I cross posted this disccussion on to the Drum Circle... just to see if perhaps I am a bit judgemental... and to get some other opinion on the subject...

X

Xaviar-

I don't think the original post was meant to be hostile.. it was just Larry's opinion. Some people (myself included) would just prefer ME drumming only. It does seem like mixing sounds from all over the world would be too cluttered?

Respectfully,
-Rayana

If you find hostility towards bad drumming in my statements, then you're correct. I don't care for it and I won't participate in it.

I do teach, so noone can claim that I don't help folks learn how to play in ensembles. I'm willing to work with folks I've just met who are interested in playing, too.

I'm not interested in playing with folks whom I know to not have the skills AND not be interested in gaining them.

And to "believe like me" simply means they have to care about the music and respect other drummers enough to develop the skills to play nicely with others. That involves understanding their instruments and how those instruments fit into ensembles--or don't fit--and what roles are involved in playing in ensembles, even open circles.

I'm not going to walk into an open circle and start bossing folks around who aren't playing well--I find that notion abhorrent as it would be quite rude to do so. If I could expect the less-developed players to hear that their playing is interfering with the sound of the whole ensemble, then I could sit in and play and work to improve things by leading parts and encouraging players to embrace better playing.

The problem is, I know there are players who have been playing for years, lack ensemble skills, and don't follow the examples of other players. They can't hear how bad it sounds, and, due to their years of playing, assume they're just pretty damn good and aren't open to teaching.

To simply characterize me as an elitist snob is easy--and grossly wrong. Yes, I'm quite open in my dislike of poor playing. No, I don't expect everybody to be able to whip out every type of embellishment under the sun to play alongside me. The essential skills I care about are ensemble skills, primarily: knowing what role you're playing at a given time and listening to others while playing.

Those who can't hold tempo can play if they listen to those who can. Those who can't fill or embellish comfortably can play the base rhythm and hold that role and fit in perfectly. Those who want to fill can trade off the lead with others interested and everybody gets their chance to shine.

What gets avoided are the train wrecks: the tempo always sliding to the same moderately fast beat without regard to what it started as; everybody trying to fill at the same time so the group sounds like a bunch of chimps pounding on logs; the cowboys playing their drums too damn loud to fit in with the other players smoothly. Those are all signs of poor drumming, a lack of ensemble skills.

And I avoid groups not because of the lack of those skills, but because I know there are people involved who lack them and aren't open to anything different than what they've been doing. I can only expect poor drumming in those circumstances and I have greater respect for myself than to spend my time involved with that.

I've played with enough folks 'round here that can attest to the difference between bad playing and good playing--and the good involved many more novice players than advanced players. The key difference is that the players involved have all wanted to create good music and worked to fit into the ensemble.

You're free to regard me with as much ill-will as you care and it won't hurt my feelers a bit. I can only hope you show up some time in the future to a good circle in which I'm involved and hear the difference between that and the typical open circle. You're also free to ask my students and associates about how helpful I am and what differences they find between the typical open circle and a group possessing ensemble skills. It'[s my ambition to improve the state of drumming in Calontir and that involves teaching as many people as I can what good drumming is and how to play well in groups.

Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between passion and hostility. He is very passionate about drumming and about teaching people how to be good drummers. I have benefited from his instruction and have learned more in the past few months than I ever would have at open circles.

Open circles are fun party environs but there have been many occasions when dancers have said, I can't dance to this. I also have been to open circles where I couldn't "get into" the vibe because drummers where trying to hot dog or out do each other. In those situations, the only people enjoying themselfs are the ones who don't care about music and the hot doggers. That being said, I still enjoy open circles just for the chance to meet new people.

As for mixed instruments, I don't have much of an opinion on it just because I don't know enough intruments to have one but it does make sense to me that mixing rhythms, ME with African and all, could be torture if the people involved didn't work together ahead of time to iron out the kinks. I guess it would be akin to playing a rap song over Japanese opera without knowing where to time each intro. Theoretically it could be interesteing, or it could just give you a great big head ache and make your ears bleed profusely.
:)

Nameste

I agree with a lot of what Larry is saying about ensemble playing. In fact, I took a class about it at Pennsic this last year or was it two years ago. It was really educational in helping me understand where I fit in as a drummer when I walk up to a drum circle. Emrys, one of Master Daveed's apprentices, taught the class. It's true, often times people have a handful of classes and think they know everything (or they've had too much to drink) and can really screw up a circle. However, I think it is important that in the SCA we are all inclusive. I know when I first joined the SCA I felt very much an outsider for the first 5 years. As a dancer and a drummer I try to make everyone feel invited to join in. I don't want to be exclusionary or pretend I know more than others. Sometimes I even dance to bad drumming just to get things going. I also want to encourage both bad drummers and dancers to continue practicing so they will eventually get better. I was a bad dancer and a bad drummer at one time. Some might think I still am I still screw up on occasion. I think what people are having a hard time accepting in you statements Larry is you sounding exclusionary. It sounds like your saying because people play poorly you don't want to play with them unless it is in a controlled environment and you are the one doing the teaching. If you truly want to encourage everyone to be better drummers you must lead by example. I think Nakano does a wonderful job of this. I see him playing in all types of drum circles and people honestly play better with his promptiing and suggestions. He is also very tactful in his approach of "suggesting". If you had played with us at Good vs Evil I'm sure you could have made some suggestions that could have improved the drumming. I'm also sure that everyone there would have been willing to try your suggestions for a while. At one point noone was playing and I asked my troop sisters to play just for the fun of it cause we used to at Ren Fair and hadn't in a long time. We would have been happy to have you join us and make some suggestions to improve our playing at that moment. If you want to teach people or have them listen to you you have to be tactful. If you come off as a know it all most people aren't going to want to play with you. That doesn't mean you have to lower your standards. I think the issue people are having a problem with is tact. Do you really want to improve drumming in Calontir or do you want to have an exclusive group that you control?

What I find amusing in all this is simple. Discussions pop up in drum groups with some regularity about how to deal with djembe cowboys or doumbek cowboys--those guys who show up to circles and wreck the whole thing by not listening, playing too damn loud, and not holding tempo. The consensus of the group always comes 'round to "Pack up and leave and play somewhere else. Hope the other drummers who were playing well together come along."

The amusing part is that it seems if you announce that you actually do that, suddenly you're snobbish. If not wanting to play with a circle-wrecker means I'm a snob, well, then, I'm a snob. Last I knew, playing was supposed to be enjoyable, and if you weren't enjoying something, you were supposed to not do it. When did an obligation arise to play drums even when it's not fun? Life is too short and all that....

Furthermore, as noted previously, I'm more than happy to help folks figure this drumming thing out. What I won't do is walk into a circle that's already playing and begin bossing people around--that's rude. So now there's a Catch-22 involved: I'm rude if I walk in and take over and I'm a snob if I choose not to play. Damn! Not much of a choice there. Besides, the only folks with whom I choose not to play are those who have shown...um, reluctance...in the past to accept suggestions from me; that's entirely their prerogative, surely. When the suggestion concerns the quality of the sound and the experience of the group and they continue on with the behavior that wrecks things for everybody else, the choice is to endure the bad or step away. Most folks appear to simply endure and hope for better; I've been playing percussion in many forms for thirty-three years and choose otherwise.

So always remember that I want to play with most people. There are very few who wreck things--the cowboys--and they present a problem that many more drummers than just I have considered. The wisest course, as all those discussions have decided, is to walk away and play somewhere else.

I have been told that my descriptions of good ensemble playing are spread out in my posts and hard to follow. I figure to start a new thread just on that, in an attempt to point out what it is I'm talking about--and also what I'm not talking about.

Time to make the masses mad at someone else than Ainmere. He may not be tactful, but he ain't all bad.

I've been playing musical instruments of one sort or another for over 35 years. I've been an amatuer & professional vocalist both individually and with groups. In my 11+ years of ME drumming most of that has been in the SCA. I've drummed at events large and small (little teansie day events up to Pennsic circles) and have found it mostly enjoyable. When I started doing it I was interested in the music but more in getting invited to interesting parties and getting a front row seat at dance circles (love watching those shimmies). It worked then and still works. But now I'm more interested in the music and the emotions and dances that it inspires.

Before moving to Calontir, most of my "practicing" came at events as there was no organization to ME drumming anywhere that I happened to be at the time. After moving here a little over 6 years ago, I took a few of Nakano's classes at Lilies and found him to be a most gifted and inspiring drummer. As a teacher he was as good as any other non-trained educator in the SCA. Overall it was a goodness.

I've been priviledged to be in the presence of some great soloists with darbuka - Nakano, Ainmere, Braeden, and others. I am very thankful for the classes I've seen from Nakano. He's done a great amount in moving the individual Calontir drummer's skill levels upward. Some of the best drumming I've been involved with has been in Calontir - but also some of the worst.

What I am more thankful for, though, is the opportunity to drum regularly (at least weekly) with Ainmere and his students. Drumming for oneself is great, but nothing teaches group playing skills like playing with a group on a regular basis. Even if the "leader" of the group is not a good "teacher" or even is not such a great musician, the peer pressure of that regular group will keep your ego in check and usually let you begin listening to others in your group. Eventually you'll begin to know what you sound like as part of the group and not just as a musician. You become part of a whole greater than the sum of its parts.

It is through these long years of musical experience I have observed a few things about drumming in the SCA, not just in Calontir.
In general (there are, of course, exceptions) these are:

1) The average SCA ME drummer doesn't know the difference between any of the ME drums (they come in different sizes?) or the difference between the ME drums and African drums. They all go DOUM DOUM, right?

2) The average SCA ME drummer has had very little practice with their chosen drum, even less formal training and usually no exposure to playing with a group outside events.

3) The average SCA ME drummer can't read music, doesn't understand musical terminology, and has never played any percussion instrument not made of rattan before picking up their drum.

4) The average SCA ME drummer have little knowledge of the history or culture of ME music.

5) The average SCA ME drummer has only two volume settings - too soft to hear and too loud to be enjoyed.

6) The average SCA ME drummer is ready, willing and excited to drink alcohol, sometimes to excess, while drumming.

7) The average SCA ME drummer is more than willing to let someone else lead the circle and call the rhythms as long as the leader doesn't tell them how to play their drum. (This gets worse as the drummer gets more years under their belt as a drummer.)

8) The average SCA ME drummer either has no confidence in their ability or such an ego they are mostly intolerable.

9) The NOVICE SCA ME drummer is usually the most receptive of constructive criticism when given by a drummer they know or who has been given the seal of approval by someone they know.

10) The Experienced SCA ME drummer is usually the least receptive of criticism no matter how offered or by whom - especially if they've been drinking or if they're trying to impress someone.

11) The Experienced SCA ME drummer usually doesn't want to just play the basic rhythm no matter how much the other drummers need that help.

12) The average SCA ME drummer is very excited about every opportunity to drum for dancers.

13) The average SCA ME drummer doesn't know a lot of rhythms by heart, can't tell the difference between most of them, and is perfectly happy to play the same one they know over and over and over no matter how much it bores other drummers, the dancers or a crowd.

14) The average SCA ME drummer has never been exposed to the idea of musical parts, counter-point rhythms, listening to other instruments while playing, volume control, or proper instrument combinations.

15) The Novice SCA ME drummer is usually better at playing in a group than the experienced SCA ME drummer. My theory is that they don't have such an ego about their skill that they are more willing to blend and not be a hot dog.

16) The average SCA djembe player has no skill at playing with others and seemingly no regard for the sensibilities of those around them.

17) The average SCA ME Dancer will dance to whatever is being played when they go to a drum circle because 1) they may have never had the opportunity to hear a practiced drum ensemble and don't know the difference, or 2) it is likely the only game in town. So they seem to become desensitized to relatively "bad" drumming.

18) The average SCA ME Drummer becomes very defensive if told they are not playing well with others - which is what it seems to be assumed you are saying if you offer to assist or to take over the lead. This gets worse as the drummer gets more years as a drummer.

19) The average critic of SCA ME Drumming has never picked up a drum to find out just how hard it is to play one in an ensemble.

20) The average SCA ME drummer doesn't know the difference between drumming skills and ensemble skills.

Ok, I think that's enough for now.
It's not my intent to anger or offend anyone with this - but I'm sure it will. It's just my observations and opinions. And like all opinions - if you agree with them "they rock" and if you don't "they're crap."

I don't agree with everything others say either. It's what lets our culture grow.