhisattvas. The next one will be named Maitreya.

                    The historical Buddha, Shakyamuni, had many, many gurus in his pervious lives as well as itwo important ones in his last life.

                    Do you have a citation for that last assertion, or is it just something you made up because it feels good to you?
                    • Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

                      Thu, December 25, 2008 - 4:52 PM
                      I thought the concept of a future-anything was taught as an illusion, and the influence of the past on the present, equally an illusion, and yet you are accusing me of making something up for the sake of feeling good because I decided to use my own brain with deductive reasoning instead of downloading scriptures? I would hardily be reserved to call that being presumptuous.

                      You have no evidence of any future Buddhas. Much less their names.

                      You have no evidence of any past Buddha's. Much less their practices.

                      What is a past life my friend? What lives in the organism that carries onto the next organism?
                      • Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

                        Fri, December 26, 2008 - 10:24 AM
                        Quite the contrary, Ralph.

                        Buddhism, unlike Discordianism, posits specific views
                        according to four philosophic systems. Also, Buddhists must
                        be able to demonstrate that an assertion meets criteria for
                        being Buddhist. So the four dharma seals are to be found
                        in the scriptures, the words of the Buddha Shakyamuni.

                        Also, there are rules for debate in the commentaries:
                        the shastras. What constitutes a valid congnition is
                        clearly defined.

                        The names of past and future Buddhas are found in
                        the scriptures. The reasoning behind concepts like
                        "past" and future" is also clearly defined. Each philosophic
                        system: Sutra, Particular, Mind only and Middle Way have their
                        own explanation.
                        • Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

                          Fri, December 26, 2008 - 11:24 AM
                          Do you really think that you have answered my questions? Or is there a chance that you have been preaching to the choir?
                          • Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

                            Fri, December 26, 2008 - 12:22 PM
                            No, I haven't. I assume you're asking Konchog.

                            I'm just alerting you, as the moderator, that this is
                            a tribe of Buddhists, for Buddhists and those interested in
                            becoming Buddhists. I expect debate to proceed according
                            to the conventions of the tradition.
                            • K
                              K
                              offline 140
                              Re Polka Dots:
                              "I don't say these things to pick a other sects--as we know, the Buddha has said there are many paths to Enlightenment. I only say what I say because when we are talking about Hindu deities and Empowerments we have gotten off the point of the samana movements--specifically the samana movement that has become Buddhism.

                              Buddhism.... like other movements of the Buddha's time (Gosala's and Mahavirna's for example) were referred to as the samanas because they rejected society (i.e. the trappings of religious life at the time). The point of these philosophies was to reject the texts and de-emphasize the focus on religious ritual, etc. What you have with Buddhism though is a change where over time even the Buddhist monasteries start to get away from this simplicity and into more Hindu forms of worship as Brahmism forms into what we now call Hinduism (which was a direct result of the influence of Buddhism's organization). . . ."

                              There are clear and effective arguments in what PD says.
                              My post on the Sakya empwoerments is in fact proof that he is correct : Buddhist transmissions do in fact sometimes include Hindu transmissions, as above.
                              This is part of the doctrine of Skilful Means, and part of the classical and very open-ended progress or evolution of the Buddhist teaching.

                              Guru Sakyamuni criticized fire offerings. However Tibetan and Japanese esoteric priests perform fire offerings, for example fire offerings of Vajrayogini. Does this make Buddhist fire offerings anti-Buddhist? No.

                              Please note that every Sakya ( or other real tantric Buddhist ) empowerment includes Buddhist refuge and bodhisattva vows. Always. If you criticize tantric Buddhist empowerments as being ritual, then you are criticizing Buddhist refuge and Mahayana dharma altogether. This is clearly a severe fault in anyone who has accepted Buddhist refuge, and in particular the Mahayana vows.

                              Repeating Mahayana vows is a ritual, so is reciting Buddhist scripture, such as Medicine Buddha scripture or Amitabha scripture. The Mahayana deities are *not* derivative from the Hindu deities, many of them come directly from Guru Sakyamuni himself. Please keep this in mind.

                              Since Poka Dots gave reasonable criticism, I am responsible for giving a reasonable response. You have been answered.

                              Sarva mangalam. Long live the Mahayana.

                              KT

                            • Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

                              Fri, December 26, 2008 - 3:49 PM
                              Oh, I forgot that my profile said I was a discordian. Nah, I actually chose that one as a joke (since discordianism can either be viewed as a religion disguised as a joke or a joke disguised as a religion).

                              I am drawn more into Buddhism than any other philosophy. I almost took refuge under Bardo Tulku Rinpoche back in feb of 06, but there was an incident with a creepy lay Buddhist that prevented me from ever going back to the Dharma Center. So I just practiced self-study instead.

                              Do you have any preferance as to what school of Buddhist Philosophy can be discussed?
                              • What's Good

                                Fri, December 26, 2008 - 5:37 PM
                                This tribe "Buddhadharma" is open to all Buddhists.

                                We assume that any discussion or debate here reflects
                                respect for the Pali and Sanskrit Sutric Canons, the
                                shastras and tantras.

                                Honest debate is quite welcome. Sincerity and politeness
                                are expected.

                                There are four schools: two of Hinayana-- Sutra, and Particular;
                                two of Mahayana-- Mind Only and Middle Way. All Buddhist
                                traditions: Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana meet the criteria
                                of the four dharma seals and fall within one of these four schools
                                or a hybrid. No national form of Buddhadharma is favored.
                                • K
                                  K
                                  offline 140
                                  Re Ralph:
                                  "Im pretty sure all of this dogma is why Buddhism was created in the first place".

                                  I have answered Ralph on another tribe.
                                  Regarding the above, the original intention of Sakyamuni Buddha was to teach liberating practices of Wisdom, Compassion and Power, including the practice of mantra yoga.

                                  It is mistaken to confuse yoga sadhana with mere religious dogma and belief.
                                  The way to lies in conscious inner practice and personal responsibility, not blind belief. So taught the Buddha.

                                  KT



                                  Keywords: Buddhist tantric yoga, Goddess Vajrayogini empowerment announcement [ Ohio, February ], Vajrayogini resources [ sadhana text, associated teaching materials ], Garchen Institute Arizona, Drikung Kagyu lineage, book: "Pearl Rosary" [ new collection of broadly tantric practice texts ].

                                  Summary and Discussion: I have shared important information on the tantric Buddhist practice of Vajrayogini and Mahamudra, e.g. event information and general resources, such as in the Sakya tradition. This is a follow up bulletin, noting another upcoming empowerment and further practice materials.

                                  These are from a distinct lineage, the Drikung Kagyu, which like the Sakya lineage derives from the transmission of Great Adept Naropa. These Drikung resources are not well known to the general public, but they are very important for tantric Buddhists and tantric aspirants in North America and worldwide.

                                  An excellent example and summary teaching for this lineage is given in the book
                                  "Garland of Mahamudra Practices", by Khenchen Konchog Gyaltshen. [ Paperback: 144 pages. Publisher: Snow Lion Publications (February 25, 2002) ISBN-10: 1559391731 ISBN-13: 978-1559391733 ]. Like all such teachings of tantric Buddhist yoga, it is only of practical use to those who have the corresponding tantric empowerment, e.g. Goddess Vajrayogini.

                                  I have several principal transmissions of this lineage through HH Chetsang Tulku, the current primary lineage holder, and I use and recommend the Drikung practice texts for initiates of Vajrayogini, Mahamudra, and related tantric practices.

                                  This is written in gratitude to the lineage masters, and to help all those worthy of such teachings. Dedication: May these tantric lineages manifest strongly and greatly benefit beings throughout the world.
                                  Sarva mangalam. Siddhi rastu!

                                  Lineage invocation:
                                  OM AH NAMO GURU VAJRADHRIKA MAHAMUDRA SIDDHI PHALA HUM
                                  OM AH NAMO GURU PRAJNABHADRA MAHAMUDRA SIDDHI PHALA HUM
                                  OM AH NAMO GURU JNANASIDDHI MAHAMUDRA SIDDHI PHALA HUM



                                  Acarya KT


                                  Garchen Buddhist Institute Online Bookstore
                                  [ Tibetan Tantric Buddhist / Vajrayana, specifically Drikung Kagyu lineage ]
                                  www.garchen.net/GBI-Shop/

                                  The Garchen Buddhist Institute in Chino Valley, Arizona is a Tibetan Buddhist center founded by His Eminence Garchen Rinpoche for Dharma teachings and retreat opportunities. Programs are offered throughout the year for students and spiritual practitioners from all religious traditions.

                                  Contact info:
                                  Garchen Institute
                                  PO Box 4318
                                  Chino Valley, AZ. 86323
                                  USA
                                  928.925.1237
                                  questions "at" garchen.net
                                  Bookstore:
                                  www.garchen.net/GBI-Shop/index.php

                                  H.E. Garchen Rinpoche
                                  February 3-8 - Dayton, Ohio
                                  Gar Drolma Buddhist Center
                                  Vajrayogini Empowerment and Practice
                                  Teachings on The Ganges Mahamudra
                                  For more information:
                                  www.gardrolma.org
                                  gd "at" gardrolma.org

                                  The Garchen Institute and H.E. Garchen Rinpoche follow and uphold the tantric lineage of the Drikung branch of the Kagyu, which descends from the Great Adepts Tilopa and Naropa through the realized Tibetan tantric masters Marpa, Milarepa, Gampopa and then Phagmodrupa. This is a major resource for tantric Buddhist practitioners in the US southwest and for all North America.

                                  The Drikung lineage is currently headed by HH Chetsang Tulku Rinpoche. The global Drikung website, supporting the Drikung lineage and community in many U.S. states, countries and parts of the world, is
                                  www.drikung-kagyu.org/

                                  Thus the principal teachings of Mahasiddha [ Great Adept ] Naropa, including Goddess Vajrayogini and Mahamudra [ primordial awareness yoga ], and the overall teachings of the Kagyu lineage, are available worldwide. I have received major sets of transmission from HH Chetsang Tulku [ 1987 and 1994 ], as well as several other principal Kagyu masters. I attest that the Drikung Kagyu is an important and potent lineage, and that HH Chetsang Tulku Rinpoche is a great master. As a tantric guru I use and recommend a broad range of Drikung practice texts.


                                  From
                                  www.garchen.net/GBI-Shop/

                                  Our original Dharma shop was created in a small space here at the Institute to offer meditation supplies at a reasonable price. The GBI-Webstore has come about as an extension of the success of this little shop at the retreat center. We are here for you - so please let us know how we can better serve you.

                                  1) Vajrayogini practice text
                                  The Daily Practice of the Arising Stage and Mantra Recitation of Vajrayogini Who Has the Face of the Two Truths
                                  [ useful only to Vajrayogini initiates, who can be of any tantric lineage, e.g. Sakya, Kagyu, or Gelugpa ]

                                  This primarily generation-stage practice of Vajrayogini comes from the Mother Tantra division of the Maha-Anuttara Yoga Tantras. Mother Tantras have the aspect of emphasizing great wisdom. In this practice one generates one's nature as the enlightened deity, Vajrayogini, the essence of bliss and non-dual wisdom. Through diligent practice one can actualize this union and fully discover one's primordial enlightened nature.

                                  2) Vajrayogini Practice (CD 215)
                                  $10.00
                                  [ useful only to Vajrayogini initiates, who can be of any tantric lineage, e.g. Sakya, Kagyu, or Gelugpa ]

                                  Vajrayogini/Vajravarahi represents the transformed emotions of passion into compassion, and ignorance into wisdom. She is associated with the Buddha Vairocana and is the dakini consort of Chakrasamvara. Her form and practice are used in generation stage practices, but particularly in the completion stage practices of the Six Yogas of Naropa. She was the tutelary dakini of the adepts Marpa, Milarepa, Gampopa, and Phagmodrupa, and because of this she is an especially important figure within the Kagyu lineage.

                                  Practice and Mantra recitation by Venerable Traga Rinpoche. 1 disc.

                                  3) Vajrayogini Teachings (CD 117)
                                  $50.00
                                  [ useful only to Vajrayogini initiates, who can be of any tantric lineage, e.g. Sakya, Kagyu, or Gelugpa ]

                                  Vajravarahi [ e.g. Vajrayogini ] represents the transformed emotions of passion into compassion, and ignorance into wisdom. She is associated with the Buddha Vairocana, and is the dakini consort of Cakrasamvara. Her form and practice are used in generation stages, and particularly in the Six Yogas of Naropa. She was the tutelary dakini [ guiding goddess ] of the adepts Marpa, Milarepa, Gampopa, and Phagmodrupa, and because of this she is an especially important figure within the Kagyu lineage.

                                  Instructions on the generation stage by Venerable Traga Rinpoche. 5 discs.

                                  4) Pearl Rosary: The Path of Purification
                                  By Khenchen Konchog Gyaltshen Rinpoche
                                  edited by Khenmo Trinlay Chodron
                                  $29.95

                                  [ This set of tantric practice texts, or sadhana, is of great practical value to tantric practitioners of any of the Tibetan Sarma traditions, e,g, Sakya, Kagyu, and Gelugpa. Typically by receiving even one major empowerment into Highest Yoga Tantra, such as Vajrayogini, one receives *full* authorization for a large number of ritual practices, including Vajrasattva, Goddess Tara, Avalokitesvara, Buddha Vairocana, Buddha Amitabha, and so forth. ]

                                  "This very valuable text contains eleven sadhanas with commentary by Khenchen [ Great Abbot ] Konchog Gyaltshen Rinpoche. Sadhanas include: Chenrezig [ Avalokitesvara ] Meditation Practice, Manjushri Meditation Practice, Vajrapani Meditation Practice, Green Tara Meditation Practice, White Tara Meditation Practice, Supplication to the Seven Taras, Buddha Amitabha Meditation Practice, Buddha Amitayus Meditation Practice, Medicine Buddha Meditation Practice, Vajrasattva Meditation Practice, and Achi Chokyi Drolma [ Goddess Protector specific to the Drikung Kagyu ] Meditation Practice.

                                  "The content of this text is primarily meant for people who don't have the opportunity to engage in Dharma practice in the presence of the teacher. The book itself is a representation of the teacher, and therefore is meant to help one's Dharma practice. The text describes the methods of visualization and how to incorporate practice into our day to day life experience . . . The visualization of these deities is mainly concerned with the practices of tantrayana and mantrayana, which are the highest forms of practice. The path of visualization is very powerful and if properly engaged, [ sometimes ] capable of transforming our life within a single moment."

                                  "By engaging in this kind of practice, infinite clarity of mind is achieved, and through such power, we are able to purify our ordinary body and manifest the body of the deity. Likewise, we are able to purify our ordinary body and manifest the body of the deity. Likewise, we are able to purify ordinary speech, and manifest wisdom speech. Futhermore, we are able to purify the deluded ordinary mind, and realize the wisdom mind."
                                  from the foreward by
                                  His Holiness Drikung Kyabgon Chetsang Rinpoche

                                  [ end ]

                                  • You may think you have answered my question, but yet I sit here curious as to why you think that we need this to the extent that you post nothing but mantra's and philosophy Behind them.

                                    You being a Buddhist should understand that it's all your karma, so why worry?
                                    • K
                                      K
                                      offline 140

                                      Re Ralph:
                                      "Who cares about any of this stuff. That's exactly why religions don't work. We all have stuff to deal with, and some of us are aware of that, and we don't pretend that there is a heirarchy that requires authorization. Who is the authority? No one other than ones' self."

                                      Who is the authority? In practical terms, Karma is the authority. That means, you can do what you want And There Will Be Consequences.

                                      You say "religions don't work". You don't say which ones, and you don't say why.

                                      In Buddhist teaching, there is a living transmission that comes from generations of authorized gurus. The Dalai Lama is one very real example, and I fully respect and support his lineage, his authority, and this is no pretence.

                                      It is Guru Sakyamuni Buddha who taught the Ten Ethical Precepts and the consequences of unethical actions. He is the founding authority for all those who call themselves Buddhist, which clearly would not include you. Since on blind and foolish "principle" you do refuse to accept the wisdom and spiritual authority of any master, even Sakyamuni Buddha, you are unteachable, and I have no need to respond - in this or any tribe - to those who proudly claim to be unteachable.

                                      Yeah, it's all karma, but in the Buddhist teaching karma is a very very serious matter, and Guru Sakyamuni taught us to be very aware and careful regarding the karmas of Body Speech and Mind. It's an alternative to living unconsciously and painfully, like a drunken monkey who gets stung by the scorpion. Clearly you have not begun to study the Buddhist teachings on karma, so you can't build any argument from that. The teaching on karma is the opposite of "so why worry." It's instead about getting real and getting down the road through spiritual work. And that starts with the Ten Precepts taught by Sakyamuni.

                                      For those that are new to Buddhist teachings, I recommend the book
                                      "The Dharma That Illuminates", by Kalu Rinpoche, a great modern lineage master, and one of my main teachers.
                                      That is a basis for communication, as is the Dhammapada.

                                      OM MUNI MUNI MAHAMUNIYE SAKYAMUNIYE SVAHA


                                      KT

                                      • It's only serious if you view it as serious

                                        Fri, January 2, 2009 - 10:16 PM
                                        "Who is the authority? In practical terms, Karma is the authority. That means, you can do what you want And There Will Be Consequences."

                                        If Karma is the authority than what exactly is it? From what I was taught, Karma is simply doing.

                                        "You say "religions don't work". You don't say which ones, and you don't say why. "

                                        As a whole, religions have done more harm than good. A good example is the state of our world affairs today. Which religion doesn't work? Hmm, how many Buddhist are there on this planet, and yet how many of them are still missing the point of the Dharma? Enlightenment has been reduced to a mere concept which will just agitate neurosis. I have interacted with many Buddhist from india who download the Dharma verbatim, and when you have a discussion with them, you come to realize that they do not grasp what they preach. And mind you, this was not an isolated incident.

                                        I have reccomend a book for you, it's called cutting through spiritual materialism by Chogyam Trungpa. If you have read it, then I think you understand why I reccomend it.

                                        "In Buddhist teaching, there is a living transmission that comes from generations of authorized gurus. The Dalai Lama is one very real example, and I fully respect and support his lineage, his authority, and this is no pretence."

                                        He only has authority because you grant him authority.


                                        "It is Guru Sakyamuni Buddha who taught the Ten Ethical Precepts and the consequences of unethical actions. He is the founding authority for all those who call themselves Buddhist, which clearly would not include you. Since on blind and foolish "principle" you do refuse to accept the wisdom and spiritual authority of any master, even Sakyamuni Buddha, you are unteachable, and I have no need to respond - in this or any tribe - to those who proudly claim to be unteachable. "

                                        Ethics should be developed naturaly, or else we will find ourselves with "split mind" which is the greek origin for schitzophrenia.

                                        We are all in great gratitude towards the Buddha, but now he only exist in the minds of those who seek comfort from the very thing they wish to be released from....their mind. For you to say that I am blind and foolish because I do not agree with your forceful writing and to top it off by saying I am unteachable, says alot more about you than me.

                                        I had a teacher, Yogarishi Deolal Mahabir, who was a direct disciple of Swami Rama. He certainly didn't think that I was unteachable. But he once taught me to look out for charletons selling thier ideas any chance they get by putting others down with their highly developed spiritual ego.

                                        Keep in mind, I do not claim to be proudly unteachable, I just don't buy regurgitated philosophy from a fellow student claiming to be a teacher. If you have a sense of entitlement to the extent that you can call yourself a teacher, than that's great, but insulting ones state of mind doesn't show master qualities, it only shows student errors in logic.

                                        "Yeah, it's all karma, but in the Buddhist teaching karma is a very very serious matter, and Guru Sakyamuni taught us to be very aware and careful regarding the karmas of Body Speech and Mind. It's an alternative to living unconsciously and painfully, like a drunken monkey who gets stung by the scorpion. Clearly you have not begun to study the Buddhist teachings on karma, so you can't build any argument from that. The teaching on karma is the opposite of "so why worry." It's instead about getting real and getting down the road through spiritual work. And that starts with the Ten Precepts taught by Sakyamuni."

                                        Again, you are making the fundemental error in assuming my state of consciousness. The fact that you react the way you do when I question your motivations is very telling, no need for sutra's or cannons, it's right here, right now.

                                        So now comes the argument... "I have read more sacred text than you, I have sat with my eyes closed longer than you, I have seen more visions than you, you are surely not prepared for what I am trying to sell"

                                        Sure, say what you will, but that is all your karma, and as long as you believe in it, well.......you know the rest.

                                        But once again, with the assuming others state of consciousness, clearly your teacher has not instructed you to follow what you preach. How silly is it for the ego to point fingers at the ego? How silly is it for the student to assume the teacher role and and comdemn someone to an unteachable state when you claim to be apart of the "greater vehicle"? I guess I am not invited on the cruise? What about seperateness just being a game of maya? Is my form that condemned lord yama?
                                        • K
                                          K
                                          offline 140

                                          Re: Re Vajrayogini practice materials: different mantras have different practices and different results

                                          Re Ralph concerning mantra practice ( tribe kundalini yoga, same discussion ):
                                          "to imagine that a certain combination of words will bring about a different result is, well, your imagination."

                                          Clearly, Ralphie, you have no knowledge that the energetic structure of healing ( shantim ) mantras can be radically different from wrathful ( khrodha ) mantras. The difference between these types of mantra is well known to Hindus and Buddhists in general.

                                          It is very very ignorant to think that in Hindu tantra or the Vedas that the seed syllable mantras SRIM, HRIM, AYIM, HUM, PHAT and KRIM have the "same" vibration or have an "identical" result. They are *different* mantras and have *different* results.

                                          Thus, for Ralph to imagine that different combinations of mantra words Do Not bring about different results is well, merely the expression of his own imagination.

                                          Major Hindu teachers use different categories of mantra to get very different results. So do major Buddhist teachers.
                                          Ralph clearly claims to know more than the Hindu AND Buddhist lineage holders and in effect claims they are just imagining things in a deluded way. Nothing could be further from the truth.

                                          But in fact, the Dalai Lama gives different kinds of mantras that are associated with different kinds of yogas and kundalini yogas. The Dalai Lama's empowerment of Kalacakra is associated Only with Mahamudra / Great Seal yoga, while his empowerment of Eightfold Padmasambhava is associated Only with a very distinct set of yogas, that of Atiyoga / Great Perfection.

                                          Obviously, the Hindu mantras work more within the context of Hindu Sanatana Dharma, and do *not* directly work as substitutes for Buddhist mantras, because they do not typically carry the lineage or the yogas of Buddhist mantras.

                                          A primary example is the tantric Buddhist practice of Vajrasattva. This is a primary and central Buddhist mantra for purification on all levels, including the purification of damaged Buddhist vows such as the inner tantric samaya(s). A Hindu mantra in general cannot *possibly* fulfill this function, because it is *not* part of the Buddhist vows of Buddhist Refuge, Bodhicitta, Buddhatantra and so forth. It is a definite categorical difference.

                                          An empowerment into peaceful Vajrasattva does *not* automatically include empowerment into the practice of the Wrathful Vajrasattva Vajrakilaya. The difference is very profound and must be respected.

                                          A single empowerment for the Buddhist Goddess Tara does create a bridge to all the Twenty One forms of Tara, BUT there are still different individual mantras for each of the 21 Taras.

                                          Ralphie is making very elementary mistakes, more and more of them over time. I have cleared up a few key points here. I do not have to address all the confusion and loose rambling "discussion" put forward by the poor fellow. He is not my responsibility. This is more than enough follow-through for now.

                                          Thanks for playing!

                                          May this be of benefit.

                                          KT
                                          • Who is making mistakes? You are misinterpreting what I say instead of asking for clarification, and than continue to offend me through wordy rhetoric and calling me a "poor fellow" named ralphie. I tell you, I don't feel poor at all, but thanks for asking......

                                            This entire post is predicated on K's misunderstanding of what I ment when I said that mantra's do not differ in their result. He implies I have made some elementary mistakes in plural when he only quoted me on one statement that I stand behind. The funny thing is, the one quote that he is making an argument against required an entire page to explain himself. Not so succinct eh?

                                            Who measures these vibrational frequencies K? The palm of your hands?

                                            Now, I have seen EEG'S showing different brain activity when different mantra's (lam, ram, eek and so on...) are used (yes K, believe it or not, this poor fellow that you call me- can not only read, but read brain scan technology since that is what I have studied formally in college) but my point is that getting hung up on all of this subjective experience mud is more of a hinderance. Learning different mantra's and yogic positions are like trading baseball cards to me. Even yet, something of less value of baseball cards, because what good has it done you? You still feel compulsed to personally offend people. Uh oh, K is gonna bust out with the super secret compassion mantra! That one will really work! I can almost feel the humility radiating off of your aura!


                              • Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

                                Fri, January 9, 2009 - 6:50 PM
                                Hey Ralph,
                                I used to be a member of KTC in Jax so I probably know to whomever you were refering (maybe it was me?)....I am in SC now but may be able to offer some help regarding finding a sangha near Jax.
                                Namaste,
                                Bill
                                • Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

                                  Sat, January 10, 2009 - 8:15 AM
                                  It wasn't you. It was a handicapped guy. I'm really not too worried about finding a place of practice, because my bedroom will suffice for now. I have come along way considering it was less than 4 years ago that I had experienced a psychological death that resulted in a spiritual practice. Yoga was just one aspect of my growth and luckily I had a great teacher to help me integrate my experience.
                      • Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

                        Wed, January 7, 2009 - 11:34 AM
                        <<<I thought the concept of a future-anything was taught as an illusion, and the influence of the past on the present, equally an illusion...>>>

                        This seems to be a, or a couple of, misconceptions common among Westerners new to Buddhism. Nowhere in all of Buddhism is it taught that anything is an illusion. (Other than illusions, I guess.) What is taught is that things are illusory. That is, they are similar to illusions. Nowhere is it denied that phenomena exist. They do. The issue is HOW do they exist? What is the nature of their existence?

                        To hold the view that nothing exists and all is an illusion is termed nihilism in Buddhism. To hold the view that there is at least some thing or things that are solid, immutable and unchanging is termed eternalism. What the Buddha taught was dependent origination, a middle way between these two extremes.
                      • Re: Ganesh ( Ganapati ): a non-argument

                        Wed, January 7, 2009 - 11:55 AM
                        <<<You have no evidence of any future Buddhas. Much less their names. >>>

                        Here is how one person arrived at evidence of the future buddha Maitreya:

                        <<<Asanga was born in the region of Purusapura, Peshawar, the present Kashmir in the 4th century. His birth had been predicted by Buddha Shakyamuni, who announced that about 9 hundred years after his parinirvana, the venerable Asanga would appear in this world to protect the teachings of the Mahayana. His younger brother was no other than Vasubandhu. Their mother, Prasannasila, from Brahmin caste and a former nun had made the vow to give birth to two sons whom she would rear to help spread and strengthen the teachings of the Buddha, particularly the Abhidharma, which had been in a period of decline after the destruction of a great part of the library of Nalanda university by a devastating fire.

                        Asanga took monastic vows, studied the tripitaka of the Theravada and the Mahayana, and pursued his search for a definite understanding of ultimate reality by entering the path of the tantras. During an initiation, at the moment of tossing a flower on a mandala indicating the karmic link between the deity and the initiatee, Asanga's flower fell on the field of Buddha Maitreya. Consequently, Asanga decided to meditate on Buddha Maitreya. He journeyed to the mountain called Riwo Tchakang, at the Indian Tibetan border, and sat down to meditate in seclusion.

                        After three years without result, he felt very depressed and left his cave. On his way he saw a pigeon leaving its nest through a small hole in the rocks. Noticing how that hole had been worn smooth by the feathers of generations of pigeons, Asanga was inspired to more diligence and returned to his practice. After three more years of fruitless meditation, he again felt like giving up. On his way to town he met a man who was rubbing an iron bar with a smooth cloth. Upon asking the man what he was doing, he was told that he was making a needle! So much diligence for such a small worldly aim encouraged Asanga to return to his retreat place once more.

                        After 12 years of meditation, he still had not met Maitreya. Desperate and discouraged, he again left his retreat place and on the way to the next town, he passed a sick old dog on the side of the street. The dog's hind part was paralyzed and eaten by worms. Although the animal tried to attack him, Asanga only felt overwhelming compassion. He thought of removing the worms, but realized that he would squeeze them to death with his fingers. Therefore he decided to remove them with his tongue. He knelt down, closed his eyes, unable to bear the sight of the dog's wounded flesh, lowered his head and - touched the dusty ground. He opened his eyes and saw Maitreya in front of him.

                        Asanga, surprised, asked him why he hadn't appeared earlier. Maitreya answered: « I have been with you since the very beginning, but your mind was not open enough to see me. Now, because of your great genuine compassion, your karmic obscurations have been purified, and you are able to see me. »

                        They left in order to introduce Maitreya to the town's people. But none was able to see Maitreya, only an old woman perceived one of Maitreya's feet. And so Asanga understood what it meant to be veiled by mental obscurations. Without great compassion and understanding, karmic obscurations could not be dispelled.

                        Asanga's perception was now purified, and he experienced the pure dimension of Tushita, the dwelling place of Maitreya. There he received from Maitreya the « Five Great Treatises of Maitreya. » Returning with them to our world, he taught them widely. >>>

                        www.bibliotheque-dhagpo-kagyu.org/e...hp

  • May I point out that the use of the word "Hinayana" to refer to the Theravada school of Buddhism - as opposed to a specific phase of Dharma/Dhamma development, when it would be in lower-case as "hinayana" - is insulting?
    • Theravada vs. Hinayana

      Wed, January 7, 2009 - 4:08 PM
      I cannot speak for others use of the term.
      I know that "hinayana" can be understood as a pejorative.
      Insult happens in the mind of the person hearing the word.

      That said, I'll make just one point: In the "Tenets" literature of
      Buddhist Philosophy, Hinayana is a term applying to many
      sub-schools of Vaibashika and Sautrantika systems relying
      on the Pali canon. Theravada is the last remaining sub-school
      of a once very vibrant Hinayana. Philosophic discussion of various
      "Hinayana" positions are not intended as criticism, rather they are
      an ongoing debate, and not aimed at Theravada. The Hinayana
      that is being debated for all intents and purposes no longer exists
      except as a philosophy.

      Likewise, the debates also involve ancient non-Buddhist schools
      of thought that don't exist at present, but they do exist in other forms
      such as vedanta, new-ageism, Scientific-Americanism :-) ...

      Within the Mahayana, debate concerns Cittamatra, Madhyamaka
      and their various sub-schools.

      Debate again is not insulting, but a valid method of seeking under the
      general heading of "analytical meditation."
      • Re: Theravada vs. Hinayana

        Wed, January 7, 2009 - 5:45 PM
        I take your point, but "Hinayana" referring to schools of thought originated primarily as a term used by the Mahasanghika schools in the formation of what is now Mahayana to differentiate themselves as better.

        I'm not trying to start a flame war, and I hope that I'm not being oversensitive. My point is that - *when applied to Theravada* - the term is perceived as pejorative by Theravadins, that's all.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Theravada vs. Hinayana

          Wed, January 7, 2009 - 6:02 PM
          But the Mahayanists DO consider their way "better" than Hinayana, because it has "higher" teachings that complement the Hinayana teaching. They believe they have everything in Hinayana, plus more, so it is natural for them to conceive of their way as greater. This conception is unavoidable if you look at the Mahayana texts. For what it's worth, some of the "Hinayana" called the Mahayanists heretics.
          • Re: Theravada vs. Hinayana

            Wed, January 7, 2009 - 7:53 PM
            I agree that the Hinayana should not be used as a synonym for Theravada.
            I do not think that a flame war is happening on this thread where this topic
            is concerned.

            What Ryan says is *also* true. What makes mahayana "maha" is the scope
            its view, methods and the capacity if its practitioners... Where dialectic is
            concerned, it is said that hinayanists cannot understand or cope with the
            mahayana view. I can confirm this expeientially: I know a Thai mahapra--
            a true pali scholar-monk-- who has studied bodhicitta and emptiness as
            presented in mahayana. He says that it is interesting, he appreciates it,
            but doesn't understand. He's not calling us heretics, but he doesn't get it.
            And this guy is not short in the brains department at all!

            On the other hand, there have been plenty of Buddhist "holy wars" throughout
            history-- replete with bloodshed over fine points of doctrine.
          • Re: Theravada vs. Hinayana

            Wed, January 7, 2009 - 9:35 PM
            Perhaps the error lays then in assuming that "higher" = "better." One is "higher" only in the sense of being at a developmental level, in which the higher level (e.g. mahayana) includes and extends the lower level (e.g. hinayana).

            Its like studying math. Calculus is higher than trigonometry, which is higher than algebra. That doesn't mean that trig is "better" than algebra, but it means the latter is the basis of the former. Mastering algebra becomes the basis on which one learns trigonometry, which becomes the basis for calculus, which becomes in turn the basis for even "higher mathematics." Similarly to me it would seem to be the case with regard to the three turnings of the dharma wheel, hinayana, mahayana and vajrayana. It is appropriate that all are available to beings according to what may best serve them in terms of their respective spiritual evolution.

            This also would suggest that it is a good thing that various schools make the various levels of Buddha Dharma available to their students. None are "better" or "worse," or "lesser" or "more", but instead all are equally skillful means appropriate to different students.
            • Re: Theravada vs. Hinayana

              Wed, January 7, 2009 - 10:08 PM
              Yes, that would be correct.

              It is also true to say that the different vehicles
              are holographic in the sense that they reflect
              each other. What is implied in one, is explicit
              in another.
              • K
                K
                offline 140
                Re Mark on this thread:
                "It is also true to say that the different vehicles are holographic in the sense that they reflect each other."

                Yes, this is certainly true, and true at all levels. That is an excellent, useful, and exact way to put it.

                There is an extremely good and helpful wikipedia article on "Theravada and Mahayana", which I have yesterday quoted on tribe Crossroads of Religion.

                Given the above discussion, that text is now most relevant here, and a significant part of this wikipedia article / WBSC statement follows.

                By all means, feel free to support ( or otherwise engage ) the Buddhist post on tribe Crossroads of Religion. There is very very little Buddhist input to the discussion there, Theravada or Mahayana. I have definitely gotten the ball rolling at the following web URL, and you are all welcome to contribute. It is after all, a crossroads of religion, and Buddhadharma is global and very much at the crossroads. It is evident.

                Sarva mangalam! May All Beings Benefit!

                In Mahayana service,
                KT



                religiouscrossroads.tribe.net/thr...df5b

                Re: Re A Moral Statement : "I am a non-theist. " So was Sakyamuni Buddha. So is the Dalai Lama.
                Yesterday, 3:07 PM

                See Point three of
                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basi...d_Mahayana

                "The Basic Points Unifying the Theravada and the Mahayana is an important Buddhist Ecumenical statement created in 1967 during the First Congress of the World Buddhist Sangha Council (WBSC), where its founder Secretary-General, the late Venerable Pandita Pimbure Sorata Thera, requested the Ven. Walpola Rahula to present a concise formula for the unification of all the different buddhist traditions. This text was then unanimously approved by the Council."


                1. The Buddha is our only Master (teacher and guide).

                2. We take refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha (the Three Jewels).

                3. We do not believe that this world is created and ruled by a God.

                4. We consider that the purpose of life is to develop compassion for all living beings without discrimination and to work for their good, happiness, and peace; and to develop wisdom (prajña) leading to the realization of Ultimate Truth.

                5. We accept the Four Noble Truths, namely dukha, the arising of dukha, the cessation of dukha, and the path leading to the cessation of du?kha; and the law of cause and effect (pratityasamutpada).

                6. All conditioned things (samskara) are impermanent (anitya) and dukha, and that all conditioned and unconditioned things (dharma) are without self (anatma) (see trilaksana).

                7. We accept the thirty-seven qualities conducive to enlightenment (bodhipaksadharma) as different aspects of the Path taught by the Buddha leading to Enlightenment.

                8. There are three ways of attaining bodhi or Enlightenment: namely as a disciple (sravaka), as a pratyekabuddha and as a samyaksambuddha (perfectly and fully enlightened Buddha). We accept it as the highest, noblest, and most heroic to follow the career of a Bodhisattva and to become a samyaksambuddha in order to save others.

                9. We admit that in different countries there are differences regarding Buddhist beliefs and practices. These external forms and expressions should not be confused with the essential teachings of the Buddha.


                . . . . Also, from the same page

                Expansion of the Formula

                Ven. Walpola Sri Rahula in 1981 offered an alternative to the Nine-point formula above restating it as follows:


                * Whatever our sects, denominations or systems, as Buddhists we all accept the Buddha as our Master who gave us the Teaching.

                * We all take refuge in the Triple Jewel: the Buddha, our Teacher; the Dhamma, his teaching; and the Sangha, the Community of holy ones. In other words, we take refuge in the Teacher, the Teaching and the Taught.

                * Whether Theravada or Mahayana, we do not believe that this world is created and ruled by a god at his will.

                * Following the example of the Buddha, our Teacher, who is embodiment of Great Compassion (mahakaruna) and Great Wisdom (mahaprajna), we consider that the purpose of life is to develop compassion for all living beings without discrimination and to work for their good, happiness and peace; and to develop wisdom leading to the realization of Ultimate Truth.

                * We accept the Four Noble Truths taught by the Buddha, namely, Dukkha, the fact that our existence in this world is in predicament, is impermanent, imperfect, unsatisfactory, full of conflict; Samudaya, the fact that this state of affairs is due to our egoistic selfishness based on the false idea of self; Nirodha, the fact that there is definitely the possibility of deliverance, liberation, freedom from this predicament by the total eradication of the egoistic selfishness; and Magga, the fact that this liberation can be achieved through the Middle Path which is eight-fold, leading to the perfection of ethical conduct (sila), mental discipline (samadhi) and wisdom (panna).

                * We accept the universal law of cause and effect taught in the Paticcasamuppada (Skt. pratityasamutpada; Conditioned Genesis or Dependent Origination), and accordingly we accept that everything is relative, interdependent and interrelated and nothing is absolute, permanent and everlasting in this universe.

                * We understand, according to the teaching of the Buddha, that all conditioned things (samkhara) are impermanent (anicca) and imperfect and unsatisfactory (dukkha), and all conditioned and unconditioned things (dhamma) are without self (anatta).

                * We accept the Thirty-seven Qualities conducive to Enlightenment (bodhipakkhiyadhamma) as different aspects of the Path taught by the Buddha leading to Enlightenment, namely:
                o Four Forms of Presence of Mindfulness (Pali: satipatthana; Skt. smrtyupasthana);
                o Four Right Efforts (Pali. sammappadhana; Skt. samyakpradhana);
                o Four Bases of Supernatural Powers (Pali. iddhipada; Skt. rddhipada);
                o Five Faculties (indriya: Pali. saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi, panna; Skt. sraddha, virya, smrti, samadhi, prajna);
                o Five Powers (bala, same five qualities as above);
                o Seven Factors of Enlightenment (Pali. bojjhanga; Skt. bobhyanga);
                o Eight-fold Noble Path (Pali. ariyamagga; Skt. aryamarga).

                * There are three ways of attaining Bodhi or Enlightenment according to the ability and capacity of each individual: namely, as a Sravaka (disciple), as a Pratyekabuddha (Individual Buddha) and as a Samyaksambuddha (Perfectly and Fully Enlightened Buddha). We accept it as the highest, noblest and most heroic to follow the career of a Boddhisattva and to become a Samyksambuddha in order to save others. But these three states are on the same Path, not on different paths. In fact, the Sandhinirmocana-sutra, a well-known important Mahayana sutra, clearly and emphatically says that those who follow the line of Sravakayana (Vehicle of Disciples) or the line of Pratyekabuddha-yana (Vehicle of Individual Buddhas) or the line of Tathagatas (Mahayana) attain the supreme Nirvana by the same Path, and that for all of them there is only one Path of Purification (visuddhi-marga) and only one Purification (visuddhi) and no second one, and that they are not different paths and different purifications, and that Sravakayana and Mahayana constitute One Vehicle One Yana (ekayana) and not distinct and different vehicles or yanas.

                * We admit that in different countries there are differences with regard to the ways of life of Buddhist monks, popular Buddhist beliefs and practices, rites and rituals, ceremonies, customs and habits. These external forms and expressions should not be confused with the essential teachings of the Buddha.


                ------------ end wikipedia article ---------- thannnnk you wikipedia --------------

                • K
                  K
                  offline 140
                  Re Mark answering Ralph:
                  "Quite the contrary, Ralph.

                  Buddhism, unlike Discordianism, posits specific views
                  according to four philosophic systems. Also, Buddhists must
                  be able to demonstrate that an assertion meets criteria for
                  being Buddhist. So the four dharma seals are to be found
                  in the scriptures, the words of the Buddha Shakyamuni."

                  Also, there are rules for debate in the commentaries:
                  the shastras. What constitutes a valid congnition is
                  clearly defined. "

                  Yes. Well said, Mark. Buddhadharma *is* well-formed, clear and self-consistent at all levels. It has been from the beginning.

                  There is a profound integrity and coherence to the Buddhist teachings.

                  As for Ralph, I've had to deal with him a lot over time on tribe Meditation. He's high overhead, but responding to him helps evolve public communication about authentic Buddhadharma.

                  Guru Sakyamuni clearly emphasized the primary importance of direct personal experience, and meditation practice, and taught valuable methods for people to practice. It would be helpful if more Buddhists would help develop the communication on tribe Meditation ( see my tribe list for a direct reference to this tribe ). The opportunity is on. Consider this a direct invitation to participate in the broader open community of meditation-oriented people.

                  Best,

                  KT
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    K:"As for Ralph, I've had to deal with him a lot over time on tribe Meditation. He's high overhead, but responding to him helps evolve public communication about authentic Buddhadharma. "

                    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psyc...projection


                    Hey man, just a thought..........
                    • K
                      K
                      offline 140

                      San Francisco Bay Area April 2009: major tantric Buddhist empowerment cycle for Thirteen Golden Dharmas

                      Keywords : tantric Buddhist empowerment, San Francisco Bay Area, Sakya lineage, Ewam Choden Buddhist Center, Ven. Lama Kunga Ngor Rinpoche, His Eminence Thartse Khen Rinpoche, deity yogas ( Vajrayogini, Hevajra, Red and White Tara, Black Manjusri, Amitayus, Vajrapani, Simhamukha, Garuda, Simhanada Avalokitesvara ).

                      Summary : a major tantric Buddhist empowerment cycle in the San Francisco Bay Area this April. This may well include several initiations of Great Goddess Vajrayogini.

                      N.B. I do not represent this teacher or this lineage. Please contact the center in advance of empowerments if you are new to Buddhist tantra.

                      Sarva mangalam. Siddhi rastu!

                      KT

                      From:
                      www.ewamchoden.org/

                      "Ewam Choden Tibetan Buddhist Center is proud to announce the upcoming visit of His Eminence Thartse Khen Rinpoche this Spring 2009.

                      "H.E. Nhawang Sonam Chhyokden Lama Bista, also known as Thartse Khen Rinpoche, is the 77th throne holder of Ngor Ewam Choden monastery. The Thartse lineage belongs to the Ngor tradition of the Sakya lineage. It dates back to its founder Ngorchen Kunga Zangpo and is the lineage of our venerable resident teacher, Lama Kunga Rinpoche.

                      "His Eminence studied in Puruwala Sakya Institute for six years under the tutelage of the great scholar H.E. Khenchen Appey Rinpoche before completing his final years in Sakya College . His ritual training was done at Ngor Monastery in Manduwala.

                      "H.E. Thartse Khen Rinpoche shares his duty of running the Ngorpa Centre with the present H.E. Luding Khen Rinpoche. Rinpoche frequently travels overseas to Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia and Hong Kong to give teachings and spread the Buddhadharma.

                      "His Eminence will start his first US tour with extensive teachings and empowerments at Ewam Choden. He will then visit our sister centers Sakya Kachod Choling in Washington, and Tsechen Kunchab Ling in New York. please keep checking the web for updates."


                      Preliminary Schedule
                      Arrival: April 6th

                      Friday 9th (7pm)
                      PARTING FROM THE FOUR ATTACHMENTS,
                      based on teachings of Sachen Kunga Nyingpo

                      Saturday 10th (4pm)
                      HEVAJRA - Preliminary Empowerment

                      Sunday 11th (2pm)
                      HEVAJRA - Main Empowerment

                      Friday 17th (6PM), Saturday 18th (12 noon), Sunday 19th (12 noon)

                      THIRTEEN GOLDEN DHARMAS of the Sakya-pa

                      Saturday 25th

                      Teaching: THE LAM DRE - ITS HISTORY AND ESSENCE (2pm)

                      Empowerment: WHITE TARA (6pm)

                      Sunday 26th (3pm)

                      LONG LIFE Empowerment


                      Ewam Choden Tibetan Buddhist Center is located in Kensington, a residential community immediately north of Berkeley, California. Under the guidance of the accomplished tantric master Lama Kunga Thartse Rinpoche the center offers a wide variety of activities. Ewam Choden was one of the first Dharma Centers established on the West Coast, founded and continuously overseen by Lama Kunga Rinpoche since 1973.

                      254 Cambridge Avenue
                      Kensington
                      California
                      USA
                      94708
                      • K
                        K
                        offline 140

                        Ralph on this thread tribes.tribe.net/buddhadha...e466f1174:
                        "You have no evidence of any future Buddhas. Much less their names."

                        You have no evidence of any past Buddha's. Much less their practices. "

                        Also Ralph Sat, January 10, 2009:
                        "I am not new to Buddhism."

                        Ralph says there is NO evidence of ANY past Buddhas.
                        Clearly then he rejects the statement that Sakyamuni became a realized Buddha.
                        OR
                        he thinks there was no historical Sakyamuni.

                        There certainly was a historical Sakyamuni. He taught for about FIFTY years. We have a tremendous amount of oral teaching from Guru Sakyamuni.

                        Ralph rejects without any evidence and without any line of reasoning that Guru Sakyamuni was a Buddha. But then he would have to know what that meant.

                        It takes one to know one. Sakyamuni Buddha used a lot of reasoning and had a lot of well developed spiritual capabilities.

                        Ralphie has not practiced any of these, since he says the practices of Sakyamuni no longer exist.

                        A complete contradiction. If you haven't done any of the practices of Buddhism, then you are a complete newbie, Ralph. That is what you have proven to all of us, that you know absolutely nothing about the oral statements of Sakyamuni Buddha and that you know absolutely nothing about the practices of Buddhism.

                        I agree with you Ralphie, you know absoultely nothing about any of this.

                        Thanks for playing, Ralphie!

                        KT
                        • I was just stating a fact, that doesn't reveal anything about my past, including whether or not I practice meditation (which I do day and night).

                          See, K, I would rather live the Dharma, than impose it on people. Sorry, but I don't have time to unravel your misperceptions about my knowledge and practice, I simply don't have time. I will just stay silent, which is what I feel inclined to do.
                          • K
                            K
                            offline 140

                            Re Ralph:
                            "I was just stating a fact, that doesn't reveal anything about my past, including whether or not I practice meditation (which I do day and night). See, K, I would rather live the Dharma,"

                            Let it be known to all that
                            1) Ralph publically and formally rejects all Buddhist refuge, as he has made clear on a non-Buddhist tribe.
                            2) Ralph has contempt for the Dalai Lama, and would never ever attend any talk given by the Dalai Lama at a university, again as he himself has said.
                            2 Ralph believes that anyone who practices more than one deity yoga ( as indeed the Dalai Lama does and most of us tantric Buddhists also do ) is a psychotic and mentally ill, as he has stated in attacking me on tribe Meditation. But this is of course a general statement, a general slander of basically all tantric Buddhists in a large public forum.

                            I have tried to reason with Ralph on tribe Meditation and so forth. Doesn't work.

                            There are some basic rules for tribe.net communication, such as not calling persons or groups of people psychotic or mentally ill.

                            After some months, I brought up this issue of Ralph with the moderator of meditation.tribe.net via personal email, and within ten minutes he delisted Ralph from tribe Meditation.

                            Ralph claims to be an academic student of muggle psychology, but his public documented "communication" on tribe.net has shown him to be a complete troll, and now a banished troll.

                            My seventh grade English treacher in Cincinnatti would have flunked him in dialectics and reasoning! Hurling vicious insults and irrationally attempting to smear world class liberal arts teachers and scholars such as the Dalai Lama ( as being psychotic ) is anything but psychology.

                            Given the above, it is of course most amusing that Ralphie would dare to show up on tribe Buddhadharma, especially given the fact that for many of us worldwide, the Dalai Lama is a Buddhist teacher of Greatest Significance, and such spurious unfounded attacks by Ralphie the Delisted Troll are as laughable as they are mean-spirited.

                            Ralphie the Troll has no respect for Guru Shakyamuni Buddha, and offers his unfounded statement that Buddhist refuge is an impediment to meditation practice. Yet he has offered nothing better.

                            He is against all mantra practice, as being "scientifically unproven". So he rejects most Hindu practice as well as all Buddhist mantras and Buddhist practice altogether. In other words, his "dharma" is to be against all dharma, Hindu and Buddhist.

                            Ralphie the Troll has no respect for the Dalai Lama and thinks that deity yoga practitioners such as the Dalai Lama are basically psychotic, yet he has offered no one better as an alternative.

                            Ralphie the Troll has stated publically that I am some kind of "liar", but he has not said in what sense, nor has he offered any evidence whatsoever.

                            This is what his approach to, <cough cough> "living the Dharma" amounts to. A "meditation" on irrationality, failure to think straight or offer cogent arguments, and spiteful words against the Dalai Lama and rejection of all levels and kinds of Buddhadharma, all the way back to the original teaxching of Guru Shakyamuni Buddha. It Is Evident.

                            I personally am glad to be in the company of Guru Shakyamuni Buddha and the Dalai Lama as publically attacked by Ralphie the Troll. I consider it a good recommendation.

                            As it is said,
                            "Listen to the fool's contempt. It is a kingly title!"

                            And what does that make you, Ralphie?

                            You've thrown yourself off a cliff, and you think you've learned how to fly. You'll find out where your path leads when you blindly jump to Big Conclusions in this way. Ta Ta!

                            KT

                            Long Live The Mahayana!


                            • Uh, yea k (the double edged personality) dagger, you do lie. You are claiming to know what I believe in. Like I would ever share my beliefs with someone who I believe lies about his credentials in Buddhist practice. You have no evidence of being certified in anything except for your own word, and until you can show us otherwise, I will look at you as just another insane, keyboard commanding weirdo on tribe.net.

                              Just to clear things up for others. I practice meditation at A Tibetan Buddhist Temple. I don't agree with everything any religion says, but Buddhism is the closest religion that offers me a tangible practice.

                              Another one K, I have seen the Dalai Lama at Emory University in October of 2007, for the summit on religion, tolerance and peacebuilding. A private Conferance of which I was invited to attend in which tickets would cost more than you probably make in a week of your online "begging bowl" for giving online empowerments and "important teachings".

                              As far as insulting my education, well, you may think that your senior year (7th grade education) is above my college education, but that is your opinion and you are entiteled to it. Regarding logical fallacies, if anyone really gave a rats ass about you or your post, they would examine the entire list of them in just one of your 4 page post. You post 4 pages of the same stuff because your neurosis causes redundant speach. Same points explained in different verb conjugations. That is also why it is hard for you to let go of "perpetrators" like me, because you are thinking about me wayyy too much. Get a life dude. You are obviously falling into compulsive thinking.

                              And English grammar. Don't make me laugh dude. You even misspelled some words in the sentence that you wrote regarding you as a better linguist. Now that's a paradox! That's a lie and that's a delussion. Maya fooled you into thinking that you could trample my character without getting called out.

                              I see that I was booted from tribe meditation and I contacted the moderator. You were bragging about getting me booted. Funny, you can't win an argument, so you tattle on me. So now you are an imature weirdo "spiritual doctor".

                              And yes, your behavior does imply neurosis. If I get booted for saying this, than fine. I am sure you are undiagnosed, so you don't have to believe me, just go get checked out.

                              Funny again that you call me a troll. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! You don't even show a picture of yourself, and you haven't told us who your teachers are or where you practice.

                              I will be back on tribe again in a few weeks, and probably will read more redundant 5 page diatribes on your superiority over me. that's fine, just roots the fools out of my life, so you are doing me a favor. Considering you spend way more time trying to make yourself look good on tribe, it seems that this is all you have, and I wouldn't want to take it away from you. Until you get a real life, enjoy lying about me and the things you THINK you "know" about me. Take care, and I hope you get better.

                              -Ralph

                              • I was hoping someone would take the high road here.
                                • I apologize for stooping down to that level. It was not very Buddhist like, and therefore I am going to let go of it all right now. I want to call a truce with this person, if for nothing else, than to not make Buddhism look like a divisive religion in which people claim to be superior over one another.

                                  So K, I am done with the arguing. Let's move on with all of this, and if we don't agree on certain points, let's be men about it and not accuse each other of ignorance.

                                  I will be back soon, and when I come back, I will post something of relevance to Buddhism and not any specific person.
                                  • K
                                    K
                                    offline 140
                                    Re Ralph:
                                    "Like I would ever share my beliefs with someone who I believe lies about his credentials in Buddhist practice."

                                    Ralph is welscome to believe that anyone or everyone lies, on this tribe or any others.

                                    He does more than that however. He PUBLICALLY ACCUSES people of lying, without evidence or proof.

                                    This is of course contrary to The Ten Precepts.

                                    Ralph rejects Buddhist Refuge ( including The Ten Precepts ), Mahayana practice, and all mantra practice. He has said so. He has said that Buddhist Refuge is ( somehow ) an obstacle to meditation, and that he would never ever go to see the Dalai Lama at a campus event.

                                    Further, he states ( without evidence ) that someone who practices several deity yoga practices is or becomes psychotic.

                                    This is not evidence based reasoning, nor has he begun to make any points against Guru Sakyamuni, the Dalai Lama, mantra practice, or myself for that matter.

                                    Re Ralph:
                                    "I want to call a truce with this person, if for nothing else, than to not make Buddhism look like a divisive religion in which people claim to be superior over one another."

                                    Sorry Ralph. You got that completely wrong too. Quite the opposite. A pseudo-Buddhist / anti-Buddhist ( or pseudo-psychologist ) such as yourself cannot make the Buddhist Path look "divisive". You're not on the team. You're in all respects anti-Buddhist.

                                    You claim that I "lie about my credentials". How would you know that I have not completed ten thousand hours of Buddhist mantra? Why claim this type of very real credential is a lie? You haven't been following me around in person for the last three decades. Your generalized attacks are as ridiculous as they are ignorant, and
                                    This Is Actionable.
                                    And these irrational personal attacks are shown to occur on this tribe, as well as on tribe Meditation, where Ralphie the Troll has been delisted for anti-social behavior.

                                    You can't call a truce when you've been defeated, Ralphie. It's too late. You started a flame war, and you lost, here as elsewhere. And we all have your number. Give it up.

                                    KT

                                    • Wow, just when I think this thread (and/or the people in it) have hit bottom, astounding new lows are achieved.
                                      • Can't we just let this one die a peaceful death?

                                        Is there really any point to continuing to hurl abuse at each other?

                                        Please everybody, just let it go...
                                        • K
                                          K
                                          offline 140

                                          Re Tulku CP to KT on tribe Tibetan Buddhism:
                                          "I don't believe you are a liar. Just make mistakes like most humans."

                                          I appreciate that, Tulku CP. In a word, yes.

                                          In fact, my transmissions, teachers, practices and reference books are far better documented than any other tantric Buddhist on tribe.net. The ten thousand hour mantra "flight hours" I claim is something definite, either it is a valid statement or not.

                                          If not, I would be making a serious lie and therefore breaking high tantric vows to, ohh, about sixty two major gurus ( many of them principal lineage holders, abbots, and so forth ). Anyway, it is a basic claim of relevance and credibility, particularly given the seriousness of upholding tantric vows.

                                          What is surprising is that on tribe Buddhism I keep hearing that I am not Buddhist at all, from for example from Mickey Mouse, who is in fact a former moderator of Tribe Atheism and a pronounced anti-Buddhist.

                                          There are a fair number of such people to deal with. I sometimes work across fifty or more tribes to put out a Buddhist announcement or teaching, and there are some determined trolls out there.

                                          Of course, trolls come with the territory, and that is fine. Having a long running argument with a Chinese Communist / anti- Dalai Lama guy is not troll fighting. It's just reasoned discussion with someone who prefers repeated genocide to feudal Buddhism. That's not the problem.

                                          The problem is that in working with the public one has to establish and maintain some definite credibility, and cross-tribe troll attacks can become serious.

                                          There is an anti-Buddhist troll on tribe Buddhadharma, named Ralphie.

                                          He needs to be dealt with. Specifically, his unsupported attacks on a Buddhist tribe set an extremely bad precedent. Left unanswered, these attacks clearly open the way to attacks on all Buddhists on all Buddhist tribes and/ or Buddhist posts on tribe.net.

                                          Where I seek to build useful and helpful bridges of communication between numerous tribes, Ralphie is determined to pollute and destroy such communication.

                                          See for example
                                          meditationclub.tribe.net/threa...33aa59
                                          and
                                          tribes.tribe.net/buddhadha...3e466f1174

                                          Ralphie has the right to be anti-Shakyamuni Buddha, to sneer at the Dalai Lama and speak against mantra practice in general. I don't have a problem with any of that per se, any more than I have a problem discussing the relative merits of Buddhist societies in Asia with someone who supports genocidal Communism in China, Tibet, Cambodia.

                                          It's all about free speech and open discussion to compare perspectives, right?

                                          But there is another, more fundamental problem: laying false charges, bearing false witness, slander and libel against others in a public forum, where political and cultural issues need to be thrashed out. That destroys the basis of communication altogether, and prevents one side from putting forward their case.

                                          When I put forward a case for the Dalai Lama, or anything else that is classical Mahayana, and responds ( as above ) to vicious ad hominem attacks that I am ( somehow ) a liar, this must not be viewed as a heated personal argument.

                                          Instead, it must be understood that the person who makes the claim or attack against another's integrity is required to back that up with some evidence or reasoning. Which of course Ralphie never does.

                                          Ralphie is a troll, and he has been delisted from tribe Meditation, as he should be, for being a vicious antisocial type. We have seen this from him repeatedly, specifically that he makes a general claim that I am in some unspecified sense a "liar".

                                          Specifically, see my response as follows:


                                          meditationclub.tribe.net/threa...33aa59


                                          Re: tantric Buddhist empowerments and Ralph the anti social non-psychologist Sat, September 19, 2009 - 2:12 PM
                                          Re Ralph:
                                          "How do you expect anyone to take you serious if you keep lying to people? "

                                          Lying to people about WHAT, Ralph? When? What subject matter? . . . .



                                          Anyway, here is the crux of the argument. When someone makes a personal attack of this kind, it has to be specific, not a general statement like "you are pathological ( or a liar, etc. ) in general, for unspecified reasons."

                                          That is not an argument. That is not a connected series of statements. It's just a slur. The type that, if allowed to proceed, tends to set up more and more vicious personal attacks against ANYONE. And that is contrary to the basic rules of communication and public discourse.

                                          This type of unfounded abuse is wholly contrary to the basic rules of tribe.net, which is about reasoned and reasonable communication, not trash talk. Just as you cannot mix good food with poison, you cannot have healthy public communication with irrational unsupported vicious trash talk.

                                          That is why it is important in certain cases to cry foul and call for examination of some posts and some posters. Some posters are trolls, and some particularly abusive trolls need to be removed from tribes.

                                          Ralphie is a classic example. I have had to repeatedly challenge his hate talk and irrational unsubstantiated attacks on several tribes. It's a fair amount of work, but necessary, and one more way in which I can help tribe.net and people in general. Thus it is a good Mahayana deed to challenge even a small evildoer such as Ralphie.

                                          Also, it is vitally important to defend reasonable Buddhist communication on tribe.net, particularly for the one guy who has done all the massive outreach ( books ,teacher,s events, mantras, etc. ) these last several years, me. If I do not defend my Mahayana outreach posts, these bridges I am building are torn down. It's as simple as that.

                                          If trolls like Ralphie are allowed to flourish here and there, then their hate talk posts stand as ugly and dangerous precedents, and over time a host of orcs can cause more and more problems all over the place, and ultimately ruin the basic context of communication.

                                          So, freedom of speech is important and necessary. I support freedom of speech of Communists, Nazis, the Taliban and lesser orcs like Ralphie. But there is a boundary to defend to allow all people to have their say, and that is very simple. When you make a serious charge, you have to back it up.

                                          Nobody here is kingmaker, nobody on tribe.net is judge, jury, and prosecutor.

                                          In public commons like tribe.net, confirmed trolls like Ralphie are condemned out of their own hateful, irrational accusations, particularly when repeated across different tribes. And it is up to the moderator to uphold a reasonable standard of discourse, more or less free of irrational hate talk.

                                          That is the basic point. I shouldn't have to break this down to such an elementary level, but the point keeps getting lost.

                                          Fighting trolls is not an aggressive or antisocial behavior. It is a public service. And public service is what I'm here for.

                                          You don't see this kind of problem on tribe Yoga Teachers. There I am treated with real respect. There I am engaging in respectful and helpful dialogue. I'm not pushing a dogma per se. I'm here to build the bridges of communication, as I said, and that is only possible with real communication and real mutual respect.

                                          But there are those for whom this is never acceptable, those who will abuse others with real emotional violence and unwarranted attacks, like Ralphie the Troll. They just don't know when to stop. It's an obsessive-compulsive disorder, and so a small number of evil-doers can really cause problems all over the map. Otherwise we all pay the price, and we all fail to have the simple straightforward communications commons that is so important for human civilization.

                                          If you want free speech and functioning communications commons, you have to invest in it. I have. Everybody here can see that. Nobody but nobody builds bridges of communication on tribe.net like I do. Period.

                                          But the overhead can become basically intolerable. Trolls are an ever-present danger. They need to be flagged.

                                          It's actually easy to defenestrate trolls, to "throw them out the window". Sometimes this is the only reasonable course of action. And of course, it is the standard to which all tribalists agreed to, including the moderators.

                                          My words are clear and easily understood.

                                          Now you know.

                                          KT,
                                          for the public good


                                          • Well man, I am sorry that you see things that way. Anyone who claims to be a guru and is out to get attention should be examined. I have no proof that you are a chaleton, just as I have no proof that you are not. I ask for proof and you attack my character, and that is a perfect example of ad hominem, you know, the very thing you have accused myself of doing. So how are you not a hypocrite in the very least, and at worst, how are you not just displacing our own psyche on others like me?

                                            What I see is a guy that doesn't disclose his identity, cut an paste peoples words and forms sentences out of them and quotes them out of context to an argument. I have been as clear and concise as I could possibly be. It seems that you K, are the only one that has a problem with me and thus when you make the claim that "we" see how 'ralphie,troll, orc, muggle, sorry excuse for a buddhist, sorry excuse for a psychologist and sorry excuse for an opponent', YOU are the only one that sees these things and not anyone else, for no one else has spoken against me in such a harsh manner since I have joined tribe back in 2003.

                                            I have never been harrased by anyone in the way you have been attacking me. I must add that I don't see you as an opponent. I see someone who has a lot of anger and is projecting it onto a scapegoat as myself.You even go around bragging that you had me banned from a tribe that I have been a member of for years. If I am not a "worthy opponent', than why all the fuss? I have done nothing wrong except for questioning your logic and claims of being a guru. You have only taught me one thing as a guru, and that is that anyone can be a guru, no matter how hateful and malicious they behave.

                                            I hope you will pay close attention to my words so that they don't get used out of context again. I am not going to argue with you on the philisiphical topics because you just attack me instead of asking for clarification when you misunderstand my intentions. So, what do we really have to talk about, and why do you keep mentioning my name on other tribes when I have let it go? If your intent on defeating trolls, than what's the point? I haven't even posted much recently, so you are obviously hung up on the past and have the inability to let things go.

                                            Just let it be man.