I read this today on a forum I read and wanted to post this here to stir discussion. I formally state that I take no sides other than in making sure what is called Golden Dawn remains true to the Tradition, a point of interest of a few public Orders. The intent of this post is to stir dialectic.
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The Fundamental Difference
Posted by: "aroueris26" enoch326@hotmail.com aroueris26
Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:03 am (PST)
It comes down to this:
What distinguishes the Golden Dawn Tradition from the Left Hand Path
is a belief that there is a Macrocosm that matters.
In Thelema, Chaos Magic and those pseudo-Golden Dawn Orders that are
kin to them in doctrine, the fundamental belief is that your Microcosm
is King. You define what meaning and power there is in a symbol. No
outside force can change what you put into it. You define what is
right and wrong for yourself. No other person, group or entity has any
say in the matter. Established and time-tested Tradition is
meaningless. All that matters is what you feel about a magical formula
and the rationalizations that satisfy you that it is acceptable as you
believe it to be. In fact, nothing is really required of these Left-
Hand Path practitioners save that they further themselves in
these "virtues" and empower Self evermore.
Traditional Golden Dawn practice, on the other hand, is an
equilibrated path. There is indeed a Microcosm, and it does effect a
great deal in your experience. But, there is also a Macrocosm. A
greater Universe beyond the self that also influences what is True and
what is False, what is Right and what is Wrong, and what a symbol's
power truly is outside of personal choice, human psychology and
cultural history. It is what unites us together as a whole Creation.
Indeed, the Microcosm is an equal player, but likewise, so is the
Macrocosm unavoidable. The Golden Dawn magician does not develop
magical formulae that feel good and cool and then find rationalizations
to back it up, for that merely serves the ego to over-ride Truth.
Rather, a Golden Dawn magician uses their magical power and practice to
seek selflessly and honestly after the Truth and how to apply it in
one's personal Microcosm in a meaningful way. But, as was learned
following the Great Schism, such a magician must not seek to impress
their personal enlightenment on another.
Left hand Path magicians, as individualistic as they purport
themselves to be, in groups tend to be quite controlling. They are
just more subtle about it. And, its not surprising for self is the
ultimate virtue in such a philosophy. For a magician to respect the
needs of another magician to grow in a time-tested Tradition without
personal alterations sullying it, they would have to be selfless.
Selflessness requires a belief that there is a Macrocosm that matters
outside the Microcosm. This is something a Left-Hand Path magician
lacks and in the end, no matter how loud their declarations that they
value selflessness so that they may sound good to themselves and
others, their actions speak the opposite.
It is selfless and right to provide new magicians with an unaltered,
time-tested Tradition and to allow them to interpret it in their own
way and apply it in their own lives as they discover their True and
Divine Will. This is the essence of true Golden Dawn practice. On the
other hand, it is selfish and controlling to do violence to a Tradition
in altering it significantly to fit one's personal revelations and
feeding it to many new minds as something it is not.
One example: Let's change the godforms of the Neophyte Initiation
and put an entirely different force on the Throne of the Hierus. Say,
Set for instance, because we feel its right and we have a long list of
right-sounding arguments to rationalize it. We may have had the
benefit of a Traditional Golden Dawn upbringing. But, our magical
experience and study has given us the authority and right to deny that
to others. And, to hell with anyone who says different! We will just
slam them every chance we get and with self-righteous protestations
demand an apology for their offense to our beliefs!
This example is like a priest walking up to the altar and turning the
Cross upside down stating that Judas Iscariot will now be worshipped as
the Messiah. Such a group, if it were to exist, would certainly have a
right to their beliefs, but they could not walk about claiming they are
Catholics with any degree of intellectual or spiritual integrity.
Likewise, those pseudo-Golden Dawn Orders who claim the name and
Tradition but also the authority to significantly twist it to their
personal revelations and serve it on a platter labeled "Golden Dawn"
lack intellectual and magical integrity. Regardless of how thoroughly
such groups have convinced themselves and others by argument of the
value of such changes. Its not Golden Dawn anymore. Its a new
creation, or possibly old, but certainly mislabeled and misadvertised.
And, those who do practice and serve within a Traditional Golden Dawn
Order have a right to complain. No consumer would put up with such
wholesale misadvertising in their material food and needs, how much
more so should neither spiritual seekers put up with it in their
spiritual instruction and guidance. And those in the know have the
responsibility to say so.
Xandyr
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The Fundamental Difference
Posted by: "aroueris26" enoch326@hotmail.com aroueris26
Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:03 am (PST)
It comes down to this:
What distinguishes the Golden Dawn Tradition from the Left Hand Path
is a belief that there is a Macrocosm that matters.
In Thelema, Chaos Magic and those pseudo-Golden Dawn Orders that are
kin to them in doctrine, the fundamental belief is that your Microcosm
is King. You define what meaning and power there is in a symbol. No
outside force can change what you put into it. You define what is
right and wrong for yourself. No other person, group or entity has any
say in the matter. Established and time-tested Tradition is
meaningless. All that matters is what you feel about a magical formula
and the rationalizations that satisfy you that it is acceptable as you
believe it to be. In fact, nothing is really required of these Left-
Hand Path practitioners save that they further themselves in
these "virtues" and empower Self evermore.
Traditional Golden Dawn practice, on the other hand, is an
equilibrated path. There is indeed a Microcosm, and it does effect a
great deal in your experience. But, there is also a Macrocosm. A
greater Universe beyond the self that also influences what is True and
what is False, what is Right and what is Wrong, and what a symbol's
power truly is outside of personal choice, human psychology and
cultural history. It is what unites us together as a whole Creation.
Indeed, the Microcosm is an equal player, but likewise, so is the
Macrocosm unavoidable. The Golden Dawn magician does not develop
magical formulae that feel good and cool and then find rationalizations
to back it up, for that merely serves the ego to over-ride Truth.
Rather, a Golden Dawn magician uses their magical power and practice to
seek selflessly and honestly after the Truth and how to apply it in
one's personal Microcosm in a meaningful way. But, as was learned
following the Great Schism, such a magician must not seek to impress
their personal enlightenment on another.
Left hand Path magicians, as individualistic as they purport
themselves to be, in groups tend to be quite controlling. They are
just more subtle about it. And, its not surprising for self is the
ultimate virtue in such a philosophy. For a magician to respect the
needs of another magician to grow in a time-tested Tradition without
personal alterations sullying it, they would have to be selfless.
Selflessness requires a belief that there is a Macrocosm that matters
outside the Microcosm. This is something a Left-Hand Path magician
lacks and in the end, no matter how loud their declarations that they
value selflessness so that they may sound good to themselves and
others, their actions speak the opposite.
It is selfless and right to provide new magicians with an unaltered,
time-tested Tradition and to allow them to interpret it in their own
way and apply it in their own lives as they discover their True and
Divine Will. This is the essence of true Golden Dawn practice. On the
other hand, it is selfish and controlling to do violence to a Tradition
in altering it significantly to fit one's personal revelations and
feeding it to many new minds as something it is not.
One example: Let's change the godforms of the Neophyte Initiation
and put an entirely different force on the Throne of the Hierus. Say,
Set for instance, because we feel its right and we have a long list of
right-sounding arguments to rationalize it. We may have had the
benefit of a Traditional Golden Dawn upbringing. But, our magical
experience and study has given us the authority and right to deny that
to others. And, to hell with anyone who says different! We will just
slam them every chance we get and with self-righteous protestations
demand an apology for their offense to our beliefs!
This example is like a priest walking up to the altar and turning the
Cross upside down stating that Judas Iscariot will now be worshipped as
the Messiah. Such a group, if it were to exist, would certainly have a
right to their beliefs, but they could not walk about claiming they are
Catholics with any degree of intellectual or spiritual integrity.
Likewise, those pseudo-Golden Dawn Orders who claim the name and
Tradition but also the authority to significantly twist it to their
personal revelations and serve it on a platter labeled "Golden Dawn"
lack intellectual and magical integrity. Regardless of how thoroughly
such groups have convinced themselves and others by argument of the
value of such changes. Its not Golden Dawn anymore. Its a new
creation, or possibly old, but certainly mislabeled and misadvertised.
And, those who do practice and serve within a Traditional Golden Dawn
Order have a right to complain. No consumer would put up with such
wholesale misadvertising in their material food and needs, how much
more so should neither spiritual seekers put up with it in their
spiritual instruction and guidance. And those in the know have the
responsibility to say so.
Xandyr
posted by:
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Unsu...
Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 10:23 AMMy thoughts on the supposed "Fundamental Difference":
All magic(k) is designed with the purpose of having an elite (in the sense that the practioner is different from the hoi-polloi) practioner affect change in the world. In other words all magic is "left hand path" magic.
When reading through GD practices, I got the sense that the ability to perform magic was validated by the aligning of one's will with that of a universal creator(s) , becoming an agent of It's will, so to speak. This outlook still falls into "left hand path" magic, because one is individually *deciding* what direction to take one's *will*. One is still deciding to be "better" than the hoi-polloi. It doesn't matter what kind of tinsel you drape on your motives, whether you're deciding to be a "white hatted enforcer of the Cosmic Will" or a "black hatted subjudgator of another's will", smugness is smugness. It's just kids deciding who's going to play the cops and robbers.
As for "'Xandyr's" whining about other "GD" orders. *Every* religion has believers who has chosen to interpret its dogma differently. I can't think of any religion which doesn't possess divergents, heretics, apostates and the like. This is because *no* religion can adequately approach reality and give a full message about it that works for everybody. "Xandyr", like every other zealot in history, wants desperately to believe that his particular religion is the full message.
But it ain't.
And it never will. -
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Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Mon, February 4, 2008 - 1:48 PMOkay, I really am pretty unknowledgheable about Ceremonial Magicks, but even I know that most people want so very desperately for their beliefs to be the only right and true way, the only true answer...I find it hillarious that while this will absolutely never be true, yet it doesn't stop people...welll, most of them. Thanks for the analysis of "Xandyr"'s post, it was very helpful!
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Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Sun, October 21, 2007 - 6:30 AMI'll discuss the substance shortly, but first on the style:
"Left hand Path magicians, as individualistic as they purport
themselves to be, in groups tend to be quite controlling. They are
just more subtle about it. "
This entire post was about attempting to change others way of doing things - albeit also quite subtle. Statements like this are simply holier-than-thou remarks which are quite hypocritical and meaningless. In any discussion, we attempt to get our point of view across. The virtue of "left-hand-path" magicians (a term used incorrectly in this post, incidentally), is that they admit it up front and make no bones about it. "right-hand paths" simply adopt the sanctimoniousness of the religious milieu that they have inherited. I think its important to say this before further discussion, because otherwise its going to be the usual form of discussion between conservatives and liberals. The former all preachy and moralizing because the "adhere to a higher standard".
So lets just admit we all believe we are in the right up front, OK?
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Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Sun, October 21, 2007 - 6:37 AM"Selflessness requires a belief that there is a Macrocosm that matters outside the Microcosm. "
"Liberals believe that there is no God, and they place themselves above the diviine, having the foolishness to believe that they can decide for themselves what is good, and what is bad" - various religious conservatives.
Its the same disgusting statement, coming from the same disgusting place.
"It is selfless and right to provide new magicians with an unaltered, time-tested Tradition"
Which is what, 100 years old? Cobbled together from a wide variety of conflicting sources by a neurotic, self-obsessed nerd? ("McGregor" Mathers).
At least the cobbled together tradition that is Christianity is 2000 years old. Therefore far better than the "McGregor" mishmash, yes?
This guy is beginning to make me regret starting to read his post, so I dont think I'll read any further; I'll simply make my objection to his basic point and move on.
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Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Sun, October 21, 2007 - 6:52 AMSO here is the basic point.
At an early age, I relaised that the tradition I was raised in, was one of thousands in the world. All claim to be correct and true, all are proven, or rather, not proven, in the same "time-tested" way. A fool believes that he just happened to be born in the one religion that is the true one - by chance.
It is a thousand times more likely that one of the other traditions is correct.
My personal next step was to realise that not one of the religions was likely to be correct, and that if truth exists, it is likely to be masked by the thousands of religions that exist. By masked, I mean that the same truth underlies each and every one of them, but whether you call God 'God" or "Allah" it makes no difference. Extending this, of course, we have to allow that "god" may be impersonal or personal, etc etc. until we get to the common denominator... a process which is almost impossible because to reconcile all religion, we have to dump so much baggage that we are left with something very intangible.
In fact, all that remains, is a human process, or set of human processes, of contacting the divine. We largely agree on the methods, but everything else is in smoke.
What this means is that we can put whatever face we like on our gods, even no faces, as the Buddhists do, who do not admit to the existence of Gods or the Soul, and it will be equally good. The "test of time" is that almost any system will do - so long as it conforms to various psychological principles.
"Create your own system or be enslaved by another man's" - Blake
What I am seeking to do, is to discover these principles, and to build on these principles, a mythology OF CHOICE, i.e. it doesnt really matter what I come up with, so long as it satisfies certain aesthetic requirements); The problem is to reconcile the "time-tested authority" psychological principle, with the liberal principle. Can we build a system in which we believe enough that it works, while knowing that its a phony? (as much a phony as all the rest, anyway?). Can one build a truly NEUTRAL religion?
Thats what I'm attempting. If youre interested, check out tribes.tribe.net/magicanova
The goal is to develop a system which s non-authoritative, yet coherent. Which is based on modern knowledge of psychological and scientific principles, but which uses the humanistic arts to make them live. -
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Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 3:51 PMThis person is not a religious zealot, he's actually just describing a quabbalist principle. In quabbalah there are a few differnt ways to get up the Tree of Life. The two most common are the "Way of the Magician" and "The Way of the Saint". The "Way of the Magician" is Malkuth-Yesod-Netzach-Hod-Tiphareth-Chesed-Geburah-Chockmah-Binah-Keter. Along with traveling directly up the left side of the Tree of Life (which in quabbalah is know as "The Way of the Demons", this is called a left-hand path specifically because one does not burn up the ego through the Path of Shin before ascending the rest of the Tree. This is the way that the Tree is asccended in Thelema for example. According to the quabbalistic tradition what happens is that as one attempts to pass over the Abyss into the Supernals the person is unable because there is a natural block that is put in between Geburah and Chockmah so that none may pass who have not sacrificed thier ego unto the higher. If you would notice this particular path does not follow the Path of the Flaming Sword, and is considered by some to be anti-thetical to creation. So, instead the person is thrown from the Abyss into annihalation. Now in Thelema this is the point where you are supposed to sacrifice your ego to Choronzon so that you may pass into the Supernals. There is a huge debate that can be started here, so I will just stay on this topic. However, in the "Path of the Saint" the ego is sacrificed early on in the individuals development. By taking the path of the Flaming Sword back up the Tree of Life one easily passes through into Abyss because he has been properly prepared up to this point. Xander was merely expressing that a person on a Right-Handed Path is a person who attempts to focus beyond themself and for the benefit of the Macrocosm, whereas in a Left-handed path the person tries to turn self into Self without sacrificing the ego until much later in the game. Just for informative purposes traveling specifically on the Right column of the Tree is known as "The Way of the Angels". It is said that hardly anyone ever travels up the two columns because it is entirely too difficult. Traveling up the left side is too severe of a path and can cause insanity, and in order to travel up the right you have to be almost completely purified, so travel up this side is very very slow for humans. -
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Unsu...
Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Fri, October 26, 2007 - 9:07 AMCeremonial Magic-Kabbalah is merely one method of organizing and describing reality. It is an attempted map of reality, not reality itself, and it appears very solid to one who has faith in it and full of holes to one who examines it closely, full of arbitrary and nonsensical decisions.
Furthermore we have extrapolations based on the *map of Kabbalah*, not on *reality itself*. A practioner should, by all means, be practical and find some way to experiment and relay observations based on hir work.
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Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Wed, November 7, 2007 - 2:54 PMAs a LHP practitioner, I do not agree with the statements concerning other LHP practitioners. In my opinion, it's much better to experience things for yourself. Maybe this person felt insecure around LHP knowledge and felt it was the practitioners themselves. I always tell those who are curious about the LHP but have heard horror stories, to join a LHP group and experience it for themselves. Only then can they truly make a judgment as to whether or not to further their interests. ;)
If, by some chance, there is anyone interested in the LHP, feel free to visit LHPForums.com. We won't bit, promise ;) -
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Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Wed, December 5, 2007 - 12:39 AMyou know I have to agree,The LHP has for a long time been shrowded in mystery and devil worship because poor lowlifes give it its bad meaning and GOD lovers label it in correctly crowley hid his LHP under love and will to dare without discussing the hidden virtue of what he sought, he was a drug'd ittiot and a faget in my words of describing him I never got much into his work even his translation of the enochian keys to him were right but also lacked in pronunciation,I have to say the GD is apart of the LHP but under the rug and above white shrowded alters.I label nothing LHP or RHP, were your will lies is what you will find.Just because you call demons or better yet entities forth
does not make you a LHP practionor,Or cursing and pentagrams evil I always find my own symbols to describe my experiance and the pentagram is one because its meaning is many things, but far from being evil.Magick is what you bring out of it and what you get in return is produced by what you call.For chaos theory will only misguid and confuse if you look hard enough you will find what you look for. -
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Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Wed, December 5, 2007 - 12:32 PM<<he was a drug'd ittiot and a faget in my words of describing him I never got much into his work>>
oh, good. so you're very versed, and your opinion should be taken very seriously.
fucktard.
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Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Mon, February 4, 2008 - 10:25 PMLHP...are you in NYC....
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Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Tue, November 20, 2007 - 8:28 AMDo what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
a few brief things:
number one:
"What distinguishes the Golden Dawn Tradition from the Left Hand Path
is a belief that there is a Macrocosm that matters.
In Thelema, Chaos Magic and those pseudo-Golden Dawn Orders that are
kin to them in doctrine, the fundamental belief is that your Microcosm
is King...."
first of all - psuedo-golden dawn orders?
*snort*
and, as any magician worth his forty and found would probably tell you, As Above So Below. this macro is more than micro and vice versa is pure, puerile nonsense and should be flushed with the rest of the old aeon :P
Number two:
"Established and time-tested Tradition is meaningless."
as a thelemite, i'd say "With my claws I rip the flesh from Indian and Buddhist, Mongol and Din!" the flesh of the traditions is quite important; we just don't pretend it's anything more than food.
"It is selfless and right to provide new magicians with an unaltered,
time-tested Tradition and to allow them to interpret it in their own
way and apply it in their own lives as they discover their True and
Divine Will."
osirian nonsense. this is not the aeon for selflessness!
"For a magician to respect the needs of another magician to grow in a time-tested Tradition without personal alterations sullying it, they would have to be selfless."
...here's a magician who needs to have liber Oz explained to them...
"This example is like a priest walking up to the altar and turning the
Cross upside down stating that Judas Iscariot will now be worshipped as
the Messiah. Such a group, if it were to exist, would certainly have a
right to their beliefs, but they could not walk about claiming they are
Catholics with any degree of intellectual or spiritual integrity."
first of all, there is a group within mainstream catholicism that does use and wear an inverted cross - it's called the order of saint peter. reseach! it's amazing what you can learn! also, who cares?
also, the whole original post reeks of dogma and monotheistic attitudes.
finally, there is no difference whatsoever between the left and right hand paths below the abyss. :P
Love is the law, love under will
sororally,
lux in homine factum -
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Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Tue, February 5, 2008 - 5:49 PMWonderfully put! I am glad to see that there are others that research and find factual information and not just spout what they think or feel they know.
{C}
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Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Mon, February 4, 2008 - 10:23 PMfunny some folks won't know a LHP if they came up and bite them in the bare bottom...yet they make sweeping statements.
Why are people so afraid of what they don't understand?
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Unsu...
Re: Tradition vs. Left Hand Path
Sat, February 16, 2008 - 2:34 AMHi all,
I just had to join this tribe to comment on this thread, very interesting and good to know there are so many true seekers.
Well all this left hand right hand stuff has gotten, well, out of hand! It seems to me, without drawing from any dogma, that the right hand is feminine and the right is masculine (!!!) because:
1.Most people are right handed and this holds the tool, sword and the phallus.
2.The left hand lays low in non-action, it is passive and unknown yet all are born from it.
3.The left holds the grail, or golden bowl, it is the receptacle, sheath and mother of the ten-thousands things.
4.The right sows the seed and this is true of men and women
It is only when harmony is attained that the mystery of the “one handed clap” is revealed.
LOL
