have you read Simone de beauvoir`s book, `The Second Sex`?
If I remember CP mentiones her in her sexual personnae book, as she does Nietze. In her chapeter called `dreams, fears & idols`, she discusses also the reason that men fear women, using Nature as her logic, saying that the trouble of the spirit (male) is the price of development...!
......`he dreams of quiet in disquiet & of an opaque plentitude that nevertheless would be endowed with consciousness. This dream incarnated is precisely woman; she is the wished-for-intermediary between Nature, the stranger to men & the fellow being so closely identical`.
She also states that.....`If a little boy remains in early childhood sensually attached to the matriarchal flesh, when he becomes older, socialised & takes note of his individual existence, this same flesh frightens him, he would ignore it & see in his mother only moral personage. If he is anxioushe believes her pure & chaste, it is less because of amoral jealousy than because of his refusal to see her as a body..he is embarrassed & blushes when he meets with his friends, his mother, his sisters or any female relatives, because their presence calls him back to those realms of immanence whence he would fly, expose roots from which he would tear himself loose. His irritation when his mother kisses him or cajoles him has the same significance, he disowns his family, mother & maternal bosom.
He would have liked to have sprang to the world, like Athena, fully grown, fully armoured, invulnerable. To have been conceived & then born an infant is the curse that hangs over his destiny, the impurity that hangs over his being. And, too, the announcement of his death`!
The reason Jacq I quote all this, is how with such deep insight, do we relate this in understandable form to others. As because I have had sexual experiences beyond most (Dom) & because I have dealt with sexual confusions both as this & a counsellor....do we get people to understand their origins, the place of fear also & how it can affect their lives? I am a great believer in grabbing kids when they are very young to begin to comprehend this; but no children would truly absorb such complex yet simple basics? To even begin to approach this subject!
What are your thoughts. I think we owe it to ourselves firstly to wrap this around us...it could help tremendously the future of espcially sexual offending or even most sexual problems?
Do you see what I am getting at?
If I remember CP mentiones her in her sexual personnae book, as she does Nietze. In her chapeter called `dreams, fears & idols`, she discusses also the reason that men fear women, using Nature as her logic, saying that the trouble of the spirit (male) is the price of development...!
......`he dreams of quiet in disquiet & of an opaque plentitude that nevertheless would be endowed with consciousness. This dream incarnated is precisely woman; she is the wished-for-intermediary between Nature, the stranger to men & the fellow being so closely identical`.
She also states that.....`If a little boy remains in early childhood sensually attached to the matriarchal flesh, when he becomes older, socialised & takes note of his individual existence, this same flesh frightens him, he would ignore it & see in his mother only moral personage. If he is anxioushe believes her pure & chaste, it is less because of amoral jealousy than because of his refusal to see her as a body..he is embarrassed & blushes when he meets with his friends, his mother, his sisters or any female relatives, because their presence calls him back to those realms of immanence whence he would fly, expose roots from which he would tear himself loose. His irritation when his mother kisses him or cajoles him has the same significance, he disowns his family, mother & maternal bosom.
He would have liked to have sprang to the world, like Athena, fully grown, fully armoured, invulnerable. To have been conceived & then born an infant is the curse that hangs over his destiny, the impurity that hangs over his being. And, too, the announcement of his death`!
The reason Jacq I quote all this, is how with such deep insight, do we relate this in understandable form to others. As because I have had sexual experiences beyond most (Dom) & because I have dealt with sexual confusions both as this & a counsellor....do we get people to understand their origins, the place of fear also & how it can affect their lives? I am a great believer in grabbing kids when they are very young to begin to comprehend this; but no children would truly absorb such complex yet simple basics? To even begin to approach this subject!
What are your thoughts. I think we owe it to ourselves firstly to wrap this around us...it could help tremendously the future of espcially sexual offending or even most sexual problems?
Do you see what I am getting at?
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Re: Simone de Beauvoir/second sex.
Wed, November 30, 2005 - 11:32 AMi have not read this book, but i shall. i have been giving your post a think, and i'm not certain that i fully understand your thoughts. is it that you think we should educate young people about the psychology of sexuality? a noble venture, but would that be allowed in the public education curriculum?
the idea of men fearing women, it baffles me somewhat, yet i have seen this behavior. and i wonder what fears i have imparted to my son, raising him as a single parent, especially. one can only strive for consciousness and let go of negative patterns by facing fears and accepting what is.
i am at a loss to truly express myself on this. maybe you could provide some additional insight. aloha. -
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Re: Simone de Beauvoir/second sex.
Wed, November 30, 2005 - 2:34 PMwell, lynne, I had to come back for another go-round on this. women also fear sex, I think. do we women all have daddy issues? perhaps. sex is so natural and pleasurable, it is difficult for me to understand why we fear it. some are of the opinion that sex is our most base, animalistic expression. is it not also our most elevated, human state?
when one surrenders to the sensations, when pleasure is derived from pleasuring another, when one accepts the gifts of another, when one’s mind and body is fully in the moment – what is there to fear?
in western culture, there has been an artificial paradigm created around sex, where sex is power. this, I believe, has instilled fear in many, and overshadows the mystery of mother and son. the media increases the pressure, as we are bombarded with icons of physical perfection and steered towards modifying ourselves to meet those unrealistic standards.
my parents were open about sexuality, and I have a positive view of sex as a result. how this can be taught to others is beyond my scope.
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Re: Simone de Beauvoir/second sex.
Thu, December 1, 2005 - 1:40 AMJacq I am surprised you have not read this classic book! It was the pivotal book for feminism. Some feminists critised Simone because in her book they felt she did not tackle the roots of mans power, & seemed to them to have issue with the feminine body..but is`nt that what they say about Camille Paglia? A lot of fems believe that if a woman tackles this subject that she is anti-women in some way. I get accused of this often, but after all we are talking about women really, as women ourselves. The matter of men is for men...& so many can lead the way in human evolvement if only they would take responsibility for their own identity & not others. Who would really want to listen to someones saying they are marvellous & all else is shit? We have to acknowledge are differences as well as our strengths & weaknesses. Until we do our balance is out of sinc!
I am surprised also that you query men fearing women, does`nt CP explain this phenomenon within sexual personnae? Simone de Beauvoir does, which in part I put in my last post, but you really need to read the book to fully comprehend where she was coming from...the innate nature!
regards your situation, I think its important that we accept that even though sometimes we cannot offer say a male influence with a boy/son, but the family of man can, ie: male friends, relatives etc. Also we need to fill our head 7 soul with a bigger consciousness, a bigger opicture rather than delving too deep in emotional closeness protectiveness to our children. As a great deal of this energy is about our own lack of self-esteem or our own innate needs.
The first part of Simones book is about the psychology, sociology, myths, history etc of humankind, the second part is the female social journey & although it was written in the 40`s & some issues are slightly different, dress etc, codes...it is still a timeless peice, which I feel are the hallmarks of a great historical classic.
Women have far more pwer than they give themselves credit for. They hold the key to human condition within motherhood..so within this too they can unknowing create monsters as well. When I try & tackle this subject I now find it wearing, as it evokes anger or verbal attack at times...wasting precious energy trying to wade through the inadequecies & fears of women. Also women who are not mothers or are sexually attached to women create hurdles constantely...time is spend trying to overcome these hurdles instead of allowing the freedom of the course, thus enabling intelligent conversation & understanding to actually get somewhere. If you know what I mean?
We must always question not only ourselves but the environment we are in, this is progress! We cannot continue to blame. Blame others, blame our environment (cos, we cannot always change that immediately). We blame everything & everybody BEFORE we look at our own inability to absorb the new..or change. We are all on our own personal life journeys & adventure within each phase is integral. So it is`nt the journey that is to blame but the way we see that journey & how we deal with life ironies.
Fear is the major obstacle of most people, if not all. -
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Re: Simone de Beauvoir/second sex.
Fri, December 2, 2005 - 12:14 AMpardon my lack of reading feminist philosophy, lynne. my studies have taken me along other paths over the years, and i just haven't found myself all that interested in the topic. i became interested in cp more for her views on art, education, poetry, and pop culture.
i do not agree with all of cp's assertions regarding the fear men have about women. for her many pages of text about the sexual personae of women and men, her theories boil down to the same old "war of the sexes" viewpoint. this has kept me from reading feminist philosophy in general. i have never felt at war with men, despite negative encounters over the years.
<<Fear is the major obstacle of most people, if not all.>>
this statement is the crux of it, is it not? fear in all its various guises is the great destroyer, separating man and woman, child and parent, friend and neighbor. fear is created in many ways, and i suppose cultural mythos is one way. is this type of fear so deeply ingrained in all of us that we can never be free to just be? again, the answer is beyond my scope.
thanks for the invigorating discourse. :} -
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Re: Simone de Beauvoir/second sex.
Tue, December 6, 2005 - 9:49 AM' "war of the sexes" viewpoint. this has kept me from reading feminist philosophy in general. i have never felt at war with men'
read Germaine Greer:
'Women would find a world without men flat and savourless; it is men who dream of a world without women'
www.guardian.co.uk/gender/s...2,00.html
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Re: Simone de Beauvoir/second sex.
Wed, December 7, 2005 - 3:11 AM<<Women would find a world without men flat and savourless>>
this is also postulated by cp, that without men, there would be no great art, history would lack heroes, and western civilisation would not have progressed. the one great contribution of women, it would seem, is the ability to mother, yet it is this quality which alienates women from men. i personally would miss having men in the world, should they disappear.
<<it is men who dream of a world without women>>
this statement seems to contradict greer's earlier opinion that men use and perhaps need women as their 'audience' in order to not feel redundant. the focus of the feminists cited in this thread is on the biological dichotomy of gender as the basis of male fear and agression. while i see how biology comes into play in sexual personae, i wonder why it can be such a decisive component of male fear towards the female, and why this fear is so difficult to recover from. are we slaves to our physiology, destined to perpetual discontent and dysfunction? i hope not...
what i see in feminist philosophy is defining all the problems of sexual personae without offering solutions, and often laying blame for the problems exclusively on men. cp is different in some regards, as she disagrees with feminists on issues such as date rape and the media's influence on women.
i, too, would like to know about the de beauvoir/sartre connection. would you be able to provide some sources for this?
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Re: Simone de Beauvoir/second sex.
Tue, December 6, 2005 - 11:41 AMWhilst I do not fall into the perceived `warring` element of feminism, I think there is a `fear` based on a running away merged with a total fascination in men for women.
As a Dominatrix it is this fear/fascination that evokes the highest responses in men. It is something that has been apparent to me for most of my life.....so CP`s art/historical/myths elements as in Simone de beaviors book, are totally in sinc!
Its not a fear that a lot of people are aware of, its subtle as well as being blatent.....as in extreme polarities of sexual offending behaviour `the fear of the mother` is paramount to the offenders convictions!
I was also a counsellor for serious offenders for part of my life...which again just brought me back to this `inner fear` aspect. It also is a symptom of ego-sadistic-male/tribal behaviour. because I talk about these fears doesn`t mean that I am one-sidede or another. Some women think me anti-feale-body, when I talk about fears or percieved short-comings. This is because many take this personally instead of the manner it is intented.
I don`t read a lot of feminist stuff either, but as both with CP & SimonedB they point out the `lack` of female roots & history....which is part of what feminism is trying to claim. So extremes are always tested & played out fbefore we even know where the middle ground lies.
The fear aspect is grounded in most peoples basest instinct...sex! You start from there, because there is where it begins....its where we were first conceived...its the conscious beginning.
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Re: Simone de Beauvoir/second sex.
Tue, December 6, 2005 - 9:42 AM'Women have far more pwer than they give themselves credit for. They hold the key to human condition within motherhood'
I think that is an important thread, and an important connection to make between Paglia and de Beauvoir. Paglia really works that theme over and over again, it is fundamental to her outlook.
I have always found the relationship between de Beauvoir and Sartre interesting. Paglias thoughts on why she herself chose not to engage in a heterosexual relationship are also worth noting. -
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Re: Simone de Beauvoir/second sex.
Tue, December 6, 2005 - 11:43 AMI must read about their relationships, that is Satre & simone! I am not aware of the reasons why CP decided not to have a hetro relationship....please I am intrigued? -
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paglia maddex
Thu, December 15, 2005 - 11:15 AM -
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Re: paglia maddex
Thu, December 15, 2005 - 10:13 PMthis was a great interview! i especially enjoyed cp's statement about powerful men having a powerful libido, in reference to picasso. i agree with this for women as well. i think creativity, power, and sexual desire share a strong symbiosis. picasso was a player, however, and didn't always act out of honesty. but as long as everyone is above board, people should be free to act on their desires.
her statement about lesbianism being all about mom, was interesting. i hadn't thought about this dynamic before and wonder if it's true. does this mean that gays are all about dad? or is it that all sexuality is about the mother, or perhaps the power of birth and nuturing? -
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Re: paglia maddex
Fri, December 16, 2005 - 2:12 AMwww.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/egypt.html
www.gene-watch.org/programs...lity.html
allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html
www.davidmyers.org/Brix
Here are some links which at least give an indication that nothing is so simple....there can be many factors that influence our sexual preferencies......though for myself being multi-sexual rather that classified bi-sexual ( I just hate those boxed they try to push you in).....I personally think that the family dynamics are for me integral. I come from a distent, strict, over-bearing father & a strong, yet socially suppressed-creative mother. My fathers traits as with many other males in my life have disappointed me, though I have always understood my own over-compensation for a sense of male, gentle wisedom....but at the same time have always been grateful to my mother for allowing me a sense of beauty & inner strength.
The Oedipus & Electra complex do encompass ideas around early sexual disappointment I agree with! Though it is hard to own up to these effects your family has on you in later life.
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