A refrigerator on the playa

topic posted Tue, July 1, 2008 - 11:53 PM by  Ash of the Dark
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Ice chests just suck. We brought an RV out last year (which we won't be doing again), and the best part of that was having a refrigerator to keep perishables cool throughout our time there. Made for great cooking, and no digestive problems, since we were able to eat stuff our tummies were used to. So, my burning fantasy is that we might be able to take out a small refrigerator like this one:

www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn

and put it in our dome. I know this would probably require some serious power to run continuously, and I am totally ignorant (though I have been learning some cool stuff from this tribe) regarding electronics. I have heard of people powering electrical items off a 12v deep cycle battery, and hooking the battery up to a solar panel, which can recharge it throughout the day, but would it be enough to power a small fridge?

Is such a thing possible? Any answers or advice would be appreciated, as well as alternatives that have worked for you in keeping your perishables cool throughout the week...
posted by:
Ash of the Dark
Los Angeles
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  • Re: A refrigerator on the playa

    Wed, July 2, 2008 - 5:15 PM
    Looking at that product and it's energy listing, it seems to need an average of 36W (assuming my math is good: 318kWh/yr = 871Wh/day = 36Wh/hr).
    So with a 12v battery (inverted to 110v) would draw 3 Amps (but find out the peak current draw - since that's what the inverter needs to be able to handle).
    A typical normal sized battery holds between 50Ah and 80Ah, so that''s about 20 hours of on the battery.

    You'd need a solar panel setup that generates probably three times that (ie 100W) as only 12 hours sunlight, and assume lower power at the start/end of the day. But it's always good to be able to generate more power than required, so you can have some lighting, run that music center, charge camera batteries. So buy what you can afford. Also the price per watt comes down as the panels get bigger.

    So I did a simple Google search: www.google.com/products and it seems you'll have to pay somewhere between $600 and $900 for such a setup.

    BUT... since your refrigerator will be fighting the hot desert, it might use more power, but it get an easier time at night, than at home.

    That search also showed me wind power generators about the same price, that have the potential for generating much more power (eg 400w in 28mph wind), but the wind is sporadic out there.
    Here's one I saw: store.sundancesolar.com/airxwitu.html but there are probably many places better/worse priced, and better/worse wind-power devices. I've not researched them much. I think I should.
    • Re: A refrigerator on the playa

      Sun, July 13, 2008 - 3:21 PM
      I have a small fridge in my camping trailer and I've run it on the inverter. I have a 1750 watt inverter with a 2500 watt surge rating and I have 220AH of batteries. The problem here is that the fridge does not draw constant power, but runs in bursts. It will draw about 1200 watts just as it starts, then drop to 300w until it is at temp, then zero until things warm up again. The battery is done when it cannot supply the surge current needed to start the fridge compressor.

      A 1200 watt startup surge will need a 100 amp spike off the battery, if the battery drops during the startup surge, the inverter will drop out and the compressor will not start, it will just hiccup without cooling at all.

      If you have a single deep cycle 12 volt, it will have around 80ah. That is about 960 watt hours. Inverters are not 100% so you can run a 300 watt compressor in the fridge for about 3 hours, but after the first 1 1/2 hr there will not be enough in the battery to restart the compressor.

      You can only count on full power for a solar panel for 6 to 8 hrs a day. (they need direct sun). The power rating in the energy listing is based on 72 degrees and not being opened much. At burningman my fridge runs 300 watts about 50% of the time. It will do this for 12 hours, then at night it will drop to about 25% of the time. So that is 1800 watt hrs in the day and 900 watt hrs for the night, or 2100 watt / hrs per day. Let's say you get 100AH of 12 volt battereis for the ight, You have to supply the recharging wattage while you run the daytime load and you have to do this in 8 hrs. you loose something in the charger, so you would need the entire 2100 watt/hrs for the load and another 200 watt/hrs for the charger, or 2300 whrs in the 8 hrs that the panels will be working at power. That would be about 300 watts worth of solar panels.

      About $1,500 worth of panels, about $400 for the batteries, $200 for the charge controller and $500 for an inverter...

      This is why you don't see a lot of people doing this...
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: A refrigerator on the playa

        Mon, July 14, 2008 - 6:50 AM
        That would be about 300 watts worth of solar panels.

        About $1,500 worth of panels, about $400 for the batteries, $200 for the charge controller and $500 for an inverter... .....

        yes it is expensive. and even finding a better bargin does not cut it much. 2 - 105 amp walmart deep cycles will run you close to 200, a 20 amp controller can be had for around 100. my 2500 watt inverter was 189 at ckeckers auto.

        sooooooo, what i did was buy a norcold ac/dc freezer /fridge . it is only the size of a cooler, has a very effecient danfoss compressor. it only pulls 80 watts. while running at 2 degrees even on a 100 degree day.

        not sure what the start surge it. but the 1500 watt inverter handles it fine.

        cost $400. yes. that is 3x what one of the cheapies is but, well worth it.
  • Re: A refrigerator on the playa

    Thu, July 3, 2008 - 7:33 AM
    A propane fridge might work better ... I trust 12V recharged on solar to run our camp lights, but I'd not trust my food storage to it. And you'd still need 12V to run the controls apparently. Pricey buggers, I looked them up.
    This site seemed to explain a few things:

    www.rv-coach.com/current_c...etail.html

    I am sure a fridge can be done, but I don't think it can be done cheaply.

    Personally, I'd rather wrangle ice chests; we have it down to a fine art. Cast-iron tummies and a life in a semi-truck have prepared us to exist on camp food. MyLarry is a trucker, I have learned much about 12V appliances. Avoid thermal coolers like the plague.
  • Re: A refrigerator on the playa

    Fri, July 4, 2008 - 12:25 PM
    If you end up using an ice chest, you can put dry ice on the bottom and then your food and put regular ice pack in gallon ziplocks on top of the food. The ice on top will melt but the dry ice will refreeze it. Make sure you have a separate ice chest cuz your food will be frozen too.
    • Re: A refrigerator on the playa

      Sun, July 6, 2008 - 1:49 PM
      >If you end up using an ice chest, you can put dry ice on the bottom and then your food and put regular ice pack in gallon ziplocks on top of the food. The ice on top will melt but the dry ice will refreeze it. Make sure you have a separate ice chest cuz your food will be frozen too.

      that seems silly. if the icemelt touches the dry ice, it evaporates, and it loses effectiveness. if the icemelt refreezes at the bottom, it freezes all your food together. either way the refreeze process is costing energy. note: i havent tried this, just doesnt make sense. wouldnt it work better to keep the dry ice above the ice, as the cold will go down, keeping the ice frozen in the first place?

      think ill get into dry ice next year, no time for it this year. but a freezer would be nice.
      • Re: A refrigerator on the playa

        Sun, July 6, 2008 - 5:21 PM
        eplaya.burningman.com/viewtopic.php

        Everything you ever wanted to know about dry ice, or links to it.
        • Re: A refrigerator on the playa

          Thu, July 17, 2008 - 6:12 PM
          We mastered the dri ice, ice, food rotation method years ago. We're
          able to keep our perishables for the whole week. One thing that really
          helps is a "super cooler" for the dri ice. I have an old Omaha Steaks
          shipper that I mounted in a wood frame, added extra foam layers
          and used Great Stuff to seal it up with. This holds eight standard
          blocks and lasts about six days. This in turn will preserve the
          regular ice for another two to three days.

          It's a heck of a lot cheaper than solar, propane, deep cycle,
          etc.

          Another option is to get lucky in a junk yard and find a fresh,
          totalled camper with an intact propane fridge. You'll need
          muscle to extract it and some work to adapt it to standalone
          use.
  • Re: A refrigerator on the playa

    Mon, August 18, 2008 - 1:13 PM
    There's a cheap, no-power-needed solution to desert refrigeration, called the Zeer pot. Basically it consists of two nesting earthenware pots, with sand packed in the thin cavity between them. Water is poured into the sand and evaporative cooling keeps veggies or other food cool and fresh inside the smaller pot. It works best in dry, hot climates (sound familiar?), and only requires a water supply for operation.

    www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2004/...on.htm

    I've been wanting to get one of these out to the playa for years now, as it seems absolutely perfect. But I don't have access to a large kiln to make my own, and I can't find them for sale ANYWHERE in the US. I've also never seen them at the burn, which seems odd.

    Of course while sufficient for vegetable freshness, the temperatures reached are probably not cold enough to produce an icy beer, and may not be cool enough for safe meat and dairy storage. But that's why I want to get my hands on one, to try it out and see.
  • Re: A refrigerator on the playa

    Mon, April 6, 2009 - 9:23 PM
    Damn excellent advice, thanks to all! We tried the dry-ice technique for '08, with good results - we just had to make sure the ice chest lid was SECURELY closed... it helped to duct-tape it shut when we got the stuff out that we needed. The Engel fridge/freezer line looks attractive and convenient; I'll just have to really save up.
  • Sam
    Sam
    offline 0

    Re: A refrigerator on the playa

    Tue, August 4, 2009 - 10:44 PM
    I'm so glad you some one else is working on this! My playa project for this year is a solar thermally driven propane fridge. I got the fridge for free on Craigslist (a lucky find because he thought it was broken, but $50-100 for one isnt uncommon), and I just ordered a 25' roll of aluminized mylar. My plan is to build a 1-2 m^2 parabolic trough concentrator, heating a closed-loop of either motor oil or corn gycol, flowing through a heat exchanger of copper pipe wrapped around the part of the fridge where the electrical heating element used to be.

    The beauty of using solar thermal power and a propane fridge, rather than using solar PV power and a compressor, is that you can cut out the middle man of electricity all together. That removes the expense of batteries, panels, charge controllers, all of which are more expensive and fragile than anything on the playa should be (although that said I'll be bringing my 2x40 watt panels to run a pump and fan). That also means a HUGE jump in efficiency, because a PV panel converts solar radiation into electricity with about only 10-15 percent efficiency, plus losses storing that in the battery, and running an electric motor with it, whereas a solar thermal system simply concentrates thermal radiation.

    The sun, supposedly provides an average theoretical equivalent of 1000 watts per meter squared. This is an average of course, but I can only assume that the playa in august is on the high end of that, if not above it. As far as I can find online, a propane fridge will draw 200-400 watts of heat continuously. Therefore I figure that with a 2m^2 panel, my panel would only need to be 20% efficient to power the fridge which shouldn't even be an issue considering my only losses will be insulation and reflectivity related, which is nothing compared to converting light into electricity. 2m^2 will hopefully be over kill.

    But let me admit that is all my armchair theory. I'm in the process of building this rig as we speak, and have done a lot of research, but I'm not one of those people who thinks their technical prowess is infallible. Is anyone else doing something/has done something like this? Anyone have any ideas? Anyone want more info? What could be more satisfying than turning the mid-day playa heat into popsicles WITHOUT electricity? I love this stuff, and will keep you all posted on my findings.
    • Re: A refrigerator on the playa

      Tue, August 4, 2009 - 11:44 PM
      Thanks Sam,

      Your project sounds really interesting and any plans, photos or directions you can share would be greatly appreciated.

      1000W per Meter squared seem pretty amazing. Sometimes I feel as though we are living in the stone ages.

      David

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