Good morning

topic posted Sun, April 13, 2008 - 8:48 AM by  Unsubscribed
On this beautiful Sunday morning I ask myself am I really a Pagan. I practice Chaos Magick and I worship Mother Earth. Does's that qualify me? Oh yes, I am Salamander Minion of the Olympic Pennensulia in Washington State.
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    Re: Good morning

    Sun, April 13, 2008 - 9:23 AM
    Why ask? Does the label really matter that much to you?

    Most people would say yes, but looking outward for other people to validate the label you want to use...why? The question isn't a cut-and-dried one as is the question "Am I really a Christian" because the definition of pagan is considerably more fluid and involved.
    • Re: Good morning

      Sun, April 13, 2008 - 11:50 AM
      Are you sure that 'am I Christian' question is really as cut and dried as all that? Few people wake up and suddenly ask if they actually are what they think they are - depressingly few Christians.

      Nimbrethil, self realization is a rare and wonderous thing. I am glad you posted this.
      • Re: Good morning

        Sun, April 13, 2008 - 11:51 AM
        woops - of course I meant 'Salamader' in that last post (brief confusion there - "one too many hits with the snake")
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          Re: Good morning

          Sun, April 13, 2008 - 12:03 PM
          The label is not important to me at all. I just wanted to intro meselves and start a conversing of minds.
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        Re: Good morning

        Sun, April 13, 2008 - 12:11 PM
        Yes, I do. Christianity has pretty solid precepts; even within the different traditions, there are certain things that can be said of Christianity with a fair degree of assurance. "Pagan" is a more nebulous term, whereas Christian is specific. "Waking up and suddenly asking if they actually are what they think they are" is a separate question. It could be argued that the fact that few Christians _do_ is an indicator of the cut-and-driedness. When Christians do, it is generally a crisis of faith--an asking "am I really as devout as I've always thought" or "What if it's not true?" Rather than a question of "I do x and x and x--does that make me as a Christian?"

        Didn't seem all that much to do with self-realization to me.
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          Re: Good morning

          Sun, April 13, 2008 - 12:20 PM
          To me self realization is a continuous process. Everyday we are learn more about our true nature once we are on that path.
        • Re: Good morning

          Sun, April 13, 2008 - 4:27 PM
          The terms ‘Pagan’ and ‘Christian’ are equally specific and vague. If under the heading ‘Pagan’ we include Wiccans (within whom you draw clear distinctions that prohibit their mutual), CR’s, Asatru, Druids — some of whom consider themselves also Christians — Crowleians and anyone who brings together various non-Christian, indigenous or earth-based religions, then likewise the heading Christian denotes Russian and Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, any form of Protestantism from Lutheran to Anabaptist, as well as the myriad “non-denominational”, charismatic churches from snake-handlers to shakers. Even the Cathars, Aryans and Gnostics have to be considered Christian as all these forms are unified by a common devotion to the figure of Jesus Christ — despite their being hunted out of existence by other Christians!

          To ask ‘am I a Catholic, Lutheran, or otherwise member of a specific Christian confession’ is a relatively easy question to answer — as is ‘am I CR, Wiccan, Asatru etc.’ — but to discover one’s core belief is in my mind much more difficult. To seek out whether one’s devotion is to the figure of Jesus or to an earth-based faith requires an investigation into how one’s naked mind is steeped in the ocean of our common reality. The only way I can think that such would be easy would be if the agencies of the heavens reached down and communicated it directly to the individual by way of revelation. If such were the case, then it was not the individual who arrived at the conclusion and the process itself maintains its difficulty. To move a mountain is still difficult even if the Gods move it for you.

          Anyway, I wax verbose. I assume that your comment, Nimbrethil, is based on the idea that there are more definitive differences between Christian sub-groups and Pagan faiths .i. there’s only one God for Christians, but one must chose from a set of pantheons or mixtures of panthea if one is Pagan. I would say that the subtleties of Christianity make lighting on one group over another more difficult rather than easy. There are significant differences between Pagan religions and only modifications of Christianity — even if some, like Gnosticism, are more distinctive than others.

          Here's a question for you. Would you consider Native American religions to be Pagan?
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            Re: Good morning

            Sun, April 13, 2008 - 5:38 PM
            <<<<Anyway, I wax verbose. I assume that your comment, Nimbrethil, is based on the idea that there are more definitive differences between Christian sub-groups and Pagan faiths .i. there’s only one God for Christians, but one must chose from a set of pantheons or mixtures of panthea if one is Pagan. I would say that the subtleties of Christianity make lighting on one group over another more difficult rather than easy. There are significant differences between Pagan religions and only modifications of Christianity — even if some, like Gnosticism, are more distinctive than others.>>>>>>

            For me it's that there are certain concretes that can be found within Christianity. Jesus Christ, for example, is _the_ central figure in nearly all Christian sects. It's worth pointing out that even though there are sects within which Christ's role is considered to be quite different from the mainstream, he is still in nearly all cases a very prominent figure at the very least. Likewise with Mary. Some consider her a holy figure, almost herself divine, whereas others assign her a more humble role, but in the majority of Christian sects she's accorded enough prominence for it to be a reliable expectation in most cases. Going beyond the personages within Christianity, there's, for one, the concept of sin. Most Christian sects believe in some variation on the idea of original sin. Not all agree on the details, but the concept of sin is damn near universal.

            None of this, near as I can tell, can be said of Paganism. There are far fewer common beliefs that can be said to be universal, or near-universal, to Pagans, and of those that are, they are less easily defined. The one thing that comes to mind is polytheism. Even then, there are a number of pagans who are monotheistic. For another, so many pagans _define_ what they mean by both polytheism and monotheism in wildly different ways. And you pointed out one characteristic yourself: though Wicca is by and large considered to be pagan, there are Wiccans who consider themselves to be Christians. The same is true of Druids. There are druids who consider themselves to be wholly pagan, and there are others who believe that druidism is a-religious and therefore persons of any religion can also be druids. Nebulous concepts...

            <<<Here's a question for you. Would you consider Native American religions to be Pagan?>>>

            I have two answers: one, I consider Pagan to be a rather broad term and in my view, any religion which is not one of the Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) to be Pagan. But at the same time, I consider it _very_ important for the individual to define themselves. So yes, with the caveat in mind that I don't speak for all pagans, I would answer that yes, I do consider American Indian religions to be pagan, but I would also quickly point out that it is my preference to let the individual define him- or herself. So if a given American Indian were to tell me that she or he saw their religion as _not_ Pagan, I would concede to their personal definition.
            • Re: Good morning

              Sun, April 13, 2008 - 8:10 PM
              I agree with almost all of these points, though it's new to me that there are Wiccans that consider themselves Christians as well (I was referring to the Druids at that point). You don't address my point that it is precisely because pagan faiths are so different that it's an easier question for the individual to determine of which confession or congregation they wish to be a part. This discussion began with your contention that it's easier to determine one's Christian faith than Pagan in opposition to my assertion that both are equally difficult. Is it not easier to determine which of several clear choices to take (A vs. B vs C) verses several very similar (A1, A2, A3 ...)?
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                Re: Good morning

                Mon, April 14, 2008 - 12:29 AM
                <<<<I agree with almost all of these points, though it's new to me that there are Wiccans that consider themselves Christians as well (I was referring to the Druids at that point). You don't address my point that it is precisely because pagan faiths are so different that it's an easier question for the individual to determine of which confession or congregation they wish to be a part. This discussion began with your contention that it's easier to determine one's Christian faith than Pagan in opposition to my assertion that both are equally difficult. Is it not easier to determine which of several clear choices to take (A vs. B vs C) verses several very similar (A1, A2, A3 ...)?>>>

                Re: Wiccans--there are some who refer to themselves as Christopagans who come from a Wiccan tradition. Still others call themselves Christian Witches. I've since moved and lost touch, but I used to know a couple of women who reconciled the practice of Wiccan magic to Christian beliefs and called themselves by the latter.

                I'm a little confused now by your question. I think the problem is that we're referring to two different things, because I was _not_ contending that it's easier to "determine one's Christian faith than Pagan". I was addressing the question "Am I a Pagan?" and NOTHING more, with my original statement. I was not addressing the question "Am I a Wiccan?" Or any other question about a specific religious sect. What I said--or I suppose what I tried to say--was that that's not an easy question for someone else to answer, because the definition of "Pagan" is considerably more vague and malleable than "Christian." At no point was I referring to people who want to belong to a particular pagan tradition. I think you're applying my statement where it wasn't meant to be applied, because I was _solely_ focusing on the question "Am I a Pagan?"
                • Re: Good morning

                  Mon, April 14, 2008 - 9:50 AM
                  Oh ... hm. It certainly wasn't my intention, but fair enough if I did.

                  Does that mean we are in agreement - arguing the same thing from different angles?
  • Re: Good morning

    Mon, April 14, 2008 - 11:03 PM
    Hi there! I hope this doesn't offend you but yes, you definitely "qualify" under our enormously diverse pagan family! Your practices definitely have a place in the pagan community as a lot of us do not discriminate others for being different in our philosophy, practice, ritual, worship, and way of life. I understand a lot of us aren't Christians, but I have friends who place Jesus Christ as the central of worship and are practicing angelic magic. There really are no specifics that make a person pagan or rule out a person from being pagan, really. :)
  • Re: Good morning

    Tue, April 15, 2008 - 3:51 PM
    Why do I have the words "pagan pagan pagan" to the tune of Rawhide running through my head? Hi Salamander... me new too :-)
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    Re: Good morning

    Tue, April 15, 2008 - 8:49 PM
    Thank you everyone for the greetings.
    Actually, I am everything, though I am nothing.

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