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I'd like to pose a question to members of this forum. Do the Orishas (Orixas) evolve/change? If so, why is there such a fundamentalist (traditionalist) attitude or POV among many adherents? This is just an observation I've made. It seems like there's a lot of infighting about who's more traditional or more correct..or more ancient..etc.etc. As a newbie it has been quite a turn off for me personally. So I'm content to just serve my ancestors at this junction until the opportunity presents itself for more formal involvement.
So..are the ATR's static religions passed down from generation or are they dynamic and vital bridges to the One? While I'm not for mixing and matching and fabricating things all willy-nilly, I am open to and even embrace change. I'd love to hear what y'all have to say about this.
xoxo,
Khepher
**PS.I ain't trying to step on anyone's toes but as the saying goes "Throw a rock in a pack of dogs and the one that hollas is the one that got hit". So take my post in the spirit in which it was intended please.
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Re: To Change or not to Change...
Mon, January 16, 2006 - 6:18 AMHmm. Do the orishas evolve/change? Or do their followers? They'd better.
The systems obviously change. Lucumi is different from old world, is different from Candomble, is different from modern Nigerian. But as for the orishas.
Because each of us carries with us orisha "just" by being born (Ori), and we have a mission here on earth, when we die our Ori returns to Olodumare to report its progress and ultimately that Ori will return again to learn more, it seems Yoruba cosmology would support evolution, as it has an emphasis on spiritual progress and elevation. (Specific views on Ori will be different, I believe- but this is the main concept taught in Lucumi)
Ways in which we honor the orisha have to change of course as well- this one of the keys to surviving the diaspora. Casacarilla became used in Cuba instead of efun. Pumpkins were offered to Ochun instead of elegbede. Some Orishas became grafted onto others. Orishas are not immobile and static- they are mediators between the One and the Many. If we live, we change. If Orisha is a living tradition, it changes.
The minds of their priests are another thing. Fundamentalism is a danger to any religion. But so is solipsism. There seems to be a strange trend (I will call it the 'Protestant' trend- for reasons that may or may not be clear) to make traditional methods of religious expression be considered old and blind, and that a personal relationship can be sought without adherence to traditional means of worship. This is sad. The traditions are so rich- and they WORK. Contact, dialog, and transformation happen in these systems- they help their followers live and live well. But it is rarely a system that fails itself- it is the people. Strict blind observance without ever understanding WHY our traditions are the ways we are, where godparents do not teach their godchildren, and lack of knowledge is a considered a personal weakness (instead of a growth opportunity) to the point where people make up things rather than seek the answers from knowledgeable elders.
I hesitate to say it, but you cannot have a religion of priests. There will always be those who actually take their crown seriously and strive to evolve and change, for such is life. Just because someone has the money to make Ocha before someone else does not infer that they are more knowledgeable. Chinua Achebe said in 'Things Fall Apart' : " Old age is to be respected. Wisdom is to be revered."
The wise will always evolve.
My eight cents,
Jesse -
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Re: To Change or not to Change...
Mon, January 16, 2006 - 10:24 PM
Thanks for the response, Jesse. What you've written makes perfect sense to me. It is more about the priests/followers than the Orishas themselves. Perhaps as entities they have no need to evolve as we humans do since as in God, they are perfect? I dunno. I realize that only experience will solve these questions.
The Fundamentalism I was referring to is a symptom of a larger issue. It's not just in the ATR communities of course. I think it's just the status quo trying to cling onto power and a sense of stability. It is what it is..neither good nor bad. Thanks again for the input...it is greatly appreciated. -
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Unsu...
Re: To Change or not to Change...
Thu, January 19, 2006 - 2:17 PMI agree with alot of what Jesse said. I think it is human nature to want to feel superior than (fill in the blank) and constantly battle about whats "right" and "wrong". Which of course, is relative. Orishas are DEFINITELY constantly evolving because that is the nature of NATURE and thats what they represent. Unfortunately, the orishas get bogged down in the human qualities that humans give them. This is weird and incorrect because the orishas have no "feelings" ie. "Shango loves me" etc. etc. They are pure energy and represent the many aspects of nature which creates THE WHOLE. Nature works based on cause and effect plain and simple. If you play with fire you get burned right? does that mean "Shango is angry?"
The stories, fables, totems etc. using the orishas in human form are really a sophisticated way of relating otherwise complicated cosmological and philosophical concepts. You can read what many would consider a boring science/ecological textbook or read a pataki on the interplay between Oshun & Yemaya (fresh and saltwater).
I mention this to remind everyone to stay focused on what this is all about. High Science. If we stay focused than we cannot be intimidated or fooled by human politics, power struggles etc. and the spiritual stagnation that results from those things.
Many people have forgotten this basic knowledge of the Orishas and get all caught up in personas. For example, I went to a ceremony for Yemaya on the beach and many Aborishas left garbage and other debris on the sand! But these same people would never think of denying her a blue candle in front of a sopera. Uh....(laughing like Beavis and Butthead right now)
I even had a few former siblings in Ocha laugh at me because I was a "tree hugger" donating money to Greenpeace to stop deforestation (One of the ones who laughed at me was a Omo Ogun) Huh?
Anyway, you get my point.
Axe,
Tayannah D' -
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Re: To Change or not to Change...
Thu, January 19, 2006 - 5:26 PM<<I went to a ceremony for Yemaya on the beach and many Aborishas left garbage and other debris on the sand! But these same people would never think of denying her a blue candle in front of a sopera.>>
Thank you for saying this! I am glad there are others that feel this way. Perhaps this is a promising sign. Good for you for yoru greenpeace efforts- and I think community service should be part of the iyaworaje experience and the greater priesthood- not self service.
Thanks for voicing your thoughts,
Jesse -
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Unsu...
Re: To Change or not to Change...
Thu, January 19, 2006 - 7:53 PMYes! Jesse! Exactly...Community service...absolutely. What the hell is the damn point of all this if we don't SERVE by making this world a better place? I think it would be awesome if people use their natural Orisha energy to choose how they will affect positive change. The days of just "representing" for our own ile's or whatever is played out in my opinion. I think if people in the religion started making some waves and getting things done would shed a whole new light on what its all about for people who don't know or think they know.
I think everyone is getting a wake up call from Iansa to change. It's no accident that we are having all of these "natural disasters". However, I don't see it as a "punishment" (thats way too old testament for me) I see it as a reply. We get back the energy we put out. That's just the way I see things. -
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Unsu...
Re: To Change or not to Change...
Thu, January 19, 2006 - 8:19 PMIn Brazil some terreiros are involved in community service. One terreiro of Oxum opened up a center that takes care of children born with HIV. They print out a comic book showing the orishas such as Babaluaye and Oxum and AIDS education. I think that as priests and priestesses, we should be involved in helping the community. We could help causes that the orixas would care about. The orixas represent the forces of nature and Nature is being defiled and abused by humans. I agree that these natural disasters are a kind of wake up call, trying to let us know to stop messing with the planet. Also I think by these positive actions, the public could see our religions as postive and it may help dispell some of the negative stereotypes. -
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Re: To Change or not to Change...
Sat, February 11, 2006 - 12:32 PMThere is reference to this in the book "Os(h)un Across The Waters". Very inspirational.
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Unsu...
Re: To Change or not to Change...
Fri, February 10, 2006 - 4:28 PMYes community service and world service and planet service!!!! We all have seen the energy of recent really picking and changing and getting more close(?) and (at least here in philadelphia) very violent. I donate as much as I can of time and resources to help in many areas. However, I have experienced the political agendas much more whenever I bring this up to elders. The statement of "worry about yourself, and let everyone else get theirs" has been said to me a lot. And it really frustrates me because I see this tradition as beautiful, with teeth! It works! My warriors work for me. Why can't we all collectively pray for, put down adimus for, and do ebos for the community at large that we are a part of? Maybe as a babe in this tradition, I am not privy to certain things. It is just that this seems pretty basic to me.
Thoughts?
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